The Zack Snyder's Justice League *Respectful* Film Discussion

[Rev9]

I don't recall Marvel though having flying sex toys in the middle of a big dramatic FX scene though. So....maybe that gravitas isn't quite so much. Also..."Martha!"

I personally see that as Zack's unsubtle hint that this movie is about birth and fathers (Jor el/Johnathan) as opposed to BvS being about death and mothers(MarthaK/MarthaW). Plus in film Kryptonian society was all about eugenics and artificial population so it wouldn't be surprising for them to either mock or revere what they saw as obsolete 'imperatives'. The 'Martha' moment is baseline human reaction, you either get it or choose not to.

[Rev9]

Snyder's Superman never cemented himself in pop culture the way Nolan's Batman or Gal's Wonder Woman did so I don't see this version influencing the way people see the next one. By the time a new Clark Kent Superman graces the big screen I honestly doubt the general audience will give the previous version much thought.

only time will tell

[kalai]

I personally see that as Zack's unsubtle hint that this movie is about birth and fathers (Jor el/Johnathan) as opposed to BvS being about death and mothers(MarthaK/MarthaW). Plus in film Kryptonian society was all about eugenics and artificial population so it wouldn't be surprising for them to either mock or revere what they saw as obsolete 'imperatives'. The 'Martha' moment is baseline human reaction, you either get it or choose not to.

I don't think the "Martha" thing is really that deep, people get what Snyder is trying to say.
It's just a really stupid thing for Superman to shout "Save Martha" during a fight.
And Batman's reaction of "Why did you say that NAME!" is even more hilarious.

[kalai]

Therein lies the impact of Snyder, hell no one even talks about Infinity war let alone Thor.Marvel don't make movies with the gravitas that Zack made MoS or BvS with; he brought Superman ,Batman and WW(writing credits on WW) into the conversation.It's been that way since 2013 and my hunch is he has primed all audience to take these larger than life heroes seriously.I don't know how people will take to a post Cavill/Snyder superman ,but my guess is if they go for cheese or reductive characterisation, it won't go well with those who have seen Snyder's universe.

Pretty sure Thanos is still being memeed on reddit quite often, maybe Snyder fans are this delusional.

[Rev9]

I don't think the "Martha" thing is really that deep, people get what Snyder is trying to say.
It's just a really stupid thing for Superman to shout "Save Martha" during a fight.
And Batman's reaction of "Why did you say that NAME!" is even more hilarious.

Superman figured out Bruce was Batman, he said when he came towards him in the rain 'Bruce, I was wrong, you have to listen to me Lex wants us to..' and then got hit with the sonic booby trap.So his saying Save Martha, could have been both a ploy to snap Batman out of his rage, because he found out their mothers shared the name ,or it could have been a direct attempt to prove to Bruce that Kal had a human foster mum, precisely because Bruce had been taunting him that Kal's Kryptonian parents sent him to earth for a reason and that those aliens had nothing in common with Batman's human parents or humanity in general or even perhaps Batman figured Kal had human foster parents but was taunting him that Kal's human parents put faith in an alien who was too dangerous or alien to trust- who Bruce couldn't even call a man-so either way that name by Kal was purposeful to prove either he knew they had something in common (their mothers' names) or that he indeed loved his foster human mum contrary to what Bruce was presuming

[kalai]

Superman figured out Bruce was Batman, he said when he came towards him in the rain 'Bruce, I was wrong, you have to listen to me Lex wants us to..' and then got hit with the sonic booby trap.So his saying Save Martha, could have been both a ploy to snap Batman out of his rage, because he found out their mothers shared the name ,or it could have been a direct attempt to prove to Bruce that Kal had a human foster mum, precisely because Bruce had been taunting him that Kal's Kryptonian parents sent him to earth for a reason and that he had nothing in common with Batman's human parents or humanity in general or even perhaps Batman figured Kal had human foster parents but was taunting him that Kal's human parents put faith in an alien who was too dangerous or alien to trust- who Bruce couldn't even call a man-so either way that name by Kal was purposeful to prove either he knew they had something in common (their mothers' names) or that he indeed loved his foster human mum contrary to what Bruce was presuming

Like I said, people get the point.
Still doesn't make it clever writing, just Snyder and Terrio being presumptuous.

[Rev9]

Like I said, people get the point.
Still doesn't make it clever writing, just Snyder and Terrio being presumptuous.

How can it be presumptuous yet it can be inferred from direct words in the film? Those words were intentionally put in the script to allow for this very interpretation.

[kalai]

How can it be presumptuous yet it can be inferred from direct words in the film? Those words were intentionally put in the script to allow for this very interpretation.

Oh, should I use the word arrogant instead?
I'm pretty sure they thought it was a really smart twist, but it really wasn't.

[Rev9]

Oh, should I use the word arrogant instead?
I'm pretty sure they thought it was a really smart twist, but it really wasn't.

You're letting them 'kill' Martha triggered Batman's PTSD and brought up the trauma more vividly and then hearing 'save' Martha completely bewildered him, he was jarred.It was completely understandable, but anyway some people see the reaction as plausible if the mention of a name that is the lynchpin of a haunting tragedy brings such an emotional response ,others don't. For me that reaction was not out of the ordinary.

Plus in that moment there was reversed symmetry to Batman's experience his father stood to protect him from a goon and killer even in the face of death, while Superman in the face of certain death ,resigned to plead to save his mother's life.So Bruce got to experience his own fear and weakness all those years ago by switching places with not only Clark but even Joe Chill and Clark was not only in Bruce's exact predicament as extremely vulnerable( when he was a child) but was being as noble as Thomas Wayne in that moment

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I watched the Superman Lives documentary last night. I was going in expecting to see a bizarre mess that I would just laugh at, but seeing the concept art, hearing Burton's take, and even warming up to Cage in the suit a bit, I think it could have been something special. In a way I think it was the missing link between the Donner/Reeve take and what Snyder gave us years later. Man of Steel would have probably been made differently since the character's on-screen history would have been altered. But with a bolder precedent, the audience would have been more prepared to accept it. Instead it was a stark departure.

Agreed. As much as I adore the Donner films, audiences need to see more bold new versions of Superman than that. Cage & Burton would have no doubt delivered that

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Guys, the purpose of this thread is not to relitigate the choices of BvS or MoS. There's other places for you to fruitlessly try to convince the other that something that either did or didn't work for you was good or bad.

[Menacer]

You're letting them 'kill' Martha triggered Batman's PTSD and brought up the trauma more vividly and then hearing 'save' Martha completely bewildered him, he was jarred.It was completely understandable, but anyway some people see the reaction as plausible if the mention of a name that is the lynchpin of a haunting tragedy brings such an emotional response ,others don't. For me that reaction was not out of the ordinary.

Plus in that moment there was reversed symmetry to Batman's experience his father stood to protect him from a goon and killer even in the face of death, while Superman in the face of certain death ,resigned to plead to save his mother's life.So Bruce got to experience his own fear and weakness all those years ago by switching places with not only Clark but even Joe Chill and Clark was not only in Bruce's exact predicament as extremely vulnerable( when he was a child) but was being as noble as Thomas Wayne in that moment

Yup. Strange more don't have this emotional response.

Ive teared up every time to the Martha scene

Granted my mom died young from cancer. So I have an emotional connection to a young child losing their mother.

[Jewel Runner]

Therein lies the impact of Snyder, hell no one even talks about Infinity war let alone Thor.Marvel don't make movies with the gravitas that Zack made MoS or BvS with; he brought Superman ,Batman and WW(writing credits on WW) into the conversation.It's been that way since 2013 and my hunch is he has primed all audience to take these larger than life heroes seriously.I don't know how people will take to a post Cavill/Snyder superman ,but my guess is if they go for cheese or reductive characterisation, it won't go well with those who have seen Snyder's universe.

If there's one reason I don't like the Snyder fandom it's this stuff right here this whataboutism BS they always spout.
Frankly when the discussion about Snyder persists primarily because both he wouldn't shut up on social media about his alleged 5 movie plan and his fans doing the same "the movies are actually good you just don't get it" crap they've been doing since day one it's not something to be proud of because everyone else is ready to move on and forget the movies even happened.

[HsssH]

Its not like anyone is forcing you to come to this thread and complain about Snyder's fans.

[Jewel Runner]

And that's another thing Snyder fans do to deflect criticism.
That if you have any criticisms or grievances with Synder you basically you shouldn't be allowed to express them