Superman & Lois S1: Spoilers, Discussion, & Speculation

[manofsteel1979]

I'm in the camp that doesn't mind it if Jon evergets powers. However, they definitely do need to figure out his deal going forward. He's a likable character and the actor does a good job, but they need to figure out where he fits in beyond just Jordan's foil/cheerleader. At this point he's just occupying space and largely that's it. I'll give the writers a mulligan seeing as this is the first season and everything else is pretty close to pitch perfect. Next season they need to address this.

[JAK]

They had a whole season, lots of crisis, never once did they give Jon superpowers.
You would think that if they were going to show up it would be when held aloft with
an evil being controlling his brother with his hands choking him.

I suppose it is possible for that to just appear later. But it is hard to think they
are going down that path. I think they like that the jock doesn't have superpowers,
it is the social anxiety brother instead.

Sure, that's what they're doing now - but I'd change "a whole season" to "just one seaon" - many tv shows have had certain concepts be a slow burn. Maybe the Eradicator comes back, takes Jon this time, and after he kicks the other consciousness out, the powers don't go away. Or, it could be that his DNA makeup is different enough that his powers need a different catalyst. It's a comic book tv show, so it's not like their options on giving him powers are limited.

It could even be a response to all the asking; first rule of showbusiness is "always leave them wanting more." So if everyone is asking, that's exactly what you play coy about. They said they were exploring a direction, but they didn't say never. That's old-school tv promo.

I'm in the camp that doesn't mind it if Jon evergets powers. However, they definitely do need to figure out his deal going forward. He's a likable character and the actor does a good job, but they need to figure out where he fits in beyond just Jordan's foil/cheerleader. At this point he's just occupying space and largely that's it. I'll give the writers a mulligan seeing as this is the first season and everything else is pretty close to pitch perfect. Next season they need to address this.

This is my feeling, too. My own feelings aside, I don't see him not getting powers at some point.

[Superlad93]

I kinda meant that as one example that we know of - we also know about the writers' room shake-ups, but that means there likely were others. And I only brought it up to say that just about all first seasons are rocky on some level, and this one had at least a few things that became public enough to where we knew them... which usually means there's a lot more that we don't. There are a few things they'll have to be careful of for it to not become an issue.

I'm totally sympathetic towards that. I suppose my issue mainly boils down to the fact that THIS is a pretty big thing to drop the ball on, so it's glaring. Elsass' name is third in the credits yet his character has the least impact and story of all the main characters and even Lana's family. Once again, this isn't an issue if it's just one one son of Superman. The show tightens up considerably and doesn't miss a beat. For me, this is more than a rocky first season, but rather is a fundamental flaw of the show that's genuinely concerning.

You make some good points - have you tried posting all this to the CWSuperman twitter page, etc? Having gone to conventions for TV shows, I can tell you they listen a lot more than movie people do. I would've loved to've had that kind of possibility when I was grinding my axe with the DCEU.

I didn't know that. That said, I'm really not the type to pester creators. I know everyone works hard on these things, and there have to be factors that I'm not aware that are in play and make my armchair quarterbacking look dumb. If I can find a way to word it that's not belittling of the work these people have done then I'll do it. But right now that's really hard because it's such an absurd flaw that I can't see calling it anything other than underserving the character and actor, and a prime example of poor, poor planning.

[Superlad93]

I hear what some people are saying about leaving him without powers, but this is genuinely not the character or circumstance to do it with. Once again, you'd be fighting the power of a quick Google search. Once a perspective fan of Jon in the show looks him up and sees that the comic version of him has powers they're going to either a) wonder why this version doesn't or b) now expect him to get them, as they wait to tell their friends "told ya so" the same way everyone that Googled Thanos got to do.

You can't have it both ways. You can't say "this is its own thing" but you're actively relying on at least some of the people to either already know or have done a search on comic Jon before watching the show so you can subvert it and go "ha! He's not the one with powers! Aren't we clever?" You're not because now I'm wondering why he doesn't or when he will. You should've switched the got damn names or made one of them adopted. It would be like Alex from Supergirl being Supergirl rather than Kara. Who is that for??

It seems like the writers want him be the tech/weapons guy.

But Natasha? She's very clearly the tech/weapons "guy". And she's far better suited to it in terms of both the narrative and the comics. She's a proven genius who helped John Henry build his suit, and she grew up in a world where she had learn to defend herself. Plus in the comics she's Steel.

What good would Jon being less adapt or less narratively right for the "tech/weapons guy" role do for his character while Nat is around? Just make him feel like shit again like with football and Jordan? What's the actual point here for him?

Yeah, I don't see any way that Jon's not getting powers. I get what they're going for with the "he's like Lois" stuff, and I can see them wanting to drag that out a bit before shifting... but there's no way he's not getting powers. And when he does, I think it'll be a "big deal" moment. Especially with everyone asking, that's too "low-hanging fruit" of a plot point for them not to do.

I hope that's the case. I remember even PKJ having some choice words for how absurd Clark's treatment of Jon was, and how he felt all but assured that Jon would get powers too. Obviously he's not "in on" anything, but he's a writer, so it's at least noteworthy to me that he thinks it's a no brainer too.

The issue writers have found themselves in is that if Jon gets powers to at best it's redundant, and at worst it totally reverses the dynamic back to where they started where Jordan felt less than and Jon was exceptional because chances seem quite good that Jon wouldn't just be physically good with his powers given his 14 years of physical activity at a naturally high level, but he also wouldn't be such a selfish little baby about his powers since time and time again he's shown to be so selfless and about doing the right thing.

The only thing I could think of would be to make his powers even more unstable and dangerous than Jordan's. As in to the point where you're hard pressed to see them as powers and more of a legit affliction. Like, Jordan's powers are "unstable", but not really, right? They're unstable for a day or so and then he gets a hang of them. And his physical powers are at such a low level that he'd have to actually try a bit to really hurt or kill someone.

But if you make it so Jon's powers turn on and off at random (like he's not physical strong or durable all the time like Jordan is), do things like give him seizures like Tag, and make football impossible for him? Then the new dynamic between the boys stays there. Plus maybe Jordan's bum ass can finally start helping Jon out, and maybe Clark might actually go "oh snap, Lois, when did we get another kid!?" Jon would finally be able to really relate to Jordan's mental issues in a sense because this would mirror the uncontrollable outburst. Maybe Sam and John Henry create some sort of drug that helps regulate him, but he's gotta take it regularly. In a sense Jordan would be physically gifted one that would comfort and walk Jon through the bad times like Jon did for him.

You could even roll the Natasha plot in pretty nicely. In the episode Jon and Lois learned about Natasha and the other Earth, Jon seemed to long for a bond with her saying "I really wish I could've met you, sis". You take that and you have Nat start out just as hateful of Clark as John Henry was, but you now add in that she resents the boys for taking her mom. Then she sees how dangerous Jon's condition is, and relates that back to an evil Superman. Add on the fact that Jon was forming a bond with her dad, and she'd be at odd with him in a dramatic way that is driven by his actions and character.

Plus, because of his powers being basically unusable...*sigh* you can still have him shoot your stupid guns when he's in danger or he wants to help. And you only have lucky flashes of him using his unstable powers to help so that Jordan's status as the kid with powers is left mostly intact. I think this would fit with the themes and ideas of the show.

[Digifiend]

Natasha? Nobody called that. For some reason, the show changed John Henry's niece Natasha into his daughter NATALIE. She may also be a composite character, and could end up being Bumblebee (in the comics, Natasha is also Steel, and they might think two Steels in the same show is confusing - the same logic would explain the recast Kate not sticking around in Batwoman).

[Superlad93]

I've heard it said to me elsewhere that so much of this is new to Jordan that he comes off like an asshole sometimes and that's part of his arc. I genuinely don't believe that.

I don't think the show is written for him to be a little asshole anymore than it's written for Clark to be a jerk of a father to his other son. I think it's just the unfortunate side effect of the show not being written for two sons of Superman.

Remember that scene at the party where Sarah is worried about Jon feeling alone, and Jordan basically goes "good, it's about time. He'll probably be alright"? Or how about how Jordan doesn't seem to give even the nearest thing to a f%&k about how him being on the team is clearly hurting Jon? He comes off so damn self centered and totally dismissive of his brother's issues even though said brother has done nothing but encourage him, stick up for him, and sacrifice for him, and treat him like a person when everyone else treated him like glass.

If you take the second brother away? Then all of a sudden Jordan isn't such a little dick, is he? He has understandable anger towards his dad for not being there and keeping things from him, but they work it out on screen and find common ground. He tries to be a little petty and get back at Sarah's bf for beating him up, but they work it out on screen and he admits his mistakes. And that party scene? It's literally just him talking to Sarah about how he's feeling better being in this new environment, and not taking a moment to not give a f%&k about Jon.

Similar is true for Clark, and this is why I'm not just stuck on this Jon thing as a fan of his. This is a legit structural weakness of the show that is doing actual harm to the characterizations of the central characters.

Jon in this show is like how they'd splice new American footage in with the original Japanese footage to make Power Rangers, and there would be a clear disconnect in context and tone. But at least that was planned enough that it doesn't do harm to the characterizations.

[Vordan]

Natasha? Nobody called that. For some reason, the show changed John Henry's niece Natasha into his daughter NATALIE. She may also be a composite character, and could end up being Bumblebee (in the comics, Natasha is also Steel, and they might think two Steels in the same show is confusing - the same logic would explain the recast Kate not sticking around in Batwoman).

Nat becoming Steel would be similar to one or both of the boys taking over for Clark: the originals will retire and their legacies will take over for them. There won’t be two Steels operating concurrently I wager.

[Frontier]

I do feel like it would've been more reasonable to just split the Kryptonian powerset between the two boys rather than one has powers and the other doesn't. Like, biologically how would that even work?

Nat becoming Steel would be similar to one or both of the boys taking over for Clark: the originals will retire and their legacies will take over for them. There won’t be two Steels operating concurrently I wager.

Somehow I don't expect this show is going to go hard in a legacy direction beyond having the kids as sidekicks in the vein of their parents.

Although maybe once Jordan starts to really get control of his powers Clark might think about whether he can succeed him...but going off season 1 the idea of Jordan fighting crime or becoming a full-fledged hero never seemed to come up more than just him learning to control his powers.

[The Frog Bros]

I hear what some people are saying about leaving him without powers, but this is genuinely not the character or circumstance to do it with. Once again, you'd be fighting the power of a quick Google search. Once a perspective fan of Jon in the show looks him up and sees that the comic version of him has powers they're going to either a) wonder why this version doesn't or b) now expect him to get them, as they wait to tell their friends "told ya so" the same way everyone that Googled Thanos got to do.

You can't have it both ways. You can't say "this is its own thing" but you're actively relying on at least some of the people to either already know or have done a search on comic Jon before watching the show so you can subvert it and go "ha! He's not the one with powers! Aren't we clever?" You're not because now I'm wondering why he doesn't or when he will. You should've switched the got damn names or made one of them adopted. It would be like Alex from Supergirl being Supergirl rather than Kara. Who is that for??



But Natasha? She's very clearly the tech/weapons "guy". And she's far better suited to it in terms of both the narrative and the comics. She's a proven genius who helped John Henry build his suit, and she grew up in a world where she had learn to defend herself. Plus in the comics she's Steel.

What good would Jon being less adapt or less narratively right for the "tech/weapons guy" role do for his character while Nat is around? Just make him feel like shit again like with football and Jordan? What's the actual point here for him?



I hope that's the case. I remember even PKJ having some choice words for how absurd Clark's treatment of Jon was, and how he felt all but assured that Jon would get powers too. Obviously he's not "in on" anything, but he's a writer, so it's at least noteworthy to me that he thinks it's a no brainer too.

The issue writers have found themselves in is that if Jon gets powers to at best it's redundant, and at worst it totally reverses the dynamic back to where they started where Jordan felt less than and Jon was exceptional because chances seem quite good that Jon wouldn't just be physically good with his powers given his 14 years of physical activity at a naturally high level, but he also wouldn't be such a selfish little baby about his powers since time and time again he's shown to be so selfless and about doing the right thing.

The only thing I could think of would be to make his powers even more unstable and dangerous than Jordan's. As in to the point where you're hard pressed to see them as powers and more of a legit affliction. Like, Jordan's powers are "unstable", but not really, right? They're unstable for a day or so and then he gets a hang of them. And his physical powers are at such a low level that he'd have to actually try a bit to really hurt or kill someone.

But if you make it so Jon's powers turn on and off at random (like he's not physical strong or durable all the time like Jordan is), do things like give him seizures like Tag, and make football impossible for him? Then the new dynamic between the boys stays there. Plus maybe Jordan's bum ass can finally start helping Jon out, and maybe Clark might actually go "oh snap, Lois, when did we get another kid!?" Jon would finally be able to really relate to Jordan's mental issues in a sense because this would mirror the uncontrollable outburst. Maybe Sam and John Henry create some sort of drug that helps regulate him, but he's gotta take it regularly. In a sense Jordan would be physically gifted one that would comfort and walk Jon through the bad times like Jon did for him.

You could even roll the Natasha plot in pretty nicely. In the episode Jon and Lois learned about Natasha and the other Earth, Jon seemed to long for a bond with her saying "I really wish I could've met you, sis". You take that and you have Nat start out just as hateful of Clark as John Henry was, but you now add in that she resents the boys for taking her mom. Then she sees how dangerous Jon's condition is, and relates that back to an evil Superman. Add on the fact that Jon was forming a bond with her dad, and she'd be at odd with him in a dramatic way that is driven by his actions and character.

Plus, because of his powers being basically unusable...*sigh* you can still have him shoot your stupid guns when he's in danger or he wants to help. And you only have lucky flashes of him using his unstable powers to help so that Jordan's status as the kid with powers is left mostly intact. I think this would fit with the themes and ideas of the show.

You talkin’ regulate his powers so he can maintain control yet still have them, or go full McAvoy/Xavier from Days of Future Past and have him take a drug that totally saps him of ALL his powers? Frankly, either would add a more interesting story to his character than as he currently stands. They def need to do SOMETHING with him. I’m sure they’ll be exploring his new love interest next season, however interesting that will be…

[Frontier]

You talkin’ regulate his powers so he can maintain control yet still have them, or go full McAvoy/Xavier from Days of Future Past and have him take a drug that totally saps him of ALL his powers? Frankly, either would add a more interesting story to his character than as he currently stands. They def need to do SOMETHING with him. I’m sure they’ll be exploring his new love interest next season, however interesting that will be…

That and whatever is going on with her dad.

[Superlad93]

You talkin’ regulate his powers so he can maintain control yet still have them, or go full McAvoy/Xavier from Days of Future Past and have him take a drug that totally saps him of ALL his powers? Frankly, either would add a more interesting story to his character than as he currently stands. They def need to do SOMETHING with him. I’m sure they’ll be exploring his new love interest next season, however interesting that will be…

I'm talking a parallel to Jordan needing medication for his mental disorder, so I wouldn't suggest that he be able to access his powers comfortably and on command while on it. Basically the idea would be that without the medication they could flare up at any moment, but with it it's less likely, though still possible so things like football aren't allowed the same way Jordan is allowed.

And I'm sorry, but if the most interesting thing they can think to do with him is to explore a love interest (who herself seems to have a more interesting story being hinted at) then I'm washing my hands of this poorly thought out show in favor of more Disney+.

That and whatever is going on with her dad.

Lol this is literally my point. HER story is quite interesting, potentially. And I guess Jon is the transport system to get her into the story, huh? Hilarious.

[RobinGA]

I don't think with the off-season we will solve the Jon and Jordan question.

It was a whole season, or whatever term you want to use for season 1, where
we had the will they or won't they with Jon. I learn more with the they won't.
But I keep an open mind, it isn't incredible to me that they introduce a super-powered
Jon. Then it becomes about the two brothers learning about their new powers.

I've had it though with the resurrected Kryptonians. First, we had that with Man of Steel
now it was on Superman and Lois. I will admit that the show surprised me by
not having a "kneel before Zod" moment. But they did this for a good year, try and do
something else in season 2. Smaller stories where they work on character development
would be nice.

I liked how they used Lana in the show. It was nice to see the Lois-Lana dynamic
in the show. It built slowly, but the two women had a nice rapport. I'm not
quite sure what Lana is going to do now that Edge has been defeated. How exactly
the town recovers would be an interesting story, but I imagine it will be poof
magically restored by the time it starts up again.

[Vordan]

I do feel like it would've been more reasonable to just split the Kryptonian powerset between the two boys rather than one has powers and the other doesn't. Like, biologically how would that even work?

Somehow I don't expect this show is going to go hard in a legacy direction beyond having the kids as sidekicks in the vein of their parents.

Although maybe once Jordan starts to really get control of his powers Clark might think about whether he can succeed him...but going off season 1 the idea of Jordan fighting crime or becoming a full-fledged hero never seemed to come up more than just him learning to control his powers.

The kids taking over for their parents would be “final season” type of storytelling. Otherwise yes I expect them to continue playing support.

[rpmaluki]

I don't think with the off-season we will solve the Jon and Jordan question.

It was a whole season, or whatever term you want to use for season 1, where
we had the will they or won't they with Jon. I learn more with the they won't.
But I keep an open mind, it isn't incredible to me that they introduce a super-powered
Jon. Then it becomes about the two brothers learning about their new powers.

I've had it though with the resurrected Kryptonians. First, we had that with Man of Steel
now it was on Superman and Lois. I will admit that the show surprised me by
not having a "kneel before Zod" moment. But they did this for a good year, try and do
something else in season 2. Smaller stories where they work on character development
would be nice.

I liked how they used Lana in the show. It was nice to see the Lois-Lana dynamic
in the show. It built slowly, but the two women had a nice rapport. I'm not
quite sure what Lana is going to do now that Edge has been defeated. How exactly
the town recovers would be an interesting story, but I imagine it will be poof
magically restored by the time it starts up again.

According to Helbing, these type of Kryptonian stories are well and done, at least for S2. He also mentioned having smaller Killgrave type of villains from the comics but mainly sticking with a villain for Clark/Superman and a villain for Lois per season.

The kids taking over for their parents would be “final season” type of storytelling. Otherwise yes I expect them to continue playing support.

I'm not in a rush for the kids to suit up so this suits me fine.

[Frontier]

I'm talking a parallel to Jordan needing medication for his mental disorder, so I wouldn't suggest that he be able to access his powers comfortably and on command while on it. Basically the idea would be that without the medication they could flare up at any moment, but with it it's less likely, though still possible so things like football aren't allowed the same way Jordan is allowed.

And I'm sorry, but if the most interesting thing they can think to do with him is to explore a love interest (who herself seems to have a more interesting story being hinted at) then I'm washing my hands of this poorly thought out show in favor of more Disney+.

Lol this is literally my point. HER story is quite interesting, potentially. And I guess Jon is the transport system to get her into the story, huh? Hilarious.

I mean, at the moment, she's a Jon supporting character so Jon getting to know her and her backstory seems like a valid sub-plot from him unless it gets, like, hijacked by a crossover with The Flash.

I don't think the show not utilizing Jon as well as they could makes it a poorly-thought out show when it's just one aspect of the series and they still managed to make Jon very likeable and endearing to the audience. I'm not disagreeing with some of the criticism, although I guess for me it's not a dealbreaker.

According to Helbing, these type of Kryptonian stories are well and done, at least for S2. He also mentioned having smaller Killgrave type of villains from the comics but mainly sticking with a villain for Clark/Superman and a villain for Lois per season.

The two having their own villains kind of coalesced into one villain here, so I'm curious to see how they'll handle it next season.