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  1. #46
    My Face Is Up Here Powerboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Could try borrowing the DVDs from the public library.
    I'd actually rather try renting or buying on Amazon if they are there than wait months and then have a narrow window to watch every episode.

    And yet the early TNG seasons, which where the purest expression of that, sucked.
    Opinion. I'll grant that the first season wasn't so good if only that most episodes were remakes of TOS episodes. But the 3rd season and the 4th may have been the strongest of the series. It really got bad when it started transforming from Roddenberry's vision to Berman's.

    Not a fan of the streaming-first, to be fair.

    Which it does. At most, DSC and PIC deconstruct and reconstruct the franchise's values (which, considering the ugly truth that Americans have had to face about our society and the myths regarding how enlightened were actually were, it's a pretty timely subject).

    TOS was Trek for the '60s, TNG/DS9/VOY was Trek for the '90s. ENT and the Kelvin timeline were for the early 2000s (when they weren't being fan service to the past). DSC and PIC is Trek for the now, which is what it should be. In its purest form, Star Trek was about the human condition and a mirror to society. There was fun sci-fi stuff along the way and the franchise certainly framed everything from the mindset that progressivism and working to a better future was what we should strive for, but the commentary and themes were always about the now. The shows hit on some timeless stuff that's kept them relevant over the decades (and been the reason the franchise has never truly rebooted), but it's still always of the times. Execution may vary and all that, but DSC and PIC are doing exactly what Star Trek has always done, what's its always been. Maybe now, we don't need a parable about how the future will be perfect, but about even when societies and institutions fail to live up to their values and become corrupted by those who would twist them for their own gain, that those values are still work fighting for and that even a flawed system can be still steered toward a better future. That's not a theme of dystopia. That's a theme of hope; that's what Star Trek is about.
    That's valid and, having not seen the shows, I can't comment as to whether or not they are Dystopian.
    Power with Girl is better.

  2. #47
    My Face Is Up Here Powerboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    This smacks of presentism something Trek was never about. Trek was about showing us that things would get better not about wallowing in the corruption of today. I don't need nor want presentism in my sci-fi. If you do fine, but I'm not interested. I'd rather be an optimist than a pessimist any day.
    True. Star Trek tackled the issues of the day- racism, overpopulation, sexual orientation bigotry (the Provider)- and so on. But it did it from the point of view that the human species had mostly conquered those things. They were explored through other species on other worlds still having such problems. Rather than getting bogged down in minutiae and arguments back and forth, it just said we've overcome such nonsense and you are a primitive society for still holding these views. We are not going to entertain your absurdities as if they are remotely a valid point of view.

    I don't know what Discovery and Picard have done, of course. I hope they are not presenting these things as current problems for humans in their time.

    I'm okay with DS9 because it was making a point that is core to the very survival instinct, that you'll fight like hell and even kill to survive, regardless of the time.
    Power with Girl is better.

  3. #48
    My Face Is Up Here Powerboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    True, the bad stuff was always outside. The Federation itself was shown to be a great place to live with values of freedom & equality.

    This is, in fact, my favorite episode of TNG.

    My favorite of TOS is "The Empath" simply because, as one of the aliens himself says: You three have been her teachers. You have demonstrated all that is good in humanity and, indeed, any sentient species.

    OOPS. Responded to the wrong episode. I meant that "Who watches the watchers?" was my favorite.
    Power with Girl is better.

  4. #49
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powerboy View Post
    I'd actually rather try renting or buying on Amazon if they are there than wait months and then have a narrow window to watch every episode.
    Sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Powerboy View Post
    Opinion. I'll grant that the first season wasn't so good if only that most episodes were remakes of TOS episodes. But the 3rd season and the 4th may have been the strongest of the series. It really got bad when it started transforming from Roddenberry's vision to Berman's.
    I could be mixing things up with early TNG's commitment to Roddenberry's idea that humanity had achieved perfection, so there could be no interpersonal conflict (which robbed the early shows of stakes and nuanced characters, etc.). I know that evidence that Rick Berman wasn't not that good a person has come up since and I think there is a case that the franchise needed new blood after TNG, DS9, VOY, and ENT went on for over a decade with a lot of the same people managing things. All that said, never really noticed that Berman had a specific vision, per say.

    Quote Originally Posted by Powerboy View Post
    That's valid and, having not seen the shows, I can't comment as to whether or not they are Dystopian.
    Thanks. Saw PIC and am going through DSC currently. I'll agree that it's not as light and happy as some of the older shows, but I'm liking the new shades and perspective.
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  5. #50
    Astonishing Member ChrisIII's Avatar
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    I wouldn't say Trek's future has always been perfect, even within the Federation/Starfleet.

    For instance, several episodes of practically all the series and a good chunk of the movies feature corrupt members of starfleet or the Federation. I think there's actually a Deep Space Nine episode where Earth comes under starfleet martial law briefly.

    Even in the relatively peaceful TNG era there's been a recent conflict with the Cardassians (Which pretty much heavily informs DS9 and the earlier seasons of Voyager).

    Also wasn't Tasha Yar from a Federation colony that went bad?
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  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisIII View Post
    Also wasn't Tasha Yar from a Federation colony that went bad?

    It was really "bad' per se, but it was a failed Earth colony that erupted into a civil war and broke away from the Federation.

    But yes, I'll be watching Strange New Worlds. I'm a bit weary because I feel the quality of Discovery/Picard has been very inconsistent. But Pike was one of the highlights of Discovery and who doesn't like Rebecca Romijn?

  7. #52
    Mighty Member Dr. Skeleton's Avatar
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    Uh, I don't get the hate both Discovery and Picard is getting. I'm just glad it's not in the Abrams Universe. Guess there's just no pleasing anybody anymore. I enjoyed that it's more true to the original series. I'm definitely looking forward to SNW. Love me some Mr. Spock and can't wait to see what else Ethan Peck can do with the character.

  8. #53
    Astonishing Member ChrisIII's Avatar
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    https://www.startrek.com/news/breaki...igy-first-look

    First look at Prodigy. I'm thinking the big guy *might* be a new take on the Horta.
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  9. #54
    Boisterously Confused
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Skeleton View Post
    Uh, I don't get the hate both Discovery and Picard is getting. I'm just glad it's not in the Abrams Universe. Guess there's just no pleasing anybody anymore. I enjoyed that it's more true to the original series. I'm definitely looking forward to SNW. Love me some Mr. Spock and can't wait to see what else Ethan Peck can do with the character.
    I'm with you. I'll admit that Burnham's depiction gets on my nerves, but I never thought DIC bad. PIC took some getting used to, but I enjoyed it.

  10. #55
    Mighty Member Castle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    I'm with you. I'll admit that Burnham's depiction gets on my nerves, but I never thought DIC bad. PIC took some getting used to, but I enjoyed it.
    Dis and Picard are a whole of awful when we are talking best Trek. It's CW generic type of shows, Will strange new world follow that part? likely. However Strange new World has a secret weapon. Anson Mount as Captain Pike.

    Discovery season 3 became unwatchable because there was no Pike, No Spock and No Gergiou to anchor the show.
    Last edited by Castle; 02-25-2021 at 02:19 PM.

  11. #56
    The Superior One Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Skeleton View Post
    Uh, I don't get the hate both Discovery and Picard is getting. I'm just glad it's not in the Abrams Universe. Guess there's just no pleasing anybody anymore. I enjoyed that it's more true to the original series. I'm definitely looking forward to SNW. Love me some Mr. Spock and can't wait to see what else Ethan Peck can do with the character.
    Suppose you grew up loving the Big Mac but then they stopped making those and only made McChicken instead. When you asked what happened to the Big Mac they told you to shut up and take your business elsewhere because you're a "McChcken hater". How would you feel? Would you ever trust the mangament there again?
    Last edited by Celgress; 02-25-2021 at 02:55 PM.
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  12. #57
    Chad Jar Jar Pinsir's Avatar
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    I saw an advertisement for this Prodigy show and didn't even know it was Star Trek, holy crap that is not a good sign.
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  13. #58
    Mighty Member Dr. Skeleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    Suppose you grew up loving the Big Mac but then they stopped making those and only made McChicken instead. When you asked what happened to the Big Mac they told you to shut up and take your business elsewhere because you're a "McChcken hater". How would you feel? Would you ever trust the mangament there again?
    Not sure if you're referring to Abrams' Trek or the recent shows, but Abrams is more like the "New Coke" of the franchise for me and had no idea how much they were gonna muck with it. I only had a problem with the Klingons' looks as I don't know if it was the result of the "virus" as was indicated from the Enterprise show or if it's a different breed. If they appear in SNW, we'll see if it's gonna be the previous ones or the 60's versions. I just want it to be good.

  14. #59
    The Superior One Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Skeleton View Post
    Not sure if you're referring to Abrams' Trek or the recent shows, but Abrams is more like the "New Coke" of the franchise for me and had no idea how much they were gonna muck with it. I only had a problem with the Klingons' looks as I don't know if it was the result of the "virus" as was indicated from the Enterprise show or if it's a different breed. If they appear in SNW, we'll see if it's gonna be the previous ones or the 60's versions. I just want it to be good.
    Abrams' Trek didn't bother me it was merely a Star Wars sci-fi action wanna-be. It is the new raft of TV shows I detest.

    As I've said, I'll now wait for the consensus before I give any Nu-Trek series a watch.
    Last edited by Celgress; 02-25-2021 at 06:57 PM.
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  15. #60
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisIII View Post
    https://www.startrek.com/news/breaki...igy-first-look

    First look at Prodigy. I'm thinking the big guy *might* be a new take on the Horta.
    Doesn't look like a Horta.
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