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  1. #241
    Astonishing Member Hulkout42's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by loke13 View Post
    The point being is that the X-Men or somehow in the wrong for trying to stop a bunch of genocidal maniacs hell bent on world domination.

    And yes there are many X-characters who can operate in morally grey areas and have no problem getting their hands dirty. There's a reason why one of the most popular X-Men character is a hairy man with knives coming out of his fist
    These are just my thoughts, i do not speak for anyone else but myself.

    I agree, the CotV need to be stopped, they want the world and will take it by force. That is their intent and need to be stopped before they have the numbers to enact such an action. They are no better than Knull, the Cotati, the people under the command of the Peacock dude etc.

    But that's not my issue with what i read, my problems with this is that they are sent to gather info for any future conflicts and to me that means stealth and tactical planning in an unknown environment with an unknown enemy and i didn't see that.

    What I saw then getting on an elevator all wily nilly without thinking "Hey maybe there's a sensor here?" and then waiting for the enemy with no explanation on how they knew they were spotted.
    People argue that the AI and the city would have detected them regardless, i can abide by that logic but the problem is that it didn't detect them until they got on the damn elevator. And maybe i am wrong but i feel they could have avoided that all together because Darwin would have sprouted wings or levitated and Synch could have just duplicated it and both carried Laura down and they avoid the Elevator and we get a few more panels where they get to investigate the city before they would have been inevitably caught because they were always going to get caught because that's what happens when on a suicide mission.

    Then we move to after the AI alerts them to the intrusion, it doesn't sound a citywide alert, or they don't show it, that gives away its awareness of the X-men's presence and therefore they have no reason to believe they were caught but still they get off the elevator and just wait for the Children to come to them because they know they were spotted? Does nobody else find this both confusing and somewhat stupid but me? Now if the next time we see them they give an explanation then cool, i take back all the bad things i said and thought, if they don't they i will be even more pissed.

    That's my problem with what i read, it's not that i don't agree with the thought that they need to stop them by any means or that there will be morally questionable actions taken to achieve this, its the lack of well thought out actions.

    Laura given her past and training should know all this but instead i see her acting like an idiot just like Logan, which frankly was another thing that ticked me off, i don't care if in the process of defending herself and her team she off's some of them because that's how far she will go to defend someone if it needs to go there, i just don't want her to act like Logan and be an idiot.

  2. #242
    Astonishing Member Hulkout42's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolverine12 View Post
    Beast's actions in X-Force, the androids and Domino I would agree were pretty bad or at least morally grey, the rest I would say you're leaving out a lot of context in the picture you're painting. The sleeping lady was responsible for mother mold, she should probably be executed for attempted genocide. The elderly plant lovers hijacked the Krakoan gates, Beast just figured out some of their tech as well. Saturnyne was playing games with the earth on the line. It's not like the X-Men are out there hunting innocents, all of these actions were responsive not proactive.
    Yes she built it, but did she have the bloodlust she has now before or after the X-men attacked? Was she planning on building NIMROD before or after her husband got killed in an attempt to stop them? My issue here isn't what she did or what is going to do, my issue here is you don't wound the snake so it can strike again, you cut its head off. If you are going to show them on a morally ambiguous mission then send the gray characters to make sure nothing is left to hurt them and not a team made up a of doogooders and two gray characters. And what if Mother Mold was the mission anyway? I mean Mystique was sent back in case NIMROD did show up and take care of anyone involved IN SECRET by Xavier and Lensherr because they couldn't let anyone one find out they were breaking their no kill law.

    He figured it out after he stole it from them, they are not going to take kindly to that and what comes next is on him.

    And despite her tactics Saturnyne "games" did also end up benefiting them and even saving them such as the case of Cable bringing in SWORD base because she told him where as if Wolverine had succeeded it would have been game over as she showed him, and let's not forget that because that stance he took and which Storm supported it ruined any chance of diplomacy Betsy and especially Brian could have made to put a stop to it before it escalated the way it did. And Saturnyne wasn't involved until Apocalypse enacted his plan and people got killed because of it, if anything he is just responsible for the people who died do to the sequence of events he started in Excalibur without the consent of the Council until there was no turning back.

    The X-men are not hurting innocents but actions are being taken in secret without the rest of them knowing that will come back to haunt all of them and frankly they should because their needs to be consequences.

  3. #243
    Mighty Member pkingdom's Avatar
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    Its not bad faith to point out the CotV plan is pretty much the same as several plans made by mutant villains over the years. Nobody is saying the CotV are the good guys here. Problem is that groups like them are a dime a dozen in Marvel, and they haven't done anything to feel like that much bigger a threat than any of those other groups. Yes, one of them inflitrated the X mansion in their debut. That happened all the time. And when other heroes encounter these similar groups, they don't immediately default to murdering them all. And that its Laura, who's backstory is very similar to the kind of thing the CotV are put through, is slaughtering them with no comment, just rubs salt in the wound.

  4. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hulkout42 View Post
    These are just my thoughts, i do not speak for anyone else but myself.

    I agree, the CotV need to be stopped, they want the world and will take it by force. That is their intent and need to be stopped before they have the numbers to enact such an action. They are no better than Knull, the Cotati, the people under the command of the Peacock dude etc.

    But that's not my issue with what i read, my problems with this is that they are sent to gather info for any future conflicts and to me that means stealth and tactical planning in an unknown environment with an unknown enemy and i didn't see that.

    What I saw then getting on an elevator all wily nilly without thinking "Hey maybe there's a sensor here?" and then waiting for the enemy with no explanation on how they knew they were spotted.
    People argue that the AI and the city would have detected them regardless, i can abide by that logic but the problem is that it didn't detect them until they got on the damn elevator. And maybe i am wrong but i feel they could have avoided that all together because Darwin would have sprouted wings or levitated and Synch could have just duplicated it and both carried Laura down and they avoid the Elevator and we get a few more panels where they get to investigate the city before they would have been inevitably caught because they were always going to get caught because that's what happens when on a suicide mission.

    Then we move to after the AI alerts them to the intrusion, it doesn't sound a citywide alert, or they don't show it, that gives away its awareness of the X-men's presence and therefore they have no reason to believe they were caught but still they get off the elevator and just wait for the Children to come to them because they know they were spotted? Does nobody else find this both confusing and somewhat stupid but me? Now if the next time we see them they give an explanation then cool, i take back all the bad things i said and thought, if they don't they i will be even more pissed.

    That's my problem with what i read, it's not that i don't agree with the thought that they need to stop them by any means or that there will be morally questionable actions taken to achieve this, its the lack of well thought out actions.

    Laura given her past and training should know all this but instead i see her acting like an idiot just like Logan, which frankly was another thing that ticked me off, i don't care if in the process of defending herself and her team she off's some of them because that's how far she will go to defend someone if it needs to go there, i just don't want her to act like Logan and be an idiot.
    Well, they are basically prisoner in the Vault, it's not like they can do recognition and leave, and the Vault technology means they could be spotted sooner than later and not realising until it's too late. So they go the other way around, and it's actually strategical: eliminate the threat first, investigate later. I think that's what would happen in real life with this kind of mission honestly.

  5. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hulkout42 View Post
    Yes she built it, but did she have the bloodlust she has now before or after the X-men attacked? Was she planning on building NIMROD before or after her husband got killed in an attempt to stop them? My issue here isn't what she did or what is going to do, my issue here is you don't wound the snake so it can strike again, you cut its head off. If you are going to show them on a morally ambiguous mission then send the gray characters to make sure nothing is left to hurt them and not a team made up a of doogooders and two gray characters. And what if Mother Mold was the mission anyway? I mean Mystique was sent back in case NIMROD did show up and take care of anyone involved IN SECRET by Xavier and Lensherr because they couldn't let anyone one find out they were breaking their no kill law.
    I don't think the kill no humans law to do with this at all. Yes they have a law that says to not kill humans, but the law doesn't say to not kill humans no matter what even if fighting to the death against genocidal maniacs. Even in the story itself Jane says something along the lines of we are not here to kill everyone, many of this people are soldiers with misplaced intentions etc. but she doesn't say we won't kill anyone even if it means we will all die and the mission will fail. Sabertooth case was different, he killed without any reason, on account of being a psychopath. And X-Force it's still different, they have discretion of doing whatever they want, meaning their actions won't be judged. For the rest I guess that, like it's always the case with law, before applying the law the specific case and context would be taken into account. We have laws against murder too, it's not a mutant exclusive, but there are exceptions, mitigating circumstances and so on, it's not black and white.

  6. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterParked View Post
    Well, they are basically prisoner in the Vault, it's not like they can do recognition and leave, and the Vault technology means they could be spotted sooner than later and not realising until it's too late. So they go the other way around, and it's actually strategical: eliminate the threat first, investigate later. I think that's what would happen in real life with this kind of mission honestly.
    If you mean eliminate the threat and harness their technology for say improved genetic engineering or harnessing their time dilation or acceleration, assuming that they do it better than Tempus,then yeah but if threat is eradicated, then no need to investigate, if you mean scuttle the vault so that it doesn't get into orchis hands yeah sure.I think Xavier should have articulated better or writers should have written a much better plot.If you use the Supernovas template have Synch and Darwin collect info, camouflage, bio hack, maybe Synch could copy shapeshifting ability and even eavesdrop on CoV conversations, but then have Laura be the brawler destroying drones trying to scope them out and she gets captured and tested by the CoV and so Darwin and Synch have to break her out or kill her not to reveal their mission just like Sangre and co tried to murk Sabertooth.I mean they are spending what 500+years there surely you could split the time of their adventure into bits and tell how weary and battle hardened they've become .It would be like telling the Moira life 9 tale in a different way .From there it would be a completely logical and high stakes face off to lead into the final escape . As it stands the writers have no idea how to write interesting dangerous missions, not with the template prepared for them by Supernovas. Which is sad , I'll hold judgement till the conclusion but I already see huge missed opportunities

    Quote Originally Posted by Hulkout42 View Post
    These are just my thoughts, i do not speak for anyone else but myself.

    I agree, the CotV need to be stopped, they want the world and will take it by force. That is their intent and need to be stopped before they have the numbers to enact such an action. They are no better than Knull, the Cotati, the people under the command of the Peacock dude etc.

    But that's not my issue with what i read, my problems with this is that they are sent to gather info for any future conflicts and to me that means stealth and tactical planning in an unknown environment with an unknown enemy and i didn't see that.

    What I saw then getting on an elevator all wily nilly without thinking "Hey maybe there's a sensor here?" and then waiting for the enemy with no explanation on how they knew they were spotted.
    People argue that the AI and the city would have detected them regardless, i can abide by that logic but the problem is that it didn't detect them until they got on the damn elevator. And maybe i am wrong but i feel they could have avoided that all together because Darwin would have sprouted wings or levitated and Synch could have just duplicated it and both carried Laura down and they avoid the Elevator and we get a few more panels where they get to investigate the city before they would have been inevitably caught because they were always going to get caught because that's what happens when on a suicide mission.

    Then we move to after the AI alerts them to the intrusion, it doesn't sound a citywide alert, or they don't show it, that gives away its awareness of the X-men's presence and therefore they have no reason to believe they were caught but still they get off the elevator and just wait for the Children to come to them because they know they were spotted? Does nobody else find this both confusing and somewhat stupid but me? Now if the next time we see them they give an explanation then cool, i take back all the bad things i said and thought, if they don't they i will be even more pissed.

    That's my problem with what i read, it's not that i don't agree with the thought that they need to stop them by any means or that there will be morally questionable actions taken to achieve this, its the lack of well thought out actions.

    Laura given her past and training should know all this but instead i see her acting like an idiot just like Logan, which frankly was another thing that ticked me off, i don't care if in the process of defending herself and her team she off's some of them because that's how far she will go to defend someone if it needs to go there, i just don't want her to act like Logan and be an idiot.
    Well said, the truth right here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolverine12 View Post
    Not everything is destroyed. There’s gonna be an active terminal somewhere that the team can log into, that’s how these stories usually play out. Or you could be right and the mission is just a complete failure and a colossal waste of time for all parties involved.








    Programmed to kill everyone and everything. Not only was negotiating not an option, the children were going to kill the X-Men. If you want to argue the ethics of the X-Men infiltrating the children’s home that’s one thing but you’re giving the children a free pass from any responsibility for their actions, you should be upset at the city for programming them, not the X-Men for defending themselves.

    I get it, you really want the X-Men to be the bad guys. You do you, enjoy the books how you want but I won’t debate in circles like this anymore. I’ve pointed out what I think the flaws in your logic are. If you want to respond with something new and not repeat yourself let’s talk.
    No the children are not programmed, Luz is a CoV and she was very humanlike even attracted to Indra, I just accept that most or 95% of CoV are supremacists who are so at a species not just a race level.I don't mind that because we need absolutely uncompromising villains, in the X-Men world those are hard to come by and the CoV are my fave.My issue is not with X-Men bearing their fangs here, it's just that they couldn't follow the basic tenet of war that you should first learn your enemy or the 'lay of the land' as it were before you go to war .Simple as

  7. #247
    Hi, Sage. nandes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hulkout42 View Post
    What I saw then getting on an elevator all wily nilly without thinking "Hey maybe there's a sensor here?" and then waiting for the enemy with no explanation on how they knew they were spotted.
    People argue that the AI and the city would have detected them regardless, i can abide by that logic but the problem is that it didn't detect them until they got on the damn elevator. And maybe i am wrong but i feel they could have avoided that all together because Darwin would have sprouted wings or levitated and Synch could have just duplicated it and both carried Laura down and they avoid the Elevator and we get a few more panels where they get to investigate the city before they would have been inevitably caught because they were always going to get caught because that's what happens when on a suicide mission.

    Then we move to after the AI alerts them to the intrusion, it doesn't sound a citywide alert, or they don't show it, that gives away its awareness of the X-men's presence and therefore they have no reason to believe they were caught but still they get off the elevator and just wait for the Children to come to them because they know they were spotted? Does nobody else find this both confusing and somewhat stupid but me? Now if the next time we see them they give an explanation then cool, i take back all the bad things i said and thought, if they don't they i will be even more pissed.
    Well that's not what happened, either. They were detected at the start, in X-Men 5, it had nothing to do with the elevator



    Quote Originally Posted by Hulkout42 View Post
    Yes she built it, but did she have the bloodlust she has now before or after the X-men attacked? Was she planning on building NIMROD before or after her husband got killed in an attempt to stop them? My issue here isn't what she did or what is going to do, my issue here is you don't wound the snake so it can strike again, you cut its head off. If you are going to show them on a morally ambiguous mission then send the gray characters to make sure nothing is left to hurt them and not a team made up a of doogooders and two gray characters. And what if Mother Mold was the mission anyway? I mean Mystique was sent back in case NIMROD did show up and take care of anyone involved IN SECRET by Xavier and Lensherr because they couldn't let anyone one find out they were breaking their no kill law.

    He figured it out after he stole it from them, they are not going to take kindly to that and what comes next is on him.

    The X-men are not hurting innocents but actions are being taken in secret without the rest of them knowing that will come back to haunt all of them and frankly they should because their needs to be consequences.
    The entire reason the mission on ORCHIS happened is because the Mother Mold is constructed to build Nimrods. That's the information Moira learned in life 9.

    In that case, you say "there should be consequences" to the fact the mutants attacked the people who were planning to kill all of them?

    Quote Originally Posted by pkingdom View Post
    Its not bad faith to point out the CotV plan is pretty much the same as several plans made by mutant villains over the years. Nobody is saying the CotV are the good guys here. Problem is that groups like them are a dime a dozen in Marvel, and they haven't done anything to feel like that much bigger a threat than any of those other groups. Yes, one of them inflitrated the X mansion in their debut. That happened all the time. And when other heroes encounter these similar groups, they don't immediately default to murdering them all. And that its Laura, who's backstory is very similar to the kind of thing the CotV are put through, is slaughtering them with no comment, just rubs salt in the wound.
    They didn't simply infiltrate the mansion. They arrived there to eradicate mutantkind after M-Day



    So you say in the situation presented in this issue, where Darwin, Laura and Synch had to attack or be killed, they simply should've let themselves be killed?
    Last edited by nandes; 02-26-2021 at 06:14 AM.

  8. #248
    Praying Member zvrk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jwyatt View Post
    Has it been explained why Serafina was being held in the Orchis facility in X-Men #5?
    It seems Orhis offers the very best anti-aging full power posthuman cooking treatment there is, outside of the City.
    But those meddling X-Men want to ruin all endeavors Orchis dips in!

  9. #249

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    I thought this issue was a pretty cool reason to spend 3 bucks.

    Also, regarding people being annoyed about the vault crew being lethal - the children blew up their elevator !

  10. #250
    The King Fears NO ONE! Triniking1234's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hulkout42 View Post
    They could have not taken the damn elevator in the first place, they had Darwin who could have evolved some flight capability that the other guy could have duplicated and carried them down.

    And why would you wait for people to come to the elevator instead of moving around the city as soon as you enter it? That made no sense. As soon as they got off they should have gone stealth mode but instead they wait there? For what exactly? They had no way of knowing if they got caught or not because there was no indication from the Children signaling for intruders, we only know they got caught because the AI knew and said so but didn't sound a citywide alert and instead sends a small group.

    I am aware this isn't over yet because we know one of them gave a report, but the thing is three people aren't enough to lay siege to a city with an unknown number of enemy combatants or what their powers are, so lets assume they somehow they get out or at least Synch got out, the Children would still be aware of them and their infiltration so naturally they either up security, they get more people, move locations, any number of things that make any intel they get right now utterly useless except that the Children now know the mutants are searching for them and will be ready for the X-men.
    Good grief. This takes place right after X-Men #5 so the trio are using Wolverine's senses to track Serafina. Those senses told them she went down the elevator so they went down the elevator. The book already shows that both Darwin and Laura can track the CotV so that's how they dodge the ambush at the bottom of the shaft.

    We don't know the layout of the City but most likely Serafina's group was closer and the City thought they would be enough.

    I don't know where you got the idea this was a siege. This is obviously an espionage mission if you remember issue #5. You don't send a large group of soldiers on espionage missions.
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  11. #251
    Astonishing Member Thievery's Avatar
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    Forgive me if this has already been brought up already. I have not been able to go back and read through this thread thoroughly.

    Don't Laura, Synch, and Darwin have to kill to make sure that they get out of the Vault.

    Cerebro can't penetrate the Vault. That means that if the three of them die in the Vault the X-Men won't know if they are alive or dead, and they wont be able to be resurrected do to the resurrection protocols. And if they escape the Vault, and die right afterwards, there still won't time to be able to have a copy of their memories backed up. Their mission will have been for nothing.
    EDIT: That means that if they were to die, any information that they were to gather would die with them.

    So, I think that Laura, Synch, and Darwin have to be willing to kill the completely evil Children of the Vault. There would be no point in going if they weren't willing to kill them.
    Last edited by Thievery; 02-26-2021 at 07:03 AM.

  12. #252
    X-Cultist nx01a's Avatar
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    You also send actual recon and stealth people on recon and Stealth missions. Again... Mutants like ForgetMeNot and Cipher and a teleporter should have gone in to map out the place and gauge the threat level, and then gtfo. The minute direct conflict happens, the chances of escaping with meaningful and useful info decreases.
    Quote Originally Posted by The General, JLA #38
    'Why?' Just to see the disappointment on your corn-fed, gee-whiz face, Superman. And because a great dark voice on the edge of nothing spoke to me and said you all had to die. There is no 'Why?'

  13. #253
    Astonishing Member Hulkout42's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nandes View Post
    Well that's not what happened, either. They were detected at the start, in X-Men 5, it had nothing to do with the elevator





    The entire reason the mission on ORCHIS happened is because the Mother Mold is constructed to build Nimrods. That's the information Moira learned in life 9.

    In that case, you say "there should be consequences" to the fact the mutants attacked the people who were planning to kill all of them?



    They didn't simply infiltrate the mansion. They arrived there to eradicate mutantkind after M-Day



    So you say in the situation presented in this issue, where Darwin, Laura and Synch had to attack or be killed, they simply should've let themselves be killed?
    Ok, here's my rebuttal does the machine say this vocally and they hear it? Or is Synch saying Oh **** because of what they see before them? If its the later than it is worse because in this issue they should be on full alert as soon as they cross over, but they aren't and they shouldn't have Synch say they can get by undetected because they were detected then.

    Mother Mold was created to build Master Molds, NIMROD was going to be the next step down line, maybe months maybe years we don't know...and it still happened anyway because they didn't stop the it creation that mission was a failure, if anything their attack sped it up, they gave that woman the motivation to build him much sooner. And so far the only people who know this are Xavier, Lensherr, Raven and Moira, my biggest issue there wasn't the attack itself but rather they left the station and people alive to make this happen. Send in Sabertooth, Domino, Cable, Daken, Kwannon anyone who doesn't have a moral issue to destroying that place not Summers and Grey and Wagner who won't cross the line and to do what needs to be done to stop NIMROD from coming to fruition.

  14. #254
    Braddock Isle JB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolverine12 View Post
    Can you hide if the actual City can see you though? Like I said before the stories not done and the warning bells were set off immediately. That doesn't even address the fact that the the trio had no idea of the layout of the city and what they would encounter blindly running through it. They chose to fight and eliminate an immediate threat. Is it nice, no, is it pragmatic and a solid solution to an immediate problem, I'd say yes. Will it get them into more trouble than if they had chosen to hide? We'll find out next issue I suppose.
    Yup. They walked in and got tagged. The mission was stealth but that went out the window the moment they walked in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thievery View Post
    Forgive me if this has already been brought up already. I have not been able to go back and read through this thread thoroughly.

    Don't Laura, Synch, and Darwin have to kill to make sure that they get out of the Vault.

    Cerebro can't penetrate the Vault. That means that if the three of them die in the Vault the X-Men won't know if they are alive or dead, and they wont be able to be resurrected do to the resurrection protocols. And if they escape the Vault, and die right afterwards, there still won't time to be able to have a copy of their memories backed up. Their mission will have been for nothing.

    So, I think that Laura, Synch, and Darwin have to be willing to kill the completely evil Children of the Vault. There would be no point in going if they weren't willing to kill them.
    Agreed.
    Last edited by JB; 02-26-2021 at 07:03 AM.
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  15. #255
    Astonishing Member Thievery's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jbenito View Post
    Yup. They walked in and got tagged. The mission was stealth but that went out the window the moment they walked in.



    Agreed.
    Yes, after reading through this thread more, I have seen the point that stealth went out the window the moment that the city and the Children knew that they were there. At that point it is survival by any means for the scout team. Plus, the three of them had practically no idea as to what the city's lay out was. They also didn't know just how much technology that the Children had, and how much of threat that the Children of the Vault currently were. That was pretty much what the entire purpose of their mission was.

    And thank you for agreeing with me. Great minds think alike and all of that.

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