Spider-Man 60

[John Ossie]

It's great to flat out see it's going where a lot of us were hoping it's going, this was a really good issue taking into account the issues that have loomed over Spidey comics for the last 10 years and our pain is Peter's pain. I feel like we won't be getting any follow up on this for a while, disappointingly, though. Next is new costume, new job, big Kingpin battles.

Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if we were made to wait till issue 100 or something.

Haven't gotten my copy yet but the spoiler is cool. Would be more excited if I didn't know that we were taking a tangent from the subject likely for the next Kingpin arc. However, maybe we will have more side plots in that as well that progress the OMD angle as well.

I'd expect at least a little reference in the Kingpin arc.

[PeterParked]

Because you see it's only white teenagers who count as "teenagers". Diverse teenagers are diverse first and teenagers second.

You should really refrain from putting thoughts and words in other people mouth that they didn't say or think only because it's the only way you are able to find something to defend your position. What I said is, and it's basic logic and common sense, that being a teenager it's not MM core quality, because as everyone else will grow up and not be a teenager anymore, so it can't be his defining quality right? In fact, I think he is almost not a teeager anymore. Again, basic logic.

If as you say historical trends are down now, and in the past 10 years or so, you have OMD and so on, doesn't that mean in fact that the lack of change or ensuring the status-quo in fact doesn't work, doesn't produce appreciable observable results, and as such your entire argument is insupportable, illogical, and shoddy.

And you should probably also stop with this silly absolutes you constantly use that only highlight your immaturity. The historical trends I talk about encompass the whole market, and as any analyst worth its salt could tell you, they are the result of a market that until just a few years ago, ignored the change in demographic and only catered to a shrinking audience of 30-40yo white males, and, still today, confine their sale mostly to one channel predominantly catering to the same demographic. In fact, more diverse, contemporary comics intended for everyone and different age ranges, and sold in regular bookstores, or school fairs, are growing in sales and popularity from several years. Do I have to explain you that obviously one comic choices and results are irrelevant to a trend that encompass the whole market? If so, maybe this is not the kind of conversation your are read for.

The sales of Spider-Man and Marvel Comics were always at its highest when it embraced change and not when it stuck in a wheel.

You told me the same thing the last time I was so unlucky to have one of my post replied to you, I showed you linking to the sales of Amazing Spider Man from issue 1 to today available in Comichron that is not true at all, you can ignore it as much as you want but facts are facts. Sales historically are stable and variations are not tied to this supposed "changes" you talk about.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

What I said is, and it's basic logic and common sense,

No it isn't.

...that being a teenager it's not MM core quality,

For some people maybe. For some who think being white is the only way a teenager can be an universal figure, for them sure.

For most people, for his creator Brian Michael Bendis, Morales is the contemporary version of a teenage superhero, representing contemporary teenage life in a far more grounded way than the original Peter Parker ever did in the '60s.

... because as everyone else will grow up and not be a teenager anymore, so it can't be his defining quality right?

Okay, so you admit that Peter Parker isn't a teenage hero? That there's no such thing as a teenage superhero. A real bummer to Teen Titans and New Mutants fans, but okay I can live with that perspective at least.

The historical trends I talk about encompass the whole market,

In other words, vague claims not grounded on any common set of references.

...and as any analyst worth its salt could tell you, they are the result of a market that until just a few years ago, ignored the change in demographic and only catered to a shrinking audience of 30-40yo white males, and, still today, confine their sale mostly to one channel predominantly catering to the same demographic. In fact, more diverse, contemporary comics intended for everyone and different age ranges, and sold in regular bookstores, or school fairs, are growing in sales and popularity from several years.

None of this has anything at all to do with the debate at hand, which is about Spider-Man aging. Spider-Man deaging did not lead to any expansion of readership or any significant gains or moved the needle in any significant way in terms of broadening the readership (in truth it lost readership) and the comics market and Spider-Man readership still largely caters to what you describe.

In fact, OMD itself is a product of 50-60 year old white males exercising a zombie grudge on a fandom that had long moved on. After all, the Spider-Marriage was far more popular among the new younger readership (and still is) than among older fans.

Sales historically are stable and variations are not tied to this supposed "changes" you talk about.

It literally doesn't matter then what the content is then, right? If it doesn't matter or doesn't move the needle then removing the marriage didn't make any difference or serve any purpose. Thanks for the confirmation.

[Kingkalamari]

So ... Mephisto says he doesn't know who Kindred is. Do we believe it or is he lying? Both seem equally likely.

Mephisto is 100% lying. Not only is he smirking hearing Strange talk, but Harry was in hell and returned to life via OMD directly tied to Parker's deal as a secret demon. For sure by means of Mephisto himself, and yknow, being one of the 12 personifications of Satan in the 616 theres absolutely no reason to trust him by his words.

[NC_Yankee]

Mephisto is 100% lying. Not only is he smirking hearing Strange talk, but Harry was in hell and returned to life via OMD directly tied to Parker's deal as a secret demon. For sure by means of Mephisto himself, and yknow, being one of the 12 personifications of Satan in the 616 theres absolutely no reason to trust him by his words.

Mephisto lying and not living up to his terms of the bargain, might be one way to not only send OMD to history but allow Aunt May to live as well. The question is will Spencer take that way out or not?

[Malachi]

Entering into a conversation, or a confrontation as this one is, with the lord of lies without any sort of strategy for handling lies would be extremly foolish. Strange must expect that whatever answers he gets must be weighed against the possible motivation behind them. Probably the whole scene is just an gesture from Strange since he allready knows the answer or has guessed the shape of it.

While I enjoyed the Monologue it's hard for me to get excited since the whole aftermath is just a timebomb. MJ has allready cleared this with Peter and there is no possible fallout of misstrust? Seems doubtful as she stated Peter has enough crap to deal with. So this might go sideways in so many ways. Not to mention that Spencer will one day not write this comic. Will fans and people in Marvel have forgotten this or will it stay in comics history as some events seems to do. It's hard to gauge how people will respond to these events. Maybe this will be dealt with quickly. Hopefully it will be. It might also overstay it's welcome and still be a topic that keeps MJ and Peter seperated in some ways years form now on, it's possible. So many ways for this to blow up that I wouldn't have okey'ed it if I was an editor. It's possible that what stays with Peter after this event is over is not how supportive MJ was but how she betrayed his trust. According to Spencers design or not.

[xpyred]

Entering into a conversation, or a confrontation as this one is, with the lord of lies without any sort of strategy for handling lies would be extremly foolish. Strange must expect that whatever answers he gets must be weighed against the possible motivation behind them. Probably the whole scene is just an gesture from Strange since he allready knows the answer or has guessed the shape of it.

While I enjoyed the Monologue it's hard for me to get excited since the whole aftermath is just a timebomb. MJ has allready cleared this with Peter and there is no possible fallout of misstrust? Seems doubtful as she stated Peter has enough crap to deal with. So this might go sideways in so many ways. Not to mention that Spencer will one day not write this comic. Will fans and people in Marvel have forgotten this or will it stay in comics history as some events seems to do. It's hard to gauge how people will respond to these events. Maybe this will be dealt with quickly. Hopefully it will be. It might also overstay it's welcome and still be a topic that keeps MJ and Peter seperated in some ways years form now on, it's possible. So many ways for this to blow up that I wouldn't have okey'ed it if I was an editor. It's possible that what stays with Peter after this event is over is not how supportive MJ was but how she betrayed his trust. According to Spencers design or not.

Overall, other than working with Mysterio and possibly remembering the deal, how has MJ betrayed Peter during this run?

[Malachi]

Overall, other than working with Mysterio and possibly remembering the deal, how has MJ betrayed Peter during this run?

Oh I'm talking about the whole "I'm going to tell him soon". It's potential for misstrust in the future is strong. As much as the monologue scene brought them togheter the fallout of MJ keeping Mysterio from Peter might keep them apart. Classic comic soap opera.

[Frontier]

Oh I'm talking about the whole "I'm going to tell him soon". It's potential for misstrust in the future is strong. As much as the monologue scene brought them togheter the fallout of MJ keeping Mysterio from Peter might keep them apart. Classic comic soap opera.

Yeah, she really is taking way, way, too long to tell him. I get that she thinks he has too much on his mind and was probably worried he'd freak out to begin with, but delaying the inevitable only makes it worse.

And I foresee the premier happening in New York to end up being a disaster.

[xpyred]

And I foresee the premier happening in New York to end up being a disaster.

Oh i can see the movie being such a joke that Mysterio is going to lose his mind with rage and MJ will be smack in the middle of his anger. actually...that works well with the torture that Kindred has been putting on Peter. Kindred says the people around him suffer because he is Spider-Man and MJ not telling him she's working with Mysterio on this movie will backfire on Peter because him being Spider-Man enabled MJ to assume she couldn't tell him and therefore its still his fault she suffers whatever happens at the hands of Mysterio.

[Huntsman Spider]

Oh i can see the movie being such a joke that Mysterio is going to lose his mind with rage and MJ will be smack in the middle of his anger. actually...that works well with the torture that Kindred has been putting on Peter. Kindred says the people around him suffer because he is Spider-Man and MJ not telling him she's working with Mysterio on this movie will backfire on Peter because him being Spider-Man enabled MJ to assume she couldn't tell him and therefore its still his fault she suffers whatever happens at the hands of Mysterio.

My only question is, what would motivate Mysterio to take out his anger on Mary Jane other than reminding us that he's still got it in him to be an utter scumbag a la Guardian Devil?

[xpyred]

My only question is, what would motivate Mysterio to take out his anger on Mary Jane other than reminding us that he's still got it in him to be an utter scumbag a la Guardian Devil?

The movie will bomb because let’s be honest it just sounded ridiculous on paper anyhow. She’s insistent on him premiering the film in NY where He’s a known villain so it won’t help his level of embarrassment when that movie bombs

[Huntsman Spider]

The movie will bomb because let’s be honest it just sounded ridiculous on paper anyhow. She’s insistent on him premiering the film in NY where He’s a known villain so it won’t help his level of embarrassment when that movie bombs

Hmm, point. I could see that.

[Orbus]

Kindred had Mysterio hire Mary Jane for the biopic of himself that he's posing as the director for to get her away from Peter.

Mary Jane found out about it being Beck but agreed to go on with the movie because it was her potential big break, she saw potential in the film, and she seemed to believe Mysterio was willing to mend his ways through telling his story in the film.

Thanks for that.

There are many problems in what you say. Not the least of which there is no longer the need for a teenaged Spider-Man named Peter Parker, when you already have Miles. I would also say Peter has not been honest such as lying to Gwen, MJ and Aunt May down through the years, so it is not just MJ being dishonest. As far as MJ is concerned, people love to bring up Mysterio but let’s be honest, please tell me the perfect relationship in fiction? There are always going to be ups and downs ( especially in Spider-Man ( starting with Amazing Fantasy 15)). If someone wants Peter to be Spider-Man 24/7 and have no secret identity, and hang out in Avengers Mansion and shack up with Mockingbird in a “Friends With Benefits” relationship when not fighting crime, I can understand that perspective ( although I do not agree with it). I am a hard core MJ fan, and I do not hide my opinion which is to quote Jarvis from Spencer’s run “Irreplaceable” that is exactly what MJ is. What I do not like are those who do not like MJ and use Mysterio as a way to nit pick at her flaws. I have been against those who look for stupid stuff to bash Gwen and Felicia as well, so I am consistent in this belief.

I'm not saying this is what I want this is what it is. The status quo will always win out, most changes in ongoing superhero fiction are what Stan referred to as "the illusion of change" and any legitimate change will never. It's not because of Marvel and various creators and editors it's also the fans too. The ones who cry the most that nothing ever changes and they endlessly whine and moan when real change happens. Miles has really changed nothing, the character has been in publication since 2012 and throughout most of that time Peter Parker has been single, broke, working at the Bugle and an quasi-outcast superhero. Miles coming into the 616 was used as a reason to give Peter and an entirely new status quo with Parker Industries and it got constant derision.

As for the Mary Jane stuff I've been uneasy about her knowing about the Mephisto deal but I accept that might be a good way to justify why she's never reconciled with Peter in the post-OMD continuity but if it turns out someone is messing with Peter's actual soul and she isn't telling him that's a pretty shocking thing to keep from someone you're supposed to love. Unless there's a good reason for this it's almost as dubious a creative decision as the Mephisto deal itself.

[NC_Yankee]

Thanks for that.



I'm not saying this is what I want this is what it is. The status quo will always win out, most changes in ongoing superhero fiction are what Stan referred to as "the illusion of change" and any legitimate change will never. It's not because of Marvel and various creators and editors it's also the fans too. The ones who cry the most that nothing ever changes and they endlessly whine and moan when real change happens. Miles has really changed nothing, the character has been in publication since 2012 and throughout most of that time Peter Parker has been single, broke, working at the Bugle and an quasi-outcast superhero. Miles coming into the 616 was used as a reason to give Peter and an entirely new status quo with Parker Industries and it got constant derision.

As for the Mary Jane stuff I've been uneasy about her knowing about the Mephisto deal but I accept that might be a good way to justify why she's never reconciled with Peter in the post-OMD continuity but if it turns out someone is messing with Peter's actual soul and she isn't telling him that's a pretty shocking thing to keep from someone you're supposed to love. Unless there's a good reason for this it's almost as dubious a creative decision as the Mephisto deal itself.

One reason MJ never reconciled with Peter is Dan Slott said “I have no use for her.” As far as Miles is concerned, remember he really did not take off until the movie came out ( which interestingly enough had the best portrayal of a Parker love interest in Zoe Kravitz’s MJ). Now Miles is an established character and he can be the teenaged Spider-Man and can have his own girl and school issues while Peter gets his PhD and settles down with MJ.