Iron Man vs Tien Shinhan

[big_adventure]

I'd put him around the Thing.

Sounds about right, when written without PIS or SMvFL. He can obviously amp that significantly.

[Surtur]

So The Thing is strong enough to make skyscrapers into weapons. So..we are saying end of Dragonball Tien has strength on that level? Tien and The Thing arm wrestle, the outcome is what?

[abmccray]

So The Thing is strong enough to make skyscrapers into weapons. So..we are saying end of Dragonball Tien has strength on that level? Tien and The Thing arm wrestle, the outcome is what?

Arm wrestling is irrelevant with ki focused punching. It's like saying "Thing vs. Karate Kid, who can lift more?" It becomes a non statement.

Also, since EOD chars are high-mid mach, they're at least punching hundreds of times before, say, a standard bullet timer can make a reaction. If, say, Goten has enough "striking" strength to throw things through mountains before powering up, how many punches in even under than range can Iron Man take in one spot before he can do something, is the question.

[lancerman]

Yeah exactly. Dragon Ball is probably one of the few fictions where the characters fighting speeds are way above travel speed. These guys can fight so fast, particularly end of Dragon Ball Tenshinhan, that the best trained martial artists in the world can't see them. In fact he's one of three that are capable of that at the end of the series (the other two being Goku and Piccolo).

And I have my doubts that Iron Man could completely no sell one full powered punch from Tenshinhan and not be even slightly moved or irritated. And at the speed he's going, hundreds of those are going to disorient him and hurt his chances of a counter. You really need characters with superspeed or a damage soak where they won't be even slightly effected after a blitz to take out the Dragonball characters.

[Primetime Harder]

You really need characters with superspeed or a damage soak where they won't be even slightly effected after a blitz to take out the Dragonball characters.

You've just given me an idea for a new (and hopefully more balanced) thread.

[big_adventure]

Yeah exactly. Dragon Ball is probably one of the few fictions where the characters fighting speeds are way above travel speed. These guys can fight so fast, particularly end of Dragon Ball Tenshinhan, that the best trained martial artists in the world can't see them. In fact he's one of three that are capable of that at the end of the series (the other two being Goku and Piccolo).

And I have my doubts that Iron Man could completely no sell one full powered punch from Tenshinhan and not be even slightly moved or irritated. And at the speed he's going, hundreds of those are going to disorient him and hurt his chances of a counter. You really need characters with superspeed or a damage soak where they won't be even slightly effected after a blitz to take out the Dragonball characters.

The problem with that speed point being that "the best trained (normal) martial artists in the world" aren't even (particluarly close) to CBPH. Bullet-timers would be easily fast enough to move so fast that those guys couldn't make out their moves. Except for one feat that I don't really find usable, given that it's a MASSIVE outlier from the rest of the series to that point (Tao's pillar-toss), and one feat that required massive concentration and a huge self-amp (Roshi and the moon), nothing shown before end-of-series DB is at that level. And Tien himself never doesn't anything close to either of those things. Yes, at the 23rd, he's faster and more skilled than Tao. But he never shows anything like, hell, class 50 hitting strength. And he never shows even high-end BT reactions, much less speedster levels.

Also, since EOD chars are high-mid mach, they're at least punching hundreds of times before, say, a standard bullet timer can make a reaction. If, say, Goten has enough "striking" strength to throw things through mountains before powering up, how many punches in even under than range can Iron Man take in one spot before he can do something, is the question.

The very first time we see Goten, he's capable of going SSJ and is, in his base, unpowered form, probably thousands of times stronger than Tien was at end of DB. He and Trunks, fighting on each other's shoulders, in base form (not an advantage, BTW), were roughly equal to freaking 18. We can assume, at worst, that she was only as strong as she was in the Android saga, so, you know, significantly stronger than final form Freeza, and capable of beating the crap out of that era's SSJ Vegeta (himself much stronger than Freeza). And when they went SSJ (50x amp, don't forget), she "cheated" to win, by Kienzen-ing and cutting their costume in half. She didn't hurt either of them.

Like when someone (was it you?) compared Tao to freaking Namek-saga Vegeta, this is not valid. Not even a little bit.

[The Drunkard Kid]

As I noted earlier, there was a feat that was very similar to Tao's (repeated) pillar toss(es), which failed to significantly injure the guy that Tao one shot with his tongue right before he did the pillar toss.

Even before Arale-chan headbutting General Blue to DB Egypt, characters well below her and Tao Pai Pai were doing things like instantly jumping miles into the sky, casually punting people out of sight/rising arcs out of a city (before they reverse their flights)/over mountains/etc... and Tao was a huge jump even in series.

Afterwards, the only kinda quantifiable strength feats I can think of in DB would be an unpowered-up Kid Goku who was weaker than End of DB Tenshinhan casually chucking a 20ish foot tall Piccolo Daimaou hard enough to topple a tower, and a Goku that was physically many times more powerful than End of DB Tenshinhan fairly easily flipping aa building sized Piccolo Jr.

As for Tenshinhan's strength feats, outside of power scaling and keeping pace with the likes of Yamcha/Roshi/Kid Goku/Saibaman #1, the only thing I can think of in the entire series was the way he casually caught and held an allegedly amped Tao Pai Pai's strike with one hand while the latter was trembling with effort trying to force the strike.

As for Goten/Trunks vs. #18, while she was caught off guard by their firepower (like everyone who deals with them, other than Goku), she wasn't even remotely serious for that fight. The kids went SSJ because they couldn't overwhelm her in their base forms, and she still dodged their blast and sliced apart their outfit to disqualify them. Several years later, Goku claimed that a pair of Frieza class threats would be a good match for Goten and Trunks.

That said, Goten would rule over Saiyajin Saga Earth as an invincible God of War, much less DB-era Earth.

[abmccray]

The problem with that speed point being that "the best trained (normal) martial artists in the world" aren't even (particluarly close) to CBPH. Bullet-timers would be easily fast enough to move so fast that those guys couldn't make out their moves. Except for one feat that I don't really find usable, given that it's a MASSIVE outlier from the rest of the series to that point (Tao's pillar-toss), and one feat that required massive concentration and a huge self-amp (Roshi and the moon), nothing shown before end-of-series DB is at that level. And Tien himself never doesn't anything close to either of those things. Yes, at the 23rd, he's faster and more skilled than Tao. But he never shows anything like, hell, class 50 hitting strength. And he never shows even high-end BT reactions, much less speedster levels.



The very first time we see Goten, he's capable of going SSJ and is, in his base, unpowered form, probably thousands of times stronger than Tien was at end of DB. He and Trunks, fighting on each other's shoulders, in base form (not an advantage, BTW), were roughly equal to freaking 18. We can assume, at worst, that she was only as strong as she was in the Android saga, so, you know, significantly stronger than final form Freeza, and capable of beating the crap out of that era's SSJ Vegeta (himself much stronger than Freeza). And when they went SSJ (50x amp, don't forget), she "cheated" to win, by Kienzen-ing and cutting their costume in half. She didn't hurt either of them.

Like when someone (was it you?) compared Tao to freaking Namek-saga Vegeta, this is not valid. Not even a little bit.

Yes, that was me, in direct response to someone saying that the pillar toss was the only time in the series in which someone did something like that, intending that it was a joke feat like Goku going to the moon. Context.

Goten was a bad example, yes; I was just trying to think of a visual to show the physical strength of low tier characters later on, who aren't even trying, to show why people that "try" earlier have such ridiculous feats.

[Hazard]

Tao's pillar toss and Arale's Egypt headbutt are completely valid and support each other.

Seriously, by the time you get to Gohan (beginning of Z Gohan at that) you have a guy who can break a Saiyan ship casually and that's way more impressive given their ability to take Nappa's country nuking attack.

[big_adventure]

As I noted earlier, there was a feat that was very similar to Tao's (repeated) pillar toss(es), which failed to significantly injure the guy that Tao one shot with his tongue right before he did the pillar toss.

Even before Arale-chan headbutting General Blue to DB Egypt, characters well below her and Tao Pai Pai were doing things like instantly jumping miles into the sky, casually punting people out of sight/rising arcs out of a city (before they reverse their flights)/over mountains/etc... and Tao was a huge jump even in series.

Afterwards, the only kinda quantifiable strength feats I can think of in DB would be an unpowered-up Kid Goku who was weaker than End of DB Tenshinhan casually chucking a 20ish foot tall Piccolo Daimaou hard enough to topple a tower, and a Goku that was physically many times more powerful than End of DB Tenshinhan fairly easily flipping aa building sized Piccolo Jr.

As for Tenshinhan's strength feats, outside of power scaling and keeping pace with the likes of Yamcha/Roshi/Kid Goku/Saibaman #1, the only thing I can think of in the entire series was the way he casually caught and held an allegedly amped Tao Pai Pai's strike with one hand while the latter was trembling with effort trying to force the strike.

As for Goten/Trunks vs. #18, while she was caught off guard by their firepower (like everyone who deals with them, other than Goku), she wasn't even remotely serious for that fight. The kids went SSJ because they couldn't overwhelm her in their base forms, and she still dodged their blast and sliced apart their outfit to disqualify them. Several years later, Goku claimed that a pair of Frieza class threats would be a good match for Goten and Trunks.

That said, Goten would rule over Saiyajin Saga Earth as an invincible God of War, much less DB-era Earth.

That's not really what I got. Despite their massive handicap in fighting on top of each other, and looking through eye-holes, she couldn't hit them. She tried, and failed utterly. Now, they couldn't do anything either, because they couldn't see, couldn't move correctly, etc.

When they went SSJ, she spotted it directly, commenting that she knows who they are, but they don't know that yet. They fire off an explicitly depowered blast that she barely dodges, swearing on the way, and comments that she needs to do something quickly because they are too strong. She says "I'm going to win", then she calls their names, distracting them (boys "she firured it out"), then fires the kienzen. This only works because they dodge each in different directions. That's a pretty big point - they were damn near as fast as she was before transforming, so they were clearly a least an order of magnitude faster after. If they could have better coordinated their actions, they could have taken her. As they are getting busted, in fact, one of them bitches at the other "why did you go that way?" It's pretty fair to say that either of them as SSJ would have destroyed her. Which, as stated, makes Kid Trunks stronger than Future Trunks.

And agreed, Trunks or Goten would be by far the strongest person on Saiyan Saga Earth, or on Namek as well for that matter.

[big_adventure]

Tao's pillar toss and Arale's Egypt headbutt are completely valid and support each other.

Seriously, by the time you get to Gohan (beginning of Z Gohan at that) you have a guy who can break a Saiyan ship casually and that's way more impressive given their ability to take Nappa's country nuking attack.

Except beginning of Z Gohan is, when not enraged, is significantly stronger than 23rd Budokai Tien. And when enraged, he's a crap-load higher than that - it was his rage thing that let him break Raditz's ship, and headbutt Nappa.

For some reference, remember, Goku, training freak, both grew up and got stronger, and yet still got utterly, totally outclassed by Raditz. 23rd Kid Goku was a pretty fair amount stronger than 23rd Tien.

And Nappa's two finger salute attack was city-nuking, not country-nuking, wasn't it? Plus, it's pretty clear that Nappa wouldn't want to destroy his own ship, so we can probably extrapolate that Nappa avoided his ship with the blast.

Also, It's MUCH easier to break out of a thick-walled sphere than it is to break into one. It's kind of the basic concept of the shape.

[Hazard]

Back then, Gohan's like three tiers above Tien when enraged.

Which is just fine, because the feat is much higher than Tao's.

This is Nappa's blast, which covers a gigantic area:
http://i.imgur.com/bk94Peb.png?1?1494


This is the area after:
http://i.imgur.com/FuLc9g5.png?1

By the way, these are the Saiyan's ships before:
http://i.imgur.com/ZOYSZsu.png?1

They were in a crater which is non-existent after the blast takes care of everything. Chance of them not being hit are impossible really.

This is the news reporter saying the whole thing was a gigantic earthquake and they are unable to contact any cities around the epicenter. In a world where cities are places in the middle of nowhere:
http://i.imgur.com/vxmsjMp.png?1

[big_adventure]

Back then, Gohan's like three tiers above Tien when enraged.

Which is just fine, because the feat is much higher than Tao's.

This is Nappa's blast, which covers a gigantic area:
http://i.imgur.com/bk94Peb.png?1?1494


This is the area after:
http://i.imgur.com/FuLc9g5.png?1

By the way, these are the Saiyan's ships before:
http://i.imgur.com/ZOYSZsu.png?1

They were in a crater which is non-existent after the blast takes care of everything. Chance of them not being hit are impossible really.

This is the news reporter saying the whole thing was a gigantic earthquake and they are unable to contact any cities around the epicenter. In a world where cities are places in the middle of nowhere:
http://i.imgur.com/vxmsjMp.png?1

No, at the beginning of Z, Gohan is probably 3 times Tien's level. By the time Nappa shows up, Gohan's been training with Piccolo, and, when calm, is damn near as strong as Raditz was (and Raditz is well past 3x Tien), and when enraged (Using Nappa Headbutt Fu), he's at least 10x 23rd Budokai Tien.

And as far as "manipulating his blast", well, we give DBZ a ton of credit for manipulating what gets pulped when the blast. You have personally argued on the side of "can execute extreme control on where power is applied" as a way to explain Goku & Co. hitting with planet-buster-plus forces, but not actually destroying the planet when doing so.

[Hazard]

Indeed, I have argued for guys in DBZ controlling the AOE of their blasts.

The ships is right in the epicenter of the blast so not really seeing any way for it not to be hit.

[abmccray]

I don't think we ever know Tien's power level when he's gathering energy to do an attack, actually. We just know that, idle, he's a notch about Krillen. That doesn't mean all that much because Gohan is like at, 2, idle.

We can assume that while doing the dodonpa, he gets towards, but not as high as the kamehameha, and the kikohou may actually be higher since it's life force based. But, again, it's all supposition.

We say "manipulate the blast" by the construction or aim of the blast itself. They don't do kamehamehas when aiming down at the planet because they're too dangerous (Gohan was even scared to toss one out parallel), for instance. They may create a concentrated attack to try to be more dangerous than their giant AOE stuff (see the keinzan/destructo disk, makankosappo, etc.). It's typically a big deal when they show off a new attack type for that reason. They do different actual constructed attacks depending on what they're trying to accomplish in particular. I don't see it as "they do an AOE, and make sure the AOE has a little bubble in the epicenter of it."