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  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Well that's part of the whole baggage of the movie's dubious class politics. It bothers me that the producers spread this idea that Peter couldn't build the Spider-Man suit which he did in the comics, because apparently poor people can't stitch or maybe they think Peter knowing needlework means he's a girl or something, and that it's more acceptable for a rich businessman with a 3D printer to make it.
    A lot of people don't seem to expect someone of Peter's resources would be able to come up with a suit that looks as good as the normal Spider-Man suit.
    Nolan's last Batman movie reused the suit from the second one, didn't affect or hurt its merchandising sales one bit.
    I don't think Nolan's Batman films were as heavy on the merchandise as the MCU films are.
    The comparison isn't to Tony Stark in the Avengers, it's to Tony Stark in his solo movies where he struggled against Ivan Vanko (needing Rhodey to beat him up), and against Killian (where he basically destroyed all his suits to fight him and ultimately Pepper was the one who finished him). Tony Stark individually isn't below the paygrade of a gang of sophisticated thieves who repurpose and rewire Chitaturi tech to successfully rob the US Government for more than a half-decade without the Avengers and Shield noticing that their inventory is getting thin.
    Vanko was Tony's second Supervillain that went directly after him and got his own legion of robots at his command by the end of the movie. Killian kidnapped the President with his army of heat-spewing monsters. On-paper I feel like they're a bit of a bigger deal than what Toomes' crew would look like at first glance.

    Although it did always kind of irk me how Tony could never finish a fight in his own movie without help.
    As for the Avengers, at the time of Homecoming, the Avengers is basically Tony, Rhodey, Vision (and given he's seeing Wanda secretly, he's not reliable). The big heavy hitters -- Hulk, Thor -- are off-planet. Cap, Natasha, Falcon, Ant-Man have their own splinter-Avengers group. Black Panther is aligned with Cap. So we aren't talking about a full roster of Avengers, basically just three dudes in a compound.
    I mean, it's not a question of the current membership at the time of the movie, just going off what we have seen The Avengers deal with in the films they're either hunting down international terrorists or mercenaries or international disasters. With the limited roster Tony is probably even more busy than what we see in the film.

    And, again, he still ended up getting involved with what Peter was dealing with.
    Anyway you look at this, Tony's actions and attitude makes no sense.
    You can not like his reaction, but I think it makes sense.

  2. #182
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    A lot of people don't seem to expect someone of Peter's resources would be able to come up with a suit that looks as good as the normal Spider-Man suit.
    The normal Spider-Man suit was never a state-of-the-art thing it was always described in comics as overgrown pajamas or onesies and so on. It had no real gadgets or anything, and Peter was constantly shown sewing and fixing it up in many issues. And you know given motivation and time, and a guy with superhuman reflexes (i.e. steady arms, concentration, high stamina, and speed) it's not hard to accept that someone of Peter's skills to be very capable at needlework. Besides Peter's field is chemical engineering and designing the web fluid, in other words he would know a great deal about fabrics because stuff like Kevlar, Spandex was developed by chemical engineers who mixed the right formulas in lab to create the chemical reaction that invented that texture and which they then converted into fabrics that could be spun into textiles. So he would know a great deal about tailoring.

    Even aside from that, plenty of people learn how to sew and do needlework to fix their clothes because it costs stuff to go to a tailor. IN the age of YouTube you have so many videos to look up to DIY what you need. Poor people across history have always been super-resourceful in terms of knowing how to maintain and repair stuff on their own when they can't call the handyman or tailor or whoever to fix their stuff. It's ridiculous that expecting a billionaire daddy to bail out someone and hand him stuff is more believable than Peter doing stuff on his own. So thorough and extreme has the infantilization of Spider-Man the character been extended.

    Although it did always kind of irk me how Tony could never finish a fight in his own movie without help.
    That's exactly what I am talking about. In his own movies Tony never defeated his individual supervillains by himself, in his team movies he never beat up anyone by himself, and yet we need to take his "pay grade" claims on face value.

    You can not like his reaction, but I think it makes sense.
    Tony saying "beneath my pay grade" makes sense for a character of his ego and short-sightedness. The movie taking his side and acceding him to be right is what I have issue with.

  3. #183
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    Being against a corporation is not inherently a sign of virtue. Otherwise the morons whining about "cancel culture" after Gina Carano got fired by Disney for her anti-Semitic, transphobic and anti-mask comments would be in the right.

    Toomes and Beck's actions are judged on a black and white scale because that is the only way you can judge knowingly and callously killing people who have done nothing wrong to you in order to spite a guy you perceived as doing you wrong (and in Beck's case, is already dead).

  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post


    I can't speak for Jack, but I want to address this because I see it pop up everywhere: the notion that bringing up the bad things in Tony's ledger means that someone inherently dislikes or is biased towards Iron Man.
    When that person (not you, just to be clear) is comparing Tony to Joseph Stalin, it's hard for me to buy them as being anywhere near objective.

  5. #185
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Being against a corporation is not inherently a sign of virtue.
    Being against a corporation whose owner's actions have led to you having your legal contract voided by Uncle Sam without compensation or having your "life's work" (to use Beck's phrase) rebranded without your consent or input, as well as then being taken away from you while you get fired...are not only valid reasons, they are in fact a lot more than valid. Revolutions and strikes have been sparked for less.

    Otherwise the morons whining about "cancel culture" after Gina Carano got fired by Disney for her anti-Semitic, transphobic and anti-mask comments would be in the right.
    False equivocation 101.

    Toomes and Beck's actions are judged on a black and white scale because that is the only way you can judge knowingly and callously killing people who have done nothing wrong to you in order to spite a guy you perceived as doing you wrong (and in Beck's case, is already dead).
    If the point of the film was to make Toomes and Beck simple bad guys surely it could be done and has been done without any special psychological or socioeconomic reasons which touches on real issues. You could also tie their grievances to characters who aren't superheroes like Tony who need to be seen as exalted figures for institutional reasons.

    Again, a dude in a vulture suit or a fishbowl suit going around doing crimes doesn't happen in real life, but being swindled out of your life's work by corporations happens all the time, heck is probably happening as we type and read in some part of the world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    When that person (not you, just to be clear) is comparing Tony to Joseph Stalin, it's hard for me to buy them as being anywhere near objective.
    I also compared Tony to Churchill and FDR, but somehow the guy who oversaw the Bengal Famine and the Japanese Internments isn't as damning, it seems.

  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I think it's ridiculous that Peter has gone through six suits that he can practically make a Hall of Armor out of, although that's more a consequence of the merchandising need of Superheroes.
    I mean, this only further proves my point about how fake and manufactured for toys this Spider-Man is. There is no logical reason for a working-class teen to have that many suits.

    I have my PS4 Spider-Man open right now. About half of the suits here belong to other people (like Scarlet Spider or Spider-Man 2099), or to Elseworld versions of Peter (like Noir), or are just skins (like the Raimi suit or the vintage suit). The other half are suits that he wore in very circumstantial cases (Bagman, Secret War, etc.) and not something that would make sense to wear consistently or that he can store in his closet.

    I guess him having the Iron Spider suit on the side technically makes sense since he is Tony's sidekick, but that and his Civil War suit are the only ones that make sense for him to have.
    Last edited by Kaitou D. Kid; 03-01-2021 at 08:53 PM.

  7. #187
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The normal Spider-Man suit was never a state-of-the-art thing it was always described in comics as overgrown pajamas or onesies and so on. It had no real gadgets or anything, and Peter was constantly shown sewing and fixing it up in many issues. And you know given motivation and time, and a guy with superhuman reflexes (i.e. steady arms, concentration, high stamina, and speed) it's not hard to accept that someone of Peter's skills to be very capable at needlework. Besides Peter's field is chemical engineering and designing the web fluid, in other words he would know a great deal about fabrics because stuff like Kevlar, Spandex was developed by chemical engineers who mixed the right formulas in lab to create the chemical reaction that invented that texture and which they then converted into fabrics that could be spun into textiles. So he would know a great deal about tailoring.

    Even aside from that, plenty of people learn how to sew and do needlework to fix their clothes because it costs stuff to go to a tailor. IN the age of YouTube you have so many videos to look up to DIY what you need. Poor people across history have always been super-resourceful in terms of knowing how to maintain and repair stuff on their own when they can't call the handyman or tailor or whoever to fix their stuff. It's ridiculous that expecting a billionaire daddy to bail out someone and hand him stuff is more believable than Peter doing stuff on his own. So thorough and extreme has the infantilization of Spider-Man the character been extended.
    Just like the design work and overall polish is what people seem skeptical of.

    Even Ultimate had the base design come from the wrestling corporation, Peter just added the webbing.

    I feel like self-made heroes are becoming rarer and rarer these days.
    That's exactly what I am talking about. In his own movies Tony never defeated his individual supervillains by himself, in his team movies he never beat up anyone by himself, and yet we need to take his "pay grade" claims on face value.
    Granted, he came up with the means of beating two out of three and was still personally involved so...and that was also Tony very early into his career as Iron Man whereas then he was talking as leader of The Avengers and as a much more experienced Superhero who has dealt with a lot more threats by then.
    Tony saying "beneath my pay grade" makes sense for a character of his ego and short-sightedness. The movie taking his side and acceding him to be right is what I have issue with.
    It didn't in that respect, otherwise there was no point to Peter stopping Toomes on his own.
    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Being against a corporation whose owner's actions have led to you having your legal contract voided by Uncle Sam without compensation or having your "life's work" (to use Beck's phrase) rebranded without your consent or input, as well as then being taken away from you while you get fired...are not only valid reasons, they are in fact a lot more than valid. Revolutions and strikes have been sparked for less.
    We're talking about Beck here, though. The man's arrogant to a fault and has a silver tongue.
    If the point of the film was to make Toomes and Beck simple bad guys surely it could be done and has been done without any special psychological or socioeconomic reasons which touches on real issues. You could also tie their grievances to characters who aren't superheroes like Tony who need to be seen as exalted figures for institutional reasons.

    Again, a dude in a vulture suit or a fishbowl suit going around doing crimes doesn't happen in real life, but being swindled out of your life's work by corporations happens all the time, heck is probably happening as we type and read in some part of the world.
    I feel like you can give them motivations audiences can latch onto without fully justifying their crimes or claiming Tony is solely responsible for them becoming Supervillains.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    I mean, this only further proves my point about how fake and manufactured for toys this Spider-Man is. There is no logical reason for a working-class teen to have that many suits.

    I have my PS4 Spider-Man open right now. About half of the suits here belong to other people (like Scarlet Spider or Spider-Man 2099), or to Elseworld versions of Peter (like Noir), or are just skins (like the Raimi suit or the vintage suit). The other half are suits that he wore in very circumstantial cases (Bagman, Secret War, etc.) and not something that would make sense to wear consistently or that he can store in his closet.

    I guess him having the Iron Spider suit on the side technically makes sense since he is Tony's sidekick, but that and his Civil War suit are the only ones that make sense for him to have.
    I mean, it's just the nature of the beast for most Superheroes these days even if it means just minor suit alterations like we got with Cap or some of the other Avengers (I mean, Black Widow's had like 6-8 different costumes).

    At least the FFH suit was thematically meant to be "his" suit since Tony didn't make it like the CW suit, even if he still had to use Stark resources to make it.

  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    A lot of people don't seem to expect someone of Peter's resources would be able to come up with a suit that looks as good as the normal Spider-Man suit.
    Funny thing is that the Spider-Man suit itself wasn’t all that impressive before. I could totally buy that Peter could McGuyver a basic Spider-Man suit, even MORESO since superheroes and villains exist in the universe. Heck I’ve seen people make impressive cosplay stuff on a budget with probably less than Peter has got. However NOW it’s hard to believe that someone on Peter’s income can make a Stark brand Spider-Man suit with all of those bells and whistles that come with it. ABSOLUTELY not.

  9. #189
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Just like the design work and overall polish is what people seem skeptical of.
    If you look at the original Ditko costume, the only elaborate design would be the Spider-Logo on his chest. The one on the back is fairly crude (and feels a tad childish). Everything else is fairly simple design, primary color scheme, face covering mask and so on. The fairly detailed silhouette of a black spider on the chest is about the most intricate needlework demanded on Peter's part. In the Raimi movies, the Spider at the back is now even more elaborate (and also scary looking than the original oval with struts jutting out), so that's a more artistic flourish for Tobey!Peter. But again technically it's not beyond his means at all.

    Tobey's Spider-Man suit looked good on-screen because of the lighting and cinematography which really made the primary colors shine, but it's definitely a lot less plush looking than the Batsuits of the Burton and Schumacher movies, or the Leather ensemble of the X-Men in the Fox movies, to refer to movies closer to its time.

    I feel like self-made heroes are becoming rarer and rarer these days.
    Except for Tony in his cave with his box-of-scraps.

    Somehow it's acceptable that a billionaire playboy who d--ked around for 40 years and basically desked his way through his job, is somehow going to master shop class in a cave in Afghanistan while a kid who as the movie tells us dumpster-dived for his stuff, and DIY and does stuff on his own, can't create his own suit.

    At least with Batman, we get a detailed explanation that the rich dude who knows everything hit the books, the gym, everything hard for all his teenage and early adolescent years. But if Tony was simply brilliant scientist and party playboy socialite, I don't buy that he'd somehow know the inside of a forge and mine.

    Tell me again how this isn't about class and how peasants can't create stuff on their own and possibly even make something great.
    Last edited by Revolutionary_Jack; 03-01-2021 at 09:34 PM.

  10. #190
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    Peter is also extremely lucky that Tony designed a suit that conveniently looks so optimistic and fits his personality so well. Good thing Weapons Industrialist Tony Stark found his inner Steve Ditko and managed to think of something so simple and quirky.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I mean, it's just the nature of the beast for most Superheroes these days even if it means just minor suit alterations like we got with Cap or some of the other Avengers (I mean, Black Widow's had like 6-8 different costumes).
    Even then, five suits in two films? That seems a bit excessive. He already has half the amount of suits that Cap got over the course of ten years.

    At least the FFH suit was thematically meant to be "his" suit since Tony didn't make it like the CW suit, even if he still had to use Stark resources to make it.
    Yep, but as Mistah K88 mentioned, it wasn't that impressive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Tell me again how this isn't about class and how peasants can't create stuff on their own and possibly even make something great.
    To give credit where credit is due, though, MCU Spider-Man is at least the first live-action version to fully invent his webbing with no outside help or previous material already existing. That is part of why Tony was so impressed when he met him.
    Last edited by Kaitou D. Kid; 03-01-2021 at 10:41 PM.

  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Being against a corporation whose owner's actions have led to you having your legal contract voided by Uncle Sam without compensation or having your "life's work" (to use Beck's phrase) rebranded without your consent or input, as well as then being taken away from you while you get fired...are not only valid reasons, they are in fact a lot more than valid. Revolutions and strikes have been sparked for less.
    Revolutions and strikes are not always legitimate and Beck and Toomes are neither revolutionairies nor going on a strike. They are criminals killing and endangering numerous people including teenagers who have done nothing wrong to them.



    False equivocation 101.
    Well if this ain't the pot calling the kettle black.



    Again, a dude in a vulture suit or a fishbowl suit going around doing crimes doesn't happen in real life, but being swindled out of your life's work by corporations happens all the time, heck is probably happening as we type and read in some part of the world.
    Vulture and Mysterio wearing weird costumes is not what they are being treated as villains. People selling weapons on the streets and trying to murder innocent people because of their own petty grudges also happens. The fantastical means by which Toomes and Beck commit their crimes does not erase the crimes in question. And it's already been pointed out that Tony didn't actually steal credit from Beck.



    I also compared Tony to Churchill and FDR, but somehow the guy who oversaw the Bengal Famine and the Japanese Internments isn't as damning, it seems.
    What was that about false equivalencies again?

  12. #192
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Vulture and Mysterio wearing weird costumes is not what they are being treated as villains.
    In the most essential senses, yeah they are.

    Vulture and Mysterio before they are anything else are just a bunch of weird costumes. Everything else is added on top of that.

    People selling weapons on the streets...
    "Weapons on the streets" is quite the dog whistle. In America, weapons are sold at Wal-Mart and across the counter. Absolutely legal and protected by members of congress clinging to constitution with their "cold dead hands". The sniper that performed open-air brain surgery on JFK was purchased legally from a Chicago Sports store after all. And again as the movie points out, why is it okay to look past Tony selling arms and weapons to defense clients across the world?

    The fantastical means by which Toomes and Beck commit their crimes does not erase the crimes in question.
    There's an aesthetic distinction between larger-than-life supervillainy and regular real-life crimes.
    -- Green Goblin tossing Gwen off a glider atop a giant bridge.
    -- Dude wearing a crude Goblin face-mask and marching into a building and gunning people down in a rage.

    The former "Goblin killing Gwen" can be mythologized, even joked about, parodied and homaged with several artists doing takes and variations on it, while nobody will do 100 variant covers or art about school shootings. If you did that in real life, people would think you are weird and odd to say the least.

    And it's already been pointed out that Tony didn't actually steal credit from Beck.
    501lbi.jpg
    Last edited by Revolutionary_Jack; 03-02-2021 at 04:51 AM.

  13. #193
    World's Greatest Hero blackspidey2099's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    A lot of people don't seem to expect someone of Peter's resources would be able to come up with a suit that looks as good as the normal Spider-Man suit.
    The people who argue that strike me as especially dumb, considering that they almost always seem to have no issues with Tony himself coming up with the first Iron Man armor in a cave with a box of scraps.
    "Anyone can win a fight when the odds are easy! It's when the going's tough - when there seems to be no chance - that's when it counts!" - Spider-Man

  14. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackspidey2099 View Post
    The people who argue that strike me as especially dumb, considering that they almost always seem to have no issues with Tony himself coming up with the first Iron Man armor in a cave with a box of scraps.
    The first Iron Man armor took months to build, in addition to that the box of scraps were still pieces of highly advanced technology, and despite all that the suit held up for like 20 minutes before falling apart

  15. #195
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jewel Runner View Post
    The first Iron Man armor took months to build, in addition to that the box of scraps were still pieces of highly advanced technology, and despite all that the suit held up for like 20 minutes before falling apart
    Okay, by the same metric, Peter's Spider-Man costume is a simple textile onesie, able to be cobbled together by a resourceful kid who knows where to look for what he needs and Peter has a lot more time and space to make his costume together and he's 15 year old, with superpowers.

    So again why is it unbelievable that a peasant couldn't create his suit but a feudal lord on the skids can create advanced revolutionary tech all the while under stress and malnutrition?

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