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  1. #226
    Incredible Member Nazrel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frostedemma View Post
    CotV are like the clones executing Order 66 except instead of having a chip inserted in their brain (that can be removed), they have been engineered into organic nimrods with their core mission to eradicate both mutants and humans.
    Umm... haven't read the issues, and you should never trust a wiki; but I am vaguely aware of at at least one outlier of that supposition.

    https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Luz_(Earth-616)
    Context is king.

    X-23's most basic surface level characteristic that any idiot should grasp: Stoicism.
    I don't demand that her every minor appearance be a nuance in-depth examination of her character, but is it to much to ask she be written in Archetype?! This is storytelling 101! If you want people to stay invested in a character, you need to, at the bare minimum, write them such a way that they can plausibly be believed to be the same character!

  2. #227
    Incredible Member frostedemma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rang10 View Post
    let's kill people before they commit crimes.

    If the mission ws to kill and not stealth, the should had choose much more brute force to destroy all city.

    If they can be taken down so easily, they aren't a threat
    Did you read hox/pox? Or issue #5? Serafina left the vault to scout the earth to check if the cotv can proceed with their world domination plan

  3. #228

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    Iím quite behind on Lauraís current stance, but Goddess be Praised that Hickman had her take on the Wolverine mantle again. Hopefully Marvel can embrace two characters with the Wolverine codename going forward after she returns from the Vault and not revert all that character growth and development going back to X-23 yet again.
    Emma Frost, Rogue, Felicia Hardy, Helena Bertinelli, Allison Blaire, Barbara Gordon, Monica Rambeau, Carol Danvers, Illyana Rasputin, Ororo Munroe, Harleen Quinzel, Lorna Dane, Irene Adler, Kate Kane, Rachel Grey Summers, Jean Grey, Diana Prince, Barbara Ann Minerva, Donna Troy, Jennifer Walters, Gwen Stacy, Wanda Maximoff = PERFECTION!

  4. #229
    Invincible Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Past that...

    Before this issue, what is there in the past that would lead anyone to believe that the group in question was a bunch of pushovers that are not a threat?

    From what I can remember, just about every single time these characters have ever appeared points in the opposite direction.

  5. #230
    Invincible Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    As for this bit...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rang10 View Post
    let's kill people before they commit crimes.

    If the mission ws to kill and not stealth, the should had choose much more brute force to destroy all city.

    If they can be taken down so easily, they aren't a threat
    You actually addressed it yourself...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rang10 View Post
    Cotv are programmed they can't choose
    If you are even remotely correct when it comes to the latter, there is an issue with the former assertion.

    If you have been "Programmed..."?

    There's no version of things where you have the freewill not to be a killer.

  6. #231
    Incredible Member frostedemma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    Past that...

    Before this issue, what is there in the past that would lead anyone to believe that the group in question was a bunch of pushovers that are not a threat?

    From what I can remember, just about every single time these characters have ever appeared points in the opposite direction.
    They literally exterminated the entire human race (both mutants and humans) and took over the planet in basically all of Moira's past lives, yet somehow the trio should have have sat down and built daisy chains with them and talk about their feelings and check for any conscious objectors amongst the genetically engineered fascist eugenists.

  7. #232
    The Best There Is Wolverine12's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ambaryerno View Post
    You'd think a city as "sparsely populated" as they state would have had plenty of places to hide and, you know, not be seen. Think of how much time it can take a concerted manhunt IRL to find a fugitive. And that's with multiple agencies and millions of eyes.
    Can you hide if the actual City can see you though? Like I said before the stories not done and the warning bells were set off immediately. That doesn't even address the fact that the the trio had no idea of the layout of the city and what they would encounter blindly running through it. They chose to fight and eliminate an immediate threat. Is it nice, no, is it pragmatic and a solid solution to an immediate problem, I'd say yes. Will it get them into more trouble than if they had chosen to hide? We'll find out next issue I suppose.
    You brought back Wolverine

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  8. #233
    Mighty Member pkingdom's Avatar
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    The exact same arguments to slaughter them all can easily be applied to all of mutankind based on the kinds of things Apocalypse and Magneto have tried. And in none of Moira's did they say the CotV were the ones who took over the planet. In their past appearances the CotV were depicted as threats, but were never successful or powerful enough to be this kind of kill-on-site threat. They were just another in a long line of villain groups that their actions on the page didn't match up to what the narration and exposition built them up as.

    And hey, talking to them worked out with Hickman's Children of Tomorrow, who are basically their counterparts.

  9. #234
    Astonishing Member Omega Alpha's Avatar
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    Yeah, how horrible it is to attack people whose entire ideology and reason to being is to violently take over the world in their name of their so-called superior race, enslaving and murdering anyone that stands in their way, and has the wrong genes, who are in active preparation and planning to do so. The only reasonable route is do nothing and wait. Maybe we can even try to negotiate while they gather strength and plan their moves, and even try to keep them happy and appease them with some concessions. That has worked well before.

  10. #235
    Mighty Member Hulkout42's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nandes View Post
    Where are the other entrances to the vault, then? They knew from the start that it was a high risk mission and that they probably had intense security measures, which is why they sent the only three mutants who could probably survive the enviroment. Cyclops himself admits he might have fucked up back in issue 5, because the entire mission was a big gamble. And how do you know they learned nothing when this isn't the end of the arc?

    They were there for intel, got caught immediately because of the security systems, and had to respond because the City sent the CotV to wipe them up
    They could have not taken the damn elevator in the first place, they had Darwin who could have evolved some flight capability that the other guy could have duplicated and carried them down.

    And why would you wait for people to come to the elevator instead of moving around the city as soon as you enter it? That made no sense. As soon as they got off they should have gone stealth mode but instead they wait there? For what exactly? They had no way of knowing if they got caught or not because there was no indication from the Children signaling for intruders, we only know they got caught because the AI knew and said so but didn't sound a citywide alert and instead sends a small group.

    I am aware this isn't over yet because we know one of them gave a report, but the thing is three people aren't enough to lay siege to a city with an unknown number of enemy combatants or what their powers are, so lets assume they somehow they get out or at least Synch got out, the Children would still be aware of them and their infiltration so naturally they either up security, they get more people, move locations, any number of things that make any intel they get right now utterly useless except that the Children now know the mutants are searching for them and will be ready for the X-men.

  11. #236
    Mighty Member Hulkout42's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    I'm interested to see if the attraction between Laura and Everett developed during their long stay in the vault and they emerge from the Vault as a couple, next issue.
    I initially had an issue with how subtle Synch's power signature was depicted but...in retrospect it makes sense if his power is "on" continuously, that it wouldn't be as bold.
    I don't think that's going to happen given that they just got nuked at point blank range, and while Darwin and possibly Synch could survive this i really doubt Laura will come out and pull a Logan after fighting some supernatural Shinigami in the edge of life and death. Frankly i expect to see a trio of metal claws on the ground and the other two reeling from the attack. Also the Laura we got here doesn't seem to be the one we saw later working with Psylocke or going back to the X-23 moniker.

  12. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by pkingdom View Post
    The exact same arguments to slaughter them all can easily be applied to all of mutankind based on the kinds of things Apocalypse and Magneto have tried. And in none of Moira's did they say the CotV were the ones who took over the planet. In their past appearances the CotV were depicted as threats, but were never successful or powerful enough to be this kind of kill-on-site threat. They were just another in a long line of villain groups that their actions on the page didn't match up to what the narration and exposition built them up as.

    And hey, talking to them worked out with Hickman's Children of Tomorrow, who are basically their counterparts.
    No it can't because mutants are pre-programming indoctrinated at birth to take over the world. Enough of these bad faith arguments.

    Like I can see that she would have a point if the the X-Men hadn't encountered the children of the Vault before and they didn't send a Recon team into hostile enemy territory and we the reader didn't get explicitly to told that the children of the Vault want to take over the world.
    Last edited by loke13; 02-25-2021 at 09:57 PM.

  13. #238
    Mighty Member Hulkout42's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frostedemma View Post
    People defending the CotV on here and calling them victims to the X-men, what's next the X-men were actually the bad guys in house of x for foiling Orchis plans and stopping the mother mold from coming online?
    No, of course not, out in the open for everyone to see they are good guys...it's what happens behind the scenes where it gets messy.

    I mean what else do you call it when Xavier and Lensherr call Raven to task for not assassinating a woman when she was sleeping in her bed? Or when they altered Domino's mind and body after she said she wanted to keep the trauma and scars? Or when Beast pretty much killed a country and stole tech from the trio of elderly plant lovers? Or when they ordered the death of those AI who rebelled against android and did not want to hurt the Hellions? Or when Storm seemed ok with the idea that Wolverine assassinate Saturnyne during XoS?

    Those actions don't exactly paint a pretty picture IMO.

  14. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hulkout42 View Post
    No, of course not, out in the open for everyone to see they are good guys...it's what happens behind the scenes where it gets messy.

    I mean what else do you call it when Xavier and Lensherr call Raven to task for not assassinating a woman when she was sleeping in her bed? Or when they altered Domino's mind and body after she said she wanted to keep the trauma and scars? Or when Beast pretty much killed a country and stole tech from the trio of elderly plant lovers? Or when they ordered the death of those AI who rebelled against android and did not want to hurt the Hellions? Or when Storm seemed ok with the idea that Wolverine assassinate Saturnyne during XoS?

    Those actions don't exactly paint a pretty picture IMO.
    The point being is that the X-Men or somehow in the wrong for trying to stop a bunch of genocidal maniacs hell bent on world domination.

    And yes there are many X-characters who can operate in morally grey areas and have no problem getting their hands dirty. There's a reason why one of the most popular X-Men character is a hairy man with knives coming out of his fist
    Last edited by loke13; 02-25-2021 at 10:07 PM.

  15. #240
    The Best There Is Wolverine12's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hulkout42 View Post
    No, of course not, out in the open for everyone to see they are good guys...it's what happens behind the scenes where it gets messy.

    I mean what else do you call it when Xavier and Lensherr call Raven to task for not assassinating a woman when she was sleeping in her bed? Or when they altered Domino's mind and body after she said she wanted to keep the trauma and scars? Or when Beast pretty much killed a country and stole tech from the trio of elderly plant lovers? Or when they ordered the death of those AI who rebelled against android and did not want to hurt the Hellions? Or when Storm seemed ok with the idea that Wolverine assassinate Saturnyne during XoS?

    Those actions don't exactly paint a pretty picture IMO.
    Beast's actions in X-Force, the androids and Domino I would agree were pretty bad or at least morally grey, the rest I would say you're leaving out a lot of context in the picture you're painting. The sleeping lady was responsible for mother mold, she should probably be executed for attempted genocide. The elderly plant lovers hijacked the Krakoan gates, Beast just figured out some of their tech as well. Saturnyne was playing games with the earth on the line. It's not like the X-Men are out there hunting innocents, all of these actions were responsive not proactive.
    You brought back Wolverine

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