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  1. #16
    Ultimate Member MindofShadow's Avatar
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    8 months later more set up

    5 years later, more insulting allegories, this time fake reparations

    Cant wait til tnc is gone. 2 more months
    Black Panther Appreciation Blog: http://blackpanthermarvel.blogspot.com/

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  2. #17
    Fantastic Member Shadey's Avatar
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    This shitty run can't end any sooner.

  3. #18
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    Honestly, I hate not finishing up a collection/story. When I get these last few issues of this run, I will shelve them and never both with Coates run ever again.

  4. #19
    Everything Fades Away... butterflykyss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redjack View Post
    Wow. this is a lot.

    okay.

    1) In a monarchy 100% of the people who are not the king and queen are subordinate to the king and queen. In a patriarchal monarchy the queen is subordinate to the king. In a matriarchal monarchy the king is subordinate to the queen.

    That includes all princes, princesses, counts, dukes, duchesses, earls, knights, generals, captains, town sheriffs, council members, regular citizens, etc. It even includes the clergy. Wars have been fought over this. It is part of the reason we even have the Church of England.

    Shuri is not co-ruler. She is one of T'Challa's subjects. As a royal she's WAY high up the food chain, meaning she can argue more, be a lot less formal when talking to her brother, even tell him he's an idiot if she thinks he's being stupid about something but, end of the day, what the King says goes. Or, the Queen, if positions were reversed. Currently, they are not reversed so what T'Challa says goes. The end.

    2) I paid zero attention to depictions of Shuri and Okoye in the Coates run or the depiction of Storm in the Coates run.

    I stopped reading the Coates run after the first scene of the rape camps so I have no direct knowledge or opinion about it, good or bad. It didn't influence me one way or the other.

    3) I didn't write KiB to "elevate" T'Challa or anyone. Or to downgrade anyone. I wrote the characters as I understand them and as I see them. If MARVEL Editorial had any disagreement with that portrayal they would have said so. They didn't so we can assume everybody was fine with it.

    4) Storm in KiB:BP was depicted as she was depicted in the first two issues of the main KiB miniseries. No more. No less.

    5) The Black Panther is about the Black Panther. Whether that Black Panther is T'Challa, Shuri, T'Chaka or any of the others. It's not about Storm or N'Jadaka or Okoye or any of those others. They are secondary, support characters, ONLY present to help tell the Black Panther's story.

    1. I have never personally read any BP story before KiB where Shuri interacted with Tchalla as such going back to Hudlin. You as a writer most certainly can change these interactions but as a reader im simply making an observation to the aforementioned point.

    2. Understood, but as as said I've read many titles with Shuri and Tchalla by multiple writers including hudlin and this is the first time I've seen her behave as a subject who is supposed to obey Tchalla.

    3. I don't believe I said that you ever wrote it to elevate anyone but I think the same logic applied to KiB should be applied to Coates for those who had issue with the title.

    4. I never said otherwise regarding Storm depiction.

    5. I don't think I ever said BP should be about Storm, Njadaka or Okoye. Where did I say any of that?
    ALL HAIL THE HADARI YAO, THE OMEGA'S OMEGA!!!! NOW AGAIN THE ONE TRUE AND ONLY GODDESS OF THE X-MEN AS CLAREMONT INTENDED!!!!!

  5. #20
    Everything Fades Away... butterflykyss's Avatar
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    ALL HAIL THE HADARI YAO, THE OMEGA'S OMEGA!!!! NOW AGAIN THE ONE TRUE AND ONLY GODDESS OF THE X-MEN AS CLAREMONT INTENDED!!!!!

  6. #21
    Astonishing Member Redjack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by butterflykyss View Post
    1. I have never personally read any BP story before KiB where Shuri interacted with Tchalla as such going back to Hudlin. You as a writer most certainly can change these interactions but as a reader im simply making an observation to the aforementioned point.

    2. Understood, but as as said I've read many titles with Shuri and Tchalla by multiple writers including hudlin and this is the first time I've seen her behave as a subject who is supposed to obey Tchalla.
    I can't speak to how other writers have shown this relationship.

    Wakanda isn't a democracy. The Black Panther is its sole and absolute ruler. Every Wakandan is his subject and must obey his commands. That's how monarchies work.

    All i can say is, this issue was a discreet battle situation. I'm not sure how else the various players SHOULD have behaved other than how they did.

    And I spent two years defining Shuri in Black Panther's Quest. That's just as legit a version of the character as anyone else's. The KiB version was somewhere between the BPQ version and the Hudlin version.

  7. #22
    Extraordinary Member Cville's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redjack View Post
    I can't speak to how other writers have shown this relationship.

    Wakanda isn't a democracy. The Black Panther is its sole and absolute ruler. Every Wakandan is his subject and must obey his commands. That's how monarchies work.

    All i can say is, this issue was a discreet battle situation. I'm not sure how else the various players SHOULD have behaved other than how they did.

    And I spent two years defining Shuri in Black Panther's Quest. That's just as legit a version of the character as anyone else's. The KiB version was somewhere between the BPQ version and the Hudlin version.
    Did editorial officially change it back? Wakanda is "supposed" to be a democracy now. Tchallas' King title is ceremonial.

  8. #23
    Everything Fades Away... butterflykyss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redjack View Post
    I can't speak to how other writers have shown this relationship.

    Wakanda isn't a democracy. The Black Panther is its sole and absolute ruler. Every Wakandan is his subject and must obey his commands. That's how monarchies work.

    All i can say is, this issue was a discreet battle situation. I'm not sure how else the various players SHOULD have behaved other than how they did.

    And I spent two years defining Shuri in Black Panther's Quest. That's just as legit a version of the character as anyone else's. The KiB version was somewhere between the BPQ version and the Hudlin version.
    Technically its more a democratic state with T'Challa being a figurehead with more powers than a traditional one. This was explained during the "no one man" arc. However, even with that canon is a continuation of pre-established stories meant and made to build upon the other. I do not think it is unfair as a reader to point out details inconsistent with established canon despite real-world definitions. I understand how monarchies work but that is a separate point I was making when highlighting the interactions between Tchalla and Shuri.

    And though BPQ shuri is non-canon i understand the point you are making.




    Quote Originally Posted by Cville View Post
    Did editorial officially change it back? Wakanda is "supposed" to be a democracy now. Tchallas' King title is ceremonial.

    he has expressed he stopped reading the bp book after the rape camps so im not sure he is aware of this detail.
    ALL HAIL THE HADARI YAO, THE OMEGA'S OMEGA!!!! NOW AGAIN THE ONE TRUE AND ONLY GODDESS OF THE X-MEN AS CLAREMONT INTENDED!!!!!

  9. #24
    The Professional Marvell2100's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cville View Post
    Did editorial officially change it back? Wakanda is "supposed" to be a democracy now. Tchallas' King title is ceremonial.
    Wakanda isn't even a democracy in the book where Coates made it a democracy.

    I have yet to see Senator W'Kabi, Congresswoman O'Gana or Gov Zuri.

  10. #25
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    I've had enough wine to figure out how to say this and and i'm not sorry but this issue was trash. So you held off on this issue for months and then had an artist with a completely different style fill in on certain pages connected to the main story and never show those in the preview pages so people could really see the product. It wouldn't be so bad if the art was at least consistent because i was wasn't getting it for the story.

    How do you have a book with every bad ass black hero ever and it end up this boring. It ends up in self regret, we can do better, we been holding people down, during the month of black history that they obviously waited for to cash in on. No i'm not going to feel bad that this was just a bad story. I'm not going to feel bad that i don't want to have to fill in the blanks of a five year old story for a writer that is getting paid to write. I am am over reading what feels like the therapy sessions of kanye west dressed up as Black Panther. Coates just needs to go. I'm just done yo.
    Don't let anyone else hold the candle that lights the way to your future because only you can sustain the flame.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by butterflykyss View Post
    Technically its more a democratic state with T'Challa being a figurehead with more powers than a traditional one. This was explained during the "no one man" arc. However, even with that canon is a continuation of pre-established stories meant and made to build upon the other. I do not think it is unfair as a reader to point out details inconsistent with established canon despite real-world definitions. I understand how monarchies work but that is a separate point I was making when highlighting the interactions between Tchalla and Shuri.

    And though BPQ shuri is non-canon i understand the point you are making.







    he has expressed he stopped reading the bp book after the rape camps so im not sure he is aware of this detail.
    In our mind Coates BP isn't Canon it's one big a$$ nightmare lol

  12. #27
    Everything Fades Away... butterflykyss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dariel81 View Post
    In our mind Coates BP isn't Canon it's one big a$$ nightmare lol
    oh im certain lolol.
    ALL HAIL THE HADARI YAO, THE OMEGA'S OMEGA!!!! NOW AGAIN THE ONE TRUE AND ONLY GODDESS OF THE X-MEN AS CLAREMONT INTENDED!!!!!

  13. #28
    Astonishing Member Redjack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by butterflykyss View Post
    he has expressed he stopped reading the bp book after the rape camps so im not sure he is aware of this detail.
    nope. i wasn't aware of that. I doubt it would have changed more than a line or two in the book if i had known.

    (also, even in England, I'm pretty sure nobody's supposed to put hands on the Queen.)

    and, again, if it was something editorial felt i needed to know or be aware of, they would have made it clear.

    i think it's fine for this moment. and need not reflect one way or the other on the ongoing book.

  14. #29
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    I would suggest that prolonged questioning of your acknowledged leaders orders in the middle of a battle is not wise. Especially one where it appears your side is losing. In a situation where every moment counts, a good soldier like Okoye and an intelligent leader, as well, like Shuri would follow orders.
    Reality is for those who are afraid of science fiction.

  15. #30
    Everything Fades Away... butterflykyss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redjack View Post
    nope. i wasn't aware of that. I doubt it would have changed more than a line or two in the book if i had known.

    (also, even in England, I'm pretty sure nobody's supposed to put hands on the Queen.)

    and, again, if it was something editorial felt i needed to know or be aware of, they would have made it clear.

    i think it's fine for this moment. and need not reflect one way or the other on the ongoing book.
    I cant speak to what marvel does internally you have a way better sense of that obviously but editorial at marvel has been infamous for missing lots of details in their stories across and within franchises.
    ALL HAIL THE HADARI YAO, THE OMEGA'S OMEGA!!!! NOW AGAIN THE ONE TRUE AND ONLY GODDESS OF THE X-MEN AS CLAREMONT INTENDED!!!!!

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