What Will Make You Come Back to Spider-Man?

[Huntsman Spider]

The marriage is done, it ended 14 years ago; it’s as much an “achievement” as any other storyline or period. It started as a gimmick to push sales up, it ended with a silly retcon. A large part of the stories that happened during the marriage years are quite forgettable in fact most of people don’t care for them, and honestly the marriage was quite inconsequential to many of the best ones; aside a small contingent of people that mostly like it because they started reading spider man during the marriage years nobody really cares about it or longs for it.

Even if all that was true, that doesn't make bargaining with the in-universe equivalent of the Devil himself to wish it out of existence ok. I mean, sure, divorce sucks, but it'd have been a better, simpler solution, especially after the harrowing of Civil War and Back in Black, for Peter and Mary Jane to split up because Peter felt like all he'd brought into MJ's life was pain and misery and death. But trading their marriage to Mephisto as the "price" of saving Peter's aunt May from the consequences of Peter's own decision to trust Tony Stark enough to publicly unmask as Spider-Man was a betrayal of the very core of Spider-Man --- which wasn't being a swinging single twentysomething bachelor, but someone who swore to never shirk the great responsibility that came with his great power after his negligence and apathy towards a seemingly common thief cost the life of his uncle Ben. "Oh, but it's ok because now Spidey's not being held down by the millstone of marriage anymore"? Very well, then.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

The marriage is done, it ended 14 years ago; it’s as much an “achievement” as any other storyline or period. It started as a gimmick to push sales up, it ended with a silly retcon. A large part of the stories that happened during the marriage years are quite forgettable in fact most of people don’t care for them, and honestly the marriage was quite inconsequential to many of the best ones; aside a small contingent of people that mostly like it because they started reading spider man during the marriage years nobody really cares about it or longs for it.

Jameson laugh.jpg

Luke Every Word is Wrong.jpg

[Spider-Tiger]

The marriage is done, it ended 14 years ago; it’s as much an “achievement” as any other storyline or period. It started as a gimmick to push sales up, it ended with a silly retcon. A large part of the stories that happened during the marriage years are quite forgettable in fact most of people don’t care for them, and honestly the marriage was quite inconsequential to many of the best ones; aside a small contingent of people that mostly like it because they started reading spider man during the marriage years nobody really cares about it or longs for it.

The vast majority of Spider-Man stores in general are quite forgettable regardless of the era or status quo. There are only a select few in each era that consistently make it to "best of" lists.

And there are several stories from the marriage era that are held in high regard. The first half of the JMS era which hinges on the marriage is actually quite popular, and I often see it recommended. But most especially, the near universal praise of Kraven's Last Hunt which hinges on the the Parkers being newlyweds would beg to differ. Even the recent popularity of Spider-man Life Story would beg to differ.

[Spider-Tiger]

Personally I think super heroes comics works when there is change but this change doesn't impact the foundational elements that makes a character work.

Foundational is all very subjective.

To me continuity and "growing up" is foundational to the Spider-man mythos since he was what...15 when the stories began? And within the first 150 issues or so got his first paying job, graduated high school, started college, moved out of his childhood home and found a place of his own, moved on from his childhood crush and fell in love, considered marriage, lost his first love, etc.

To me the romance of Peter and MJ is also foundational since she was teased throughout the Ditko era, had her iconic introduction in the Romita Era, consoled Peter after the death of Gwen in the 70s, revealed she knew Peter was Spider-man (and subsequently became Peter's first true confidante) in the 80s, etc. The story of their relationship marks a series of important milestones in the Spider-Man mythology.

The marriage between the two was true to both of these elements.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

The vast majority of Spider-Man stores in general are quite forgettable regardless of the era or status quo. There are only a select few in each era that consistently make it to "best of" lists.

And there are several stories from the marriage era that are held in high regard. The first half of the JMS era which hinges on the marriage is actually quite popular, and I often see it recommended. But most especially, the near universal praise of Kraven's Last Hunt which hinges on the the Parkers being newlyweds would beg to differ. Even, the recent popularity of Spider-man Life Story would beg to differ.

As this poster pointed out clearly:

The problem with Spider Man is that is basically broken, by gimmicks like the marriage and the clone saga.

The marriage can't be simultaneously inconsequential and yet have an impact as to "break" Spider-Man to use the phrase. This kind of stuff doesn't happen in the quantum realm where measuring one thing means you are uncertainty about the other. Whether you are using the word "break" or saying that the marriage contributed or built the character and continuity, that means the marriage was in fact consequential any way you slant it. Even Mark Waid, who agreed to ending the marriage admitted around 2018, that it would always be "the elephant in the room" and the debate about it will never go away.

The fact is that the stories after OMD are simply not good enough to validate or legitimize such a move. When Peter went to high school, people might have doubts about him graduating, but here's the thing the first story with Peter graduating high school was The Master Planner Saga. In other words, an instant masterpiece that only can work with a Peter who left high school as Steve Ditko affirmed himself, the entire story was built around him growing up. When Peter got married, you had Kraven's Last Hunt, a story that as J. M. Dematteis himself said really centered on the marriage emotionally.

When OMD happened, we got...<crickets chirping>, i.e. we didn't get "The Master Planner Saga" we didn't get "Kraven's Last Hunt" that one universal immediately accepted and consensually embraced masterpiece that everyone agreed only made sense with the retcon. What we got was at best retrostories of the kind done better by Stern and Defalco (including the stuff Stern came back and did, vastly weaker than his old stuff), or stuff like "Unscheduled Stop" which was well done as a 2-parter but certainly a story that could be told in any issue of Spectacular Spider-Man in the '80s, not something that needed a reboot to have done so. OMD doesn't have that legitimacy, so the debate about the marriage is never going away.

[PCN24454]

As this poster pointed out clearly:
When OMD happened, we got...<crickets chirping>, i.e. we didn't get "The Master Planner Saga" we didn't get "Kraven's Last Hunt" that one universal immediately accepted and consensually embraced masterpiece that everyone agreed only made sense with the retcon. What we got was at best retrostories of the kind done better by Stern and Defalco (including the stuff Stern came back and did, vastly weaker than his old stuff), or stuff like "Unscheduled Stop" which was well done as a 2-parter but certainly a story that could be told in any issue of Spectacular Spider-Man in the '80s, not something that needed a reboot to have done so. OMD doesn't have that legitimacy, so the debate about the marriage is never going away.

By some people, not all.

I still, to this day, say that KLH is massively overrated. Tellingly, Kraven doesn't seem to exist until that story.

You want to argue that the later stories aren't worth losing the marriage, fine, but the previous stories weren't that great either.

[PCN24454]

Get rid of Boomerang. He adds absolutely nothing to the story.

[Darthfury78]

Get rid of Boomerang. He adds absolutely nothing to the story.

I doubt I'm the exact audience for this thread, because I haven't stopped buying Spidey comics: I just wait long periods of time and buy trades, either from my local con or online. But I don't find it hard to like Spidey comics, or comics in general. Usually, I'm able to find something I appreciate about an issue, an author, an artist, etc -- even if there are aspects about the work that aren't my cup of tea.

But! I can answer this: What would make me buy each new issue on a month to month basis, like I did as a kid?

1) Ben Reilly appearing regularly
2) The Slingers appearing
3) maybe Kaine

-Pav, who has no problem waiting for anything else...

You got a point. What also would make me pick up Spider-Man again are as follows:

1. Black Widow and Jessica Drew appearing in a reoccurring guest spot respectively.
2. More villains from other parts of the Marvel Universe becoming a threat.
3. Focus on other locations (besides Manhattan) to include Brooklyn and The Bronx.
4. Have Tigra(NYPD) and Jennifer Walters appearing regularly in civilian roles on the legal side of the law.

[Celgress]

Fair point. I'd say the things that are currently happening in Spider-Man are, by and large, attempts to fix or at least finally address what was broken by One More Day, which was rooted in certain people's fears of Spider-Man/Peter Parker changing too much from where and how he'd started out or where they preferred him to be and resulted in those same people forcing him (back) into their idealized status quo for him, even if it meant betraying the character's core ethos. That was what really broke Spider-Man --- not growing up, or getting married, but spitting in the eye of "with great power, there must also come great responsibility" by making a literal Faustian bargain to avoid the repercussions of his actions.

I couldn't have put it better myself.

[Celgress]

Get rid of Boomerang. He adds absolutely nothing to the story.

I'm down with this. I detest the parasite. He is obvious only taking up space simply because he is Spencer's pet character.

[Unspeakable Evil]

You got a point. What also would make me pick up Spider-Man again are as follows:

1. Black Widow and Jessica Drew appearing in a reoccurring guest spot respectively.
2. More villains from other parts of the Marvel Universe becoming a threat.
3. Focus on other locations (besides Manhattan) to include Brooklyn and The Bronx.
4. Have Tigra(NYPD) and Jennifer Walters appearing regularly in civilian roles on the legal side of the law.

Starting to sound like a set-up for a Spider-Man harem

[Jman27]

Starting to sound like a set-up for a Spider-Man harem

I mean he already has one just not with a ton of super heroes

[Kaitou D. Kid]

Calling the marriage years forgettable seems unfounded to me. The JMD and JMS runs are two of the most memorable runs in all of Spider-Man history, and both were high-selling on top of that.

Not to mention all the other successful Married Spider-Man stories we had prior to OMD like To Have And To Hold, Marvel Knights: Spider-Man, Blue (Peter and MJ are married in it for a bit), Life Story, and a lot of Paul Jenkins' run.

Also, two of the most successful current iterations of Spider-Man (Insomniac and ITSV) feature an older Spider-Man living together with MJ either as a married couple or soon-to-be.

The idea that most people don't like the marriage always seemed more like projection than anything based on truth.

[Max_Mercury]

The idea that most people don't like the marriage always seemed more like projection than anything based on truth.

Right, and nobody projected that harder than Joe Quesada. All of the Brand New Day writers (except for Mark Waid) have said they didn't need to have an unmarried Peter Parker to write the stories they wanted to write.

[Darthfury78]

Interesting stories...