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  1. #136
    DC/Collected Editions Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    Well, in all fairness, it wasn't just her age that was involved.
    They also had to deal with almost fifteen years of stories that had the Black Canary on Earth-One being a former JSA member originally from Earth-Two with all her memories / references.
    Right, which is why they should have figured out a plausible reason why Dinah looked like she was still in her twenties (like Ollie was in actuality), while still having all of those experiences. I'm not saying it would have been a pice of cake to do, but I think it could have been done without making the crapola they did in reality.
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  2. #137
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    Instead of viewing the Linearverse as some big continuity initiative, try viewing it as Dan Jurgens' toybox where everything kind of happened somehow.

    I favor each creator who's proven themselves getting a universe to tinker in.

    This happens to be Jurgens' and I'm here for seeing how he'd make it work.

  3. #138
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    Ollie often comes across as being one of the older heroes among the Justice League--after all he had been around since the early 1940s. And Dinah Drake Lance was one of the youngest of the Justice Society (joining in the late 1940s). So in 1969, I'm willing to believe they were the same age. Makes more sense than the stupid daughter retcon.

    It comes off creepy in JLA:YEAR ONE (1998) when Oliver has to be a lot older than the daughter Dinah--given the continuity at the time which required Ollie to have been around a long time for it all to make sense.

  4. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    B
    I like continuity because it can create a lot of interesting stories and it's nice to see how everything connects. It can be a rewarding experience. But I don't think the publisher believed in that kind of continuity after Crisis. If they could get a hot writer to do a new series, they were willing to throw out continuity at the drop of a hat, so it wouldn't be too much hard work for the new writer--no need to do research. That's what made the comics a mess--because they insisted that there was just one universe and everything connected, yet they constantly had bits of continuity overhauled. And they kept having to patch it all up and make some excuse for why it was all wrong.
    Continuity and shared universes only works if the writers/editors engaged in creating content are acting in good faith. It doesn't work if you have someone like Bendis claiming that he's being held back by the prior work of inferior writers and doesn't care about how a character was used by his supposedly inferior predecessors. Or like Slott/the Fantastic Four editors who deliberately changed a character because they didn't want to share the character with the X-book. Or Joe Q uniterally breaking the marriage because of his personal issues or Dan Didio going above the writers/editors and sabotaging the Flash book because he hates Wally. Or in the case of DC editorial where they pay lip service to continuity, but no one is on the same page and nobody is communicating about what they are doing due to inter-office politics. Ultimately the egos and pettiness of comic book creators undermines the idea of continuity.
    Last edited by Bruce Wayne; 02-24-2021 at 01:29 PM.

  5. #140
    duke's casettetape lemonpeace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Wayne View Post
    Continuity and shared universes only works if the writers/editors engaged in creating content are acting in good faith. It doesn't work if you have someone like Bendis claiming that he's being held back by the prior work of inferior writers and doesn't care about how a character was used by his supposedly inferior predecessors. Or like Slott/the Fantastic Four editors who deliberately changed a character because they didn't want to share the character with the X-book. Or Joe Q breaking the marriage because of his personal issues or Dan Didio sabotaging the Flash book because he hates Wally. Or in the case of DC editorial where they pay lip service to continuity, but no one is on the same page and nobody is communicating about what they are doing due to inter-office politics. Ultimately the egos and pettiness of comic book creators undermines the idea of continuity.


    especially that last bar
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  6. #141
    DC/Collected Editions Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    Ollie often comes across as being one of the older heroes among the Justice League--after all he had been around since the early 1940s. And Dinah Drake Lance was one of the youngest of the Justice Society (joining in the late 1940s). So in 1969, I'm willing to believe they were the same age. Makes more sense than the stupid daughter retcon.
    The problem is he was still only around 28-29 pre-COIE like most of the other superheroes in the JLA (as confirmed by the Answer Man!)
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  7. #142
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    Ollie often comes across as being one of the older heroes among the Justice League--after all he had been around since the early 1940s. And Dinah Drake Lance was one of the youngest of the Justice Society (joining in the late 1940s). So in 1969, I'm willing to believe they were the same age. Makes more sense than the stupid daughter retcon.

    It comes off creepy in JLA:YEAR ONE (1998) when Oliver has to be a lot older than the daughter Dinah--given the continuity at the time which required Ollie to have been around a long time for it all to make sense.
    I feel like in 1969, Ollie was early to mid 30s and Dinah as late 30s. Hardly a May-December romance. And much preferable to the later version, where he's so much older. Especially if he ever had a celebrity crush on her mom. Oh, and I much preferred how the romance developed originally to the later versions where Ollie comes off quite oily. Of course, I've never perceived 1970s Bruce Wayne as 29, no matter how much they want to push it. I don't think of the Silver Age and Golden Age WW/Batman/Superman as different characters* (as they were retconned to be), so for me the bronze age Bruce is the golden age Bruce, and so he's early 30s, too.

    I've never quite been sure in the actual golden age (not Earth Two, later established stuff) if Ollie was an archaeologist or just had a collection of artifacts. Haven't read anywhere near all the old stories, and never saw him working. If he was an archaeologist when he met Roy, then than that version would have been older than early 30s, but he had a bit more retconning in some ways (as did Aquaman) even before the big rework by O'Neil in 69/70, so it's more wobbly to me.


    * This also results in me thinking of the Earth Two Batman/Superman/WW as different characters than the golden age ones.


    The problem is he was still only around 28-29 pre-COIE like most of the other superheroes in the JLA (as confirmed by the Answer Man!)
    And I don't see a problem with with a 29 year old dating a 39 year old. It's throwing the JSA/BC back to the 1940s (where she wasn't when Dinah was brought across to Earth One) that's the issue. Or, I guess removing them from there (and moving Dinah in the period they were removed) could be considered the ultimate problem. But I'd argue it's the 1940s-tying. No one except Jay looked older in those JLA comics in the 1960s and early 1970s. Them being 10 years older than the main-earth heroes and timesliding along with them was what was being done then, or so it seemed to me. Obviously that changed later when Huntress was introduced (and both she and Power Girl being young adults at the same time bugged me so much).
    Last edited by Tzigone; 02-24-2021 at 01:31 PM.

  8. #143
    DC/Collected Editions Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    And I don't see a problem with with a 29 year old dating a 39 year old. It's throwing the JSA/BC back to the 1940s (where she wasn't when Dinah was brought across to Earth One) that's the issue. Or, I guess removing them from there (and moving Dinah in the period they were removed) could be considered the ultimate problem.
    It's really a question as to how old the JSA members were. They were in their late forties/early fifties by the mid-'70s, FWIW. Dinah could have been younger than that, but still somewhere in her forties. Which is fine, BTW, because I recall thinking Angie Dickinson was hot stuff when I was a young teen over 40 years ago.
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  9. #144
    Astonishing Member kingaliencracker's Avatar
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    The problem with a shared universe concept and continuity in comic books is that it substantially limits the creative freedom of the writer and/or artist. Some of the greatest DC stories of all time weren't part of the main continuity at all. So for DC to continually tie itself to continuity and a shared universe is extremely limiting. This is also why Batman has become so insufferable for me. As much as I love(d?) the character, to make him relevant to all the other characters in the DCU they constantly have him outwitting and defeating characters he has no real business dealing with. For me, Batman needs to be in Gotham fighting his villains - not leading the JL and dealing with universal crisis.

  10. #145
    Relaunched, not rebooted! SJNeal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Gerard View Post
    Instead of viewing the Linearverse as some big continuity initiative, try viewing it as Dan Jurgens' toybox where everything kind of happened somehow.

    I favor each creator who's proven themselves getting a universe to tinker in.

    This happens to be Jurgens' and I'm here for seeing how he'd make it work.
    This is honestly the impression I got from reading the original posts.

    I didn't chime in earlier, because I didn't want to be misconstrued as creator bashing, but let's be honest. This revelation isn't coming from Williamson, Snyder, Tynion, or any of the architects; it's coming from a member of the old guard who hasn't truly steered the boat since... Zero Hour? I'm taking a "wait and see" attitude. All of this might amount to absolutely nothing in the near future. *shrug*
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  11. #146
    ...of the Black Priests Midnight_v's Avatar
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    The problem with a shared universe concept and continuity in comic books is that it substantially limits the creative freedom of the writer and/or artist.
    Its challenging for writers but its a feature not a bug.

    I'd been advocating for something like this for awhile but I thought it would be darker and have more attrition. WW is legit immortal, Batman went Lazurus pit, Lazurus pit, I clone myself, Superman ages slower the older he gets, the speed force users you can make exempt from age, atlanteans age slowly 100 year isn't much to them, and there's more than one GL...

    The thing for me was if you're going to do the linearverse is at somepoint I'd actually like storylines to matter and essentially an attrition rate for heroes. Dead. Retired. Turned Evil. If there's 5 generations of heroes it just strains credibility that they all ... just... won. Like how Tim Became the joker in Batman Beyond seems like the sort of thing that would be happening each generation.

    I like the idea of the linearverse but even if I had to give up a couple of my favorites I'd like it better from a narrative standpoint if they didn't truly make it a "Clutterverse"
    My priority is enjoying and supporting stories of timeless heroism and conflict.
    Everything else is irrelevant.

  12. #147
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    Every time DC engages in wacky continuity "fixing", I ask myself the same question: Who is this for? I don't think this is going to attract new readers, and it seems to leave existing readers even more confused.

    I'm not exactly sure on how to interpret the explanations on this concept or whether or not this impacts the "main" continuity, but I still feel my above point stands.

  13. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight_v View Post
    I like the idea of the linearverse but even if I had to give up a couple of my favorites I'd like it better from a narrative standpoint if they didn't truly make it a "Clutterverse"
    First: define "Clutterverse"?

    Next: Who's in? Who's out? (for example: where does the Crime Syndicate of America fit in?)

  14. #149
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by witchboy View Post
    This feels very much like Dido's vision is still driving the company. Possibly just on autopilot.
    Definitely. Either they genuinely like his ideas and his last slated direction, or they just don't care at all about the comics and are picking up where he left off by complete default. Either way nothing has appeared to change, indeed it only seems to be getting worse. Maybe pretty soon we end up in a situation where we'll be saying "Damn, at the very least we knew Didio cared and believed in his ideas even if a lot of them were bad".
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  15. #150
    Fantastic Member gambit2051's Avatar
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    So how does Time Travel in DC work now exactly...???? Not like it was "working" before, but still...
    If you are going to refute, you need to do your own research.

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