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  1. #1021
    CBR's Good Fairy Kieran_Frost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    I am well past the point where I am going to waste a second of my time caring about being "Nice..." to you when you clearly cannot be bothered with caring about anyone but yourself.

    Taxing/Fining those folks is just where I would be getting started.
    And that is your right to feel that way, but if I maybe so bold, I think it's because you're letting personal emotions cloud your principles. And I get that you're hurting, and this has been such a hard past 18 months for everyone. Sending you big hugs, bud. But giving into anger or seeking 'revenge' by punishing the unvaccinated won't make you feel better. It won't make you happy, not really. So I'd just advice you to keep holding onto the good things, and the positive thoughts, because it really will make a difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by JackDaw View Post
    I’d suggest it’s all about finding a regime, which encourages near universal vaccination, which feels acceptable to the large majority of people.

    If you look at analogy with smoking mentioned by others…in UK it’s heavily taxed (I guess 70 percent of cost of a packet of cigarettes), and that tax take generates large amounts of money that benefits non smokers and smokers alike. (It’s a long time since I looked at figures, but last time I did it more than paid for extra health care caused by smoking.) In addition smokers accept they cannot smoke in many places, to protect others health.

    The legal regime is about right I feel. (Though obviously I’d prefer everyone to stop smoking, it’s ruined the life of people I love.)

    Similarly I feel we should make non-vaccination less attractive. Presently I’d stop short of imposing fines or charging extra for an element of health care…but would be more comfortable with “vaccine passports” being used more widely for things like pubs, restaurants, football matches, etc.

    But think I’m in minority on that in UK…think majority are still reasonably happy to try to just encourage even wider vaccination by stressing the positive health benefits.
    I had no problem with the vaccination passports. It seems such an odd thing to be such a pro-vaccination nation, but so against proving you're vaccinated with an ID card. Oh well.
    Last edited by Kieran_Frost; 01-17-2022 at 08:09 AM.
    "We are Shakespeare. We are Michelangelo. We are Tchaikovsky. We are Turing. We are Mercury. We are Wilde. We are Lincoln, Lorca, Leonardo da Vinci. We are Alexander the Great. We are Fredrick the Great. We are Rustin. We are Addams. We are Marsha! Marsha Marsha Marsha! We so generous, we DeGeneres. We are Ziggy Stardust hooked to the silver screen. Controversially we are Malcolm X. We are Plato. We are Aristotle. We are RuPaul, god dammit! And yes, we are Woolf."

  2. #1022

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    I agree that vaccine mandades are going to be hard to pass, but I don't know what else is there to do. I don't personally care about the cost of treatment of the unvaccinated people, I am lucky to live in a country with universal healthcare and even though it strains the government's budget, I am not likely to feel it significantly in the future (hopefully).

    What I care about is that the unvaccinated people willingly put others at risk and once they need to be hospitalized, they take up the space and resources that people with other conditions need. Forget about the money, if even one person dies because they could not get an operation that could save their life, whether it is cancer, appendix, or what ever else, that is unforgivable. And it has happened and will continue to happen, because the hospitals are full, staff is exhausted, there is not enough of beds and all of that could be avoided if people just had the basic empathy for other human beings and got their heads out of their asses for long enough to listen to doctors, instead of random people on facebook that are probably vaccinated themselves and take pleasure in spreading misinformation for reasons I don't even want to know.

    If those people who don't trust doctors and science enough to take the vaccine kept that same principle and decided to treat themselves at home, fine, that I could accept, but of course that's not the case, once their symptoms get serious they will go to the hospital and suddenly want to be treated by doctors, in worse cases they even harrass them as well. That's the part that bothers me most. I don't need or want to see unvaccinated people being fined for their decisions, I don't care about them. I just want them to stop endangering decent people.

  3. #1023
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    From what the Quebec government has said--and they've been very vague--I don't think it can be called a tax. If it were a tax, then a good lawyer could probably get his client out of paying the tax. Of course, the legal cost might be more than it's worth to pay the tax. But someone with deep pockets who just wants to prove a point could hire a legal team and defeat the tax.

    As a fine, it's a penalty for not abiding by some law. So there needs to be a law in place and then a fine for not doing what the law says. Again, depending on the amount of the fine, it might just be easier to pay the fine and keep doing what you're doing.

    For rich people, either way, it doesn't seem like a deterrent. It has no teeth. So who is going to suffer the most? The poor--as always. People who are already in a bad place financially are going to be charged more money. And who are the people who suffer the most because of the virus? The poor.

    Plus ça change, plus c'est la męme chose.
    Out of the night, when the full moon is bright, comes the horseman known as Zorro.
    This bold renegade carves a "Zee" with his blade, a "Zee" that stands for Zorro.


  4. #1024
    Incredible Member Captain Nostalgia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JackDaw View Post
    IÂ’d suggest itÂ’s all about finding a regime, which encourages near universal vaccination, which feels acceptable to the large majority of people.

    If you look at analogy with smoking mentioned by othersÂ…in UK itÂ’s heavily taxed (I guess 70 percent of cost of a packet of cigarettes), and that tax take generates large amounts of money that benefits non smokers and smokers alike. (ItÂ’s a long time since I looked at figures, but last time I did it more than paid for extra health care caused by smoking.) In addition smokers accept they cannot smoke in many places, to protect others health.

    The legal regime is about right I feel. (Though obviously IÂ’d prefer everyone to stop smoking, itÂ’s ruined the life of people I love.)

    Similarly I feel we should make non-vaccination less attractive. Presently I’d stop short of imposing fines or charging extra for an element of health care…but would be more comfortable with “vaccine passports” being used more widely for things like pubs, restaurants, football matches, etc.

    But think IÂ’m in minority on that in UKÂ…think majority are still reasonably happy to try to just encourage even wider vaccination by stressing the positive health benefits.
    Most Canadian Provinces have enacted vaccine passports. (You cannot go to the bar, restaurant, gym, or concert) without one. They have been effective in containing the spread. I'm surprised the UK gov hasn't implemented them.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kieran_Frost View Post
    There are... they die. They get long Covid. They experience serious damaging long term effects, which will effect their quality of life. THAT is the consequence.

    It's not always political beliefs. And don't get me wrong, GOD, unvaccinated people drive me crazy. They have so little logic to their opinions. But it's their right to not be vaccinated, as sh*tty as it is. It's people's right to never get a job and live off the state, or eat a cheeseburger a day, smoke two packs a day. And I may not agree with their choice in any of it. But we don't start withholding medical care. That's just wrong. Withhold privileges, absolutely. If you're not vaccinated you can't have this job, go to this restaurant, enter this tennis tournament, absolutely. Those are privileges. Medical care is like education, it's a fundamental right we cannot withhold because we don't like their choices or who they are as people.
    I never said withhold health care from people, I said bill them when get out.

    As cold as it sounds it's about creating a deterrent so that people get vaccinated. (Particularly the young. Anti Vaccers are a small but noisy contingent of the overall population)

    Nevertheless, some people are playing the luxury of putting their political beliefs before a global health pandemic. Largely because they hold paranoid political beliefs about their civil liberties. If that's the case, instead of passing a bill that attempts to force vaccination, than send the libertarian message they understand. You make a choice and than you get billed for the service for your choice. No government is strong arming you there.

  5. #1025

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    UK Covid daily cases plunge 40% in just one week with 84,429 more recorded
    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-new...cases-25970269

    Covid cases have plunged 40% as a further 84,429 cases are recorded across UK.

    A further 85 deaths has also been recorded in the last 24 hours.

    Last Monday 142,224 tested positive across the UK in 24 hours prior - with a further 77 deaths.

    It comes as rules on isolation in England, and Omicron restrictions in Scotland and Wales, are all being relaxed slightly.

    That has fueled hope that in England, Plan B - with Covid passes for nightclubs and work-from-home guidance - will end on January 26.

    Asked if Plan B will end on time, Boris Johnson ’s spokesman said today: “There are some encouraging signs that infections are falling across the country, we would want to see that mirrored in the latest ONS data as well.

    “There are also some signs of falls or at least plateauing in admissions and occupancy in hospital, which is good to see."

    However, he warned the NHS is still under significant pressure and “we are keeping a very close eye on the data”.
    Krakoa and Arakko forever!

  6. #1026
    CBR's Good Fairy Kieran_Frost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catlady in training View Post
    I agree that vaccine mandades are going to be hard to pass, but I don't know what else is there to do. I don't personally care about the cost of treatment of the unvaccinated people, I am lucky to live in a country with universal healthcare and even though it strains the government's budget, I am not likely to feel it significantly in the future (hopefully).
    Honestly, I sometimes think it might be better just to make it the law to be vaccinated. I KNOW we can't, but at-least that dodges the horrible moral issue of fining and bills and ostracizing. Though it presents far worse hurdles. Ughhh, I do not envy the leaders right now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catlady in training View Post
    What I care about is that the unvaccinated people willingly put others at risk and once they need to be hospitalized, they take up the space and resources that people with other conditions need. Forget about the money, if even one person dies because they could not get an operation that could save their life, whether it is cancer, appendix, or what ever else, that is unforgivable. And it has happened and will continue to happen, because the hospitals are full, staff is exhausted, there is not enough of beds and all of that could be avoided if people just had the basic empathy for other human beings and got their heads out of their asses for long enough to listen to doctors, instead of random people on facebook that are probably vaccinated themselves and take pleasure in spreading misinformation for reasons I don't even want to know.

    If those people who don't trust doctors and science enough to take the vaccine kept that same principle and decided to treat themselves at home, fine, that I could accept, but of course that's not the case, once their symptoms get serious they will go to the hospital and suddenly want to be treated by doctors, in worse cases they even harrass them as well. That's the part that bothers me most. I don't need or want to see unvaccinated people being fined for their decisions, I don't care about them. I just want them to stop endangering decent people.
    Agreed. But I can't see a solution that is both just and helpful. The downside of free will and democracy is sometimes people we don't like get to have opinions we don't agree with, and it sucks, and can effect others in horrible ways. All we can do is hope that the majority is good, and does the right thing. And over time more and more make that decision. And by and large I think they do. There's hope for us yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Nostalgia View Post
    I never said withhold health care from people, I said bill them when get out.
    You... can't honestly see where this leads? And what about those who can't afford it? Do you know how expensive medical treatment is that goes on for weeks? You'll bankrupt a whole bunch of people, or worse, force them to not get treatment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Nostalgia View Post
    Nevertheless, some people are playing the luxury of putting their political beliefs before a global health pandemic. Largely because they hold paranoid political beliefs about their civil liberties. If that's the case, instead of passing a bill that attempts to force vaccination, than send the libertarian message they understand. You make a choice and than you get billed for the service for your choice. No government is strong arming you there.
    Yes, let's start dissecting the population, billing those we don't agree and giving things free to those who side with our opinions. That sounds like a WONDERFUL idea that couldn't possibly go wrong down the line.
    Last edited by Kieran_Frost; 01-18-2022 at 03:45 AM.
    "We are Shakespeare. We are Michelangelo. We are Tchaikovsky. We are Turing. We are Mercury. We are Wilde. We are Lincoln, Lorca, Leonardo da Vinci. We are Alexander the Great. We are Fredrick the Great. We are Rustin. We are Addams. We are Marsha! Marsha Marsha Marsha! We so generous, we DeGeneres. We are Ziggy Stardust hooked to the silver screen. Controversially we are Malcolm X. We are Plato. We are Aristotle. We are RuPaul, god dammit! And yes, we are Woolf."

  7. #1027
    Incredible Member Captain Nostalgia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kieran_Frost View Post
    Honestly, I sometimes think it might be better just to make it the law to be vaccinated. I KNOW we can't, but at-least that dodges the horrible moral issue of fining and bills and ostracizing. Though it presents far worse hurdles. Ughhh, I do not envy the leaders right now.


    Agreed. But I can't see a solution that is both just and helpful. The downside of free will and democracy is sometimes people we don't like get to have opinions we don't agree with, and it sucks, and can effect others in horrible ways. All we can do is hope that the majority is good, and does the right thing. And over time more and more make that decision. And by and large I think they do. There's hope for us yet.


    You... can't honestly see where this leads? And what about those who can't afford it? Do you know how expensive medical treatment is that goes on for weeks? You'll bankrupt a whole bunch of people, or worse, force them to not get treatment.


    Yes, let's start dissecting the population, billing those we don't agree and giving things free to those who side with our opinions. That sounds like a WONDERFUL idea that couldn't possibly down the line.
    Your ideas are enabling anti vaccers...

    You don't want to go the libertarian route of charging them for choosing not to get vaccinated by making them pay their own medical bill, but...

    You don't want to tax them either because that's state socialism that interferes with their individual rights.

    So basically your giving them an out of jail card for free, with no consequence for an over burdened public health care system that's getting financially pushed to the brink, because it wasn't designed to cope with a pandemic.

  8. #1028
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    Quote Originally Posted by thwhtGuardian View Post
    Eh, you're giving anti-vaxxers too much credit, this isn't just simple confirmation bias...we're talking about people who were far from the brightest bulbs in the pack to begin with. Low intelligence people + poor/fake information = bad decisions.

    I think that you've hit the nail on the head perfectly. Too much misinformation out there about the vaccines.
    Maybe one answer to the unvaccinated should be that they pay more for Heath Insurance .
    Let the free market decide . These unvaccinated people are all about their freedom and all that which is crap.
    I'm vaccinated and I didn't lose my freedom.
    Last edited by TheKryptonMan; 01-17-2022 at 07:48 PM.

  9. #1029
    Invincible Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Nostalgia View Post
    Your ideas are enabling anti vaccers...

    You don't want to go the libertarian route of charging them for choosing not to get vaccinated by making them pay their own medical bill, but...

    You don't want to tax them either because that's state socialism that interferes with their individual rights.

    So basically your giving them an out of jail card for free, with no consequence for an over burdened public health care system that's getting financially pushed to the brink, because it wasn't designed to cope with a pandemic.
    Never mind that there are plenty of places in America right now where someone can collect unemployment if they have been fired for refusing to be vaccinated.

    It should not be all upside for people who are placing the rest of the population at risk.

    Past time that they should have to deal with really basic consequences.

  10. #1030
    Invincible Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kieran_Frost View Post
    ...

    You... can't honestly see where this leads? And what about those who can't afford it? Do you know how expensive medical treatment is that goes on for weeks? You'll bankrupt a whole bunch of people, or worse, force them to not get treatment.

    ...
    Put them on the same sort of a payment plan that anyone with a student loan has to be a responsible human being and deal with.

  11. #1031
    CBR's Good Fairy Kieran_Frost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Nostalgia View Post
    Your ideas are enabling anti vaccers...
    I highly doubt that

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Nostalgia View Post
    You don't want to go the libertarian route of charging them for choosing not to get vaccinated by making them pay their own medical bill, but...
    You don't want to tax them either because that's state socialism that interferes with their individual rights. So basically your giving them an out of jail card for free, with no consequence for an over burdened public health care system that's getting financially pushed to the brink, because it wasn't designed to cope with a pandemic.
    The consequence is they will suffer and stand a very high chance of dying when they contract it. THAT is the consequence, but one very much of their making. Not one forced upon them as punishment by others. Big difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    Put them on the same sort of a payment plan that anyone with a student loan has to be a responsible human being and deal with.
    Again... apples and oranges (which is ironic). A student loan is when you choose to go to university, gaining benefits from education and a diploma to further your career. It's a choice to go to university and take out a loan, it's not the same thing at all. Medical assistance should not be something anyone is given or not given based on the choices they make. It should be given freely to those who need it, because that is what a good society does.
    Last edited by Kieran_Frost; 01-18-2022 at 03:44 AM.
    "We are Shakespeare. We are Michelangelo. We are Tchaikovsky. We are Turing. We are Mercury. We are Wilde. We are Lincoln, Lorca, Leonardo da Vinci. We are Alexander the Great. We are Fredrick the Great. We are Rustin. We are Addams. We are Marsha! Marsha Marsha Marsha! We so generous, we DeGeneres. We are Ziggy Stardust hooked to the silver screen. Controversially we are Malcolm X. We are Plato. We are Aristotle. We are RuPaul, god dammit! And yes, we are Woolf."

  12. #1032
    Invincible Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kieran_Frost View Post
    ...

    Again... apples and oranges (which is ironic). A student loan is when you choose to go to university, gaining benefits from education and a diploma to further your career. It's a choice to go to university and take out a loan, it's not the same thing at all. Medical assistance should not be something anyone is given or not given based on the choices they make. It should be given freely to those who need it, because that is what a good society does.
    If society has to step in to save your bacon because you could not be bothered to throw a life jacket on because you jumped in a lake without knowing how to swim?

    That is absolutely a benefit. That you will likely live when you would most likely not without treatment? That will further your life.

    So, yes. It is absolutely an apt comparison. You have folks who are choosing to turn up at a hospital based on their own call not to get a shot.

    As for "Those Who Need It..."?

    Probably more than seven times out of ten?

    This "Need..." does not exist in reasonable adults who get a shot. Only in folks who are creating it with their own foolishness.

  13. #1033

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    I wish the CDC had more granular data the likes of which I've been seeing in Australia, Germany, and the UK.
    With cases at an all time high but hospitalizations and deaths remaining mostly flat (and decreasing in some areas), that means both the vaccinated and unvaccinated are recovering from omicron's mostly mild symptoms. With the CDC director recently saying that 75% of deaths had at least 4 co-morbidities, I wonder what those being hospitalized are also dealing with. Because the vast majority of the population is surviving omicron better than any other variant.

    In other news, Israel was one of the first countries to roll out a 4th shot (2nd booster). Results of their initial studies on this are coming in.

    Israel study: 4th vaccine shows limited results with omicron
    https://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireSt...icron-82312196

    An Israeli hospital on Monday said preliminary research indicates a fourth dose of the coronavirus vaccine provides only limited defense against the omicron variant that is raging around the world.

    Sheba Hospital last month began administering a fourth vaccine to more than 270 medical workers — 154 who received a Pfizer-BioNtech vaccine and 120 others who received Moderna's. All had previously been vaccinated three times with the Pfizer-BioNtech vaccine.

    The clinical trial found that both groups showed increases in antibodies “slightly higher” than following the third vaccine last year. But it said the increased antibodies did not prevent the spread of omicron.

    “Despite increased antibody levels, the fourth vaccine only offers a partial defense against the virus,” said Dr. Gili Regev-Yochay, director of the hospital's infection disease unit. “The vaccines, which were more effective against previous variants, offer less protection versus omicron."
    Krakoa and Arakko forever!

  14. #1034

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kieran_Frost View Post
    Agreed. But I can't see a solution that is both just and helpful. The downside of free will and democracy is sometimes people we don't like get to have opinions we don't agree with, and it sucks, and can effect others in horrible ways. All we can do is hope that the majority is good, and does the right thing. And over time more and more make that decision. And by and large I think they do. There's hope for us yet.
    I used to be optimistic like that, but the last few years, even before the pandemic, are making me more and more pessimistic. At this point I don't even know if it wouldn't be better if we all just died and left the planet for animals, before we destroy it completely.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kieran_Frost View Post
    The consequence is they will suffer and stand a very high chance of dying when they contract it. THAT is the consequence, but one very much of their making. Not one forced upon them as punishment by others. Big difference.
    Again, the problem is not antivaccers dying (at least I don't give a fuck anymore), the problem is how many people they take with them. There are people who have medical reasons why they can't get vaccinated and those who have other conditions that make them more vulnerable even if they get vaccinated. Not to mention people with other conditions who might not get the healtcare they need because of those selfish people.
    And it's not just vaccinations, the same people who refuse to get vaccinated usually refuse to follow other safety measures too, like wear masks, stay home, etc.

  15. #1035

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    Scotland Omicron restrictions to end on Monday, says Nicola Sturgeon
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-b1995427.html

    First minister Nicola Sturgeon has announced that all Covid restrictions brought in to deal with the Omicron wave in Scotland will be lifted from next Monday – including curbs on the hospitality sector.

    The temporary limits on attendance at indoor events, mandatory table service in pubs and restaurants and the closure of nightclubs will all be scrapped from 24 January.

    “I can confirm that all of these measures will be lifted from next Monday,” said Ms Sturgeon.

    She also announced that the guidance asking people to stick to a three-household limit on indoor social gatherings would end on Monday.

    The first minister said she was “confident we have turned a corner on the Omicron wave” in Scotland. “We are now on the downward slope of cases,” the SNP leader told the Scottish parliament.
    I hope they are successful.
    Krakoa and Arakko forever!

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