Spider-Man 3: No Way Home

[Frontier]

I did feel some satisfaction how many people lost it at seeing Green Goblin in the full suit .

[Webhead]

Dafoe seems like a really cool guy to hang with.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Dafoe seems like a really cool guy to hang with.

Sam Raimi found a way to include Dafoe in all the Spider-Man films, either in hallucinations or in some weird cameo where he's an extra in the background. Raimi did that solely because he wanted an excuse for Dafoe to visit his sets and hang around.

The best thing Spider-Man did was make an actor as unusual and original as him into a household name. Before Dafoe had fallen off the radar, he had done a lot of cool films in the 1980s (Platoon, Last Temptation of Christ) and some independent films, including Light Sleeper with Susan Sarandon and Dana Delany (Lois Lane's VA from the STAS) but Spider-Man made him (and JK Simmons) into a belated movie star and a household name. He started getting more work as a character actor, villain, and in independent films after that. A movie like The Florida Project wouldn't have been made without Dafoe around to sell it, so he's become a name guy for smaller films.

Dafoe's performance also made Green Goblin into a really big popular villain, more than before. Until the first film, in the general culture, Doctor Octopus and Venom were far better known than GG was. In the comics he had been decommissioned for 20 years and his revival was controversial. He appeared in the Fox Cartoon sure but he wasn't maybe the most notable and memorable villain there. But thanks to Dafoe, Norman became really big, and Bendis' elevating Norman in the Marvel Universe seems to have been inspired by his fame thanks to the movie. So Dafoe did for Goblin what Cesar Romero and Jack Nicholson did for Joker.

[Castle]

Sam Raimi found a way to include Dafoe in all the Spider-Man films, either in hallucinations or in some weird cameo where he's an extra in the background. Raimi did that solely because he wanted an excuse for Dafoe to visit his sets and hang around.

The best thing Spider-Man did was make an actor as unusual and original as him into a household name. Before Dafoe had fallen off the radar, he had done a lot of cool films in the 1980s (Platoon, Last Temptation of Christ) and some independent films, including Light Sleeper with Susan Sarandon and Dana Delany (Lois Lane's VA from the STAS) but Spider-Man made him (and JK Simmons) into a belated movie star and a household name. He started getting more work as a character actor, villain, and in independent films after that. A movie like The Florida Project wouldn't have been made without Dafoe around to sell it, so he's become a name guy for smaller films.

Dafoe's performance also made Green Goblin into a really big popular villain, more than before. Until the first film, in the general culture, Doctor Octopus and Venom were far better known than GG was. In the comics he had been decommissioned for 20 years and his revival was controversial. He appeared in the Fox Cartoon sure but he wasn't maybe the most notable and memorable villain there. But thanks to Dafoe, Norman became really big, and Bendis' elevating Norman in the Marvel Universe seems to have been inspired by his fame thanks to the movie. So Dafoe did for Goblin what Cesar Romero and Jack Nicholson did for Joker.

Where Orc and Venom more popular than Goblin. I thought Goblin was the most famous Spiderman foe ever in lore. His Joker. the dude who killed Gwen Stacy. this is one of those story lines many people have heard off even if they never read a Spiderman comic. they know it was the green goblin that caused her death.

What Dafoe did was bring weight to the role. no doubt because he was a very accomplished actor, that took on what should have and would have looked like a cartoonish unrealistic comic book role in films and he made it work so perfectly. Not many actors could have pulled of the goblin look. A guy dressed up as a goblin ridding on a glider that flies , causing terror in new york? in a live action film?

it showed Dafoe's range to make that convincing and it also showed Sam Raimi commitment not to ground his comic movies too much unlike what Bryan Singer was doing with X-MEN around the same time.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Where Orc and Venom more popular than Goblin. I thought Goblin was the most famous Spiderman foe ever in lore.

There's a distinction between fans of 616 Spider-Man comics and "general readers". And among the latter, GG was invisible.

To put this in perspective, take the three biggest and most famous Spider-Man comics to the non-comics fan until about 2002:
1) SUPERMAN VS. THE AMAZING SPIDER-MAN (1976)
2) SECRET WARS 1984
3) THE WEDDING ANNUAL

Green Goblin didn't appear in any of these comics, but Doctor Octopus appeared in all three of them.
He was a co-villain with Lex Luthor in Superman V. TASM, he was one of the Spider-Man villains in SW'84 (alongside Lizard), and he made a cameo as the organ-player in Peter's dream before the Wedding alongside other rogues.

Venom broke big in the late 1980s and 1990s and became a merchandise guy and featured in games on Sega and other consoles, while Green Goblin didn't appear in any videogames at that time (until the 2002 Activision Game adaptation of SM-1).

His Joker. the dude who killed Gwen Stacy. this is one of those story lines many people have heard off even if they never read a Spiderman comic.

Gwen Stacy's death was never a famous story outside comics readers until the 2000s. People exaggerate its impact. In the actual 1970s, Superman vs. TASM where Gwen isn't around or mentioned was a far bigger deal among the general readership. Gwen didn't make a single appearance in any adaptation until the final season of Fox Spider-Man as an AU love-interest who the Fox Peter doesn't recognize and is confused by. Heck, even among comics readers, Gwen's fame came thanks to her revival with Kurt Busiek's MARVELS and then SPIDER-MAN BLUE.

Remember "comics history" is basically a fanboy constructed narrative. In the actual Silver Age nobody called it the Silver Age.

What Dafoe did was bring weight to the role. no doubt because he was a very accomplished actor, that took on what should have and would have looked like a cartoonish unrealistic comic book role in films and he made it work so perfectly. Not many actors could have pulled of the goblin look. A guy dressed up as a goblin ridding on a glider that flies , causing terror in new york? in a live action film?

Dafoe took that role to heart and he plays is straight. He sells the idea of Norman as a guy in a mid-life crisis, who's desperate and bored being a corporate businessman, who resents his family and so on. So there's something to relate in the guy which Dafoe conveys while his Goblin is both terrifying and entertaining in equal measure. When you cast Dafoe the entire Goblin aesthetic, this skintight flight suit with a crazy mask, just makes sense. You know instantly that "yep, totally in character" for Dafoe's Norman to let his freak flag be that weird.

[Toxin45]

There's a distinction between fans of 616 Spider-Man comics and "general readers". And among the latter, GG was invisible.

To put this in perspective, take the three biggest and most famous Spider-Man comics to the non-comics fan until about 2002:
1) SUPERMAN VS. THE AMAZING SPIDER-MAN (1976)
2) SECRET WARS 1984
3) THE WEDDING ANNUAL

Green Goblin didn't appear in any of these comics, but Doctor Octopus appeared in all three of them.
He was a co-villain with Lex Luthor in Superman V. TASM, he was one of the Spider-Man villains in SW'84 (alongside Lizard), and he made a cameo as the organ-player in Peter's dream before the Wedding alongside other rogues.

Venom broke big in the late 1980s and 1990s and became a merchandise guy and featured in games on Sega and other consoles, while Green Goblin didn't appear in any videogames at that time (until the 2002 Activision Game adaptation of SM-1).



Gwen Stacy's death was never a famous story outside comics readers until the 2000s. People exaggerate its impact. In the actual 1970s, Superman vs. TASM where Gwen isn't around or mentioned was a far bigger deal among the general readership. Gwen didn't make a single appearance in any adaptation until the final season of Fox Spider-Man as an AU love-interest who the Fox Peter doesn't recognize and is confused by. Heck, even among comics readers, Gwen's fame came thanks to her revival with Kurt Busiek's MARVELS and then SPIDER-MAN BLUE.

Remember "comics history" is basically a fanboy constructed narrative. In the actual Silver Age nobody called it the Silver Age.



Dafoe took that role to heart and he plays is straight. He sells the idea of Norman as a guy in a mid-life crisis, who's desperate and bored being a corporate businessman, who resents his family and so on. So there's something to relate in the guy which Dafoe conveys while his Goblin is both terrifying and entertaining in equal measure. When you cast Dafoe the entire Goblin aesthetic, this skintight flight suit with a crazy mask, just makes sense. You know instantly that "yep, totally in character" for Dafoe's Norman to let his freak flag be that weird.

Yeah the arch foe of spider man is because they kept replacing each other Norman ,ock,venom,jackel,hobgoblin,and carnage were all contenders but by the 90’s and 2000’s well as the 2010’s and 2020’s it was settle on Norman and ock being the two arch foes

[The_Sneezing_Stormtrooper]

There's a distinction between fans of 616 Spider-Man comics and "general readers". And among the latter, GG was invisible.

To put this in perspective, take the three biggest and most famous Spider-Man comics to the non-comics fan until about 2002:
1) SUPERMAN VS. THE AMAZING SPIDER-MAN (1976)
2) SECRET WARS 1984
3) THE WEDDING ANNUAL

Green Goblin didn't appear in any of these comics, but Doctor Octopus appeared in all three of them.
He was a co-villain with Lex Luthor in Superman V. TASM, he was one of the Spider-Man villains in SW'84 (alongside Lizard), and he made a cameo as the organ-player in Peter's dream before the Wedding alongside other rogues.

Venom broke big in the late 1980s and 1990s and became a merchandise guy and featured in games on Sega and other consoles, while Green Goblin didn't appear in any videogames at that time (until the 2002 Activision Game adaptation of SM-1).



Gwen Stacy's death was never a famous story outside comics readers until the 2000s. People exaggerate its impact. In the actual 1970s, Superman vs. TASM where Gwen isn't around or mentioned was a far bigger deal among the general readership. Gwen didn't make a single appearance in any adaptation until the final season of Fox Spider-Man as an AU love-interest who the Fox Peter doesn't recognize and is confused by. Heck, even among comics readers, Gwen's fame came thanks to her revival with Kurt Busiek's MARVELS and then SPIDER-MAN BLUE.

Remember "comics history" is basically a fanboy constructed narrative. In the actual Silver Age nobody called it the Silver Age.



Dafoe took that role to heart and he plays is straight. He sells the idea of Norman as a guy in a mid-life crisis, who's desperate and bored being a corporate businessman, who resents his family and so on. So there's something to relate in the guy which Dafoe conveys while his Goblin is both terrifying and entertaining in equal measure. When you cast Dafoe the entire Goblin aesthetic, this skintight flight suit with a crazy mask, just makes sense. You know instantly that "yep, totally in character" for Dafoe's Norman to let his freak flag be that weird.

As someone who grew up during this era and was 12 when the Raimi movie came out, you are not entirely correct. As a kid growing up in the 90s who had most of his exposure to Spiderman through the TV show, games, and random issues that my mom would get me at the drug store I have pretty much always considered Green Goblin his greatest enemy.

Yes, Venom was considered a big villain but remember that even in the TV show and in games like Maximum Carnage and the N64 game Venom would start out as an antagonist but always end up teaming up with Spidey to fight a greater evil. He was already pretty much in anti-hero territory to most young people in the late 90s.

Doc Ock always came across as just another villain in the show and never really did much that had much impact. The only Doc Ock story I remember finding interesting as a kid was an annual that went over his backstory shortly after he returned to life. Otherwise, I don't remember him leaving much as an impact as a kid. I even remember being kind of surprised that Doc Ock was going to be a solo villain in Spiderman 2 and wondered if the character was interesting enough to carry the full movie as a sole villain.

Norman had great built up over the course of the first three seasons of the show and had a huge impact at the end of the third season when he found out Peter's identity and got himself and MJ trapped in limbo. That story hung over the rest of the show. Norman coming back and talking puppeteering Harry into becoming the next Goblin made him feel like he was a lingering presence who was always due for a comeback. Not to mention that Norman was featured with regularity in the comics at the time in both the 616 and in Ultimate Spiderman before the movie. It made perfect sense to my 12-year-old brain that Norman was the obvious choice to be the villain in the Spiderman movie when I went to see it.

Also, the stories you listed were printed in the 80s and I don't think many kids in the 90s were getting their Spidey fix from old 80s back-issues. I think most of us were still getting whatever was at the drug store unless you were actively going to comic shops and trying to get into the older stuff.

You are 100% right about Gwen though. I had no idea who she was until around 2004 when I starting getting more into the history of Spidey instead of just focusing on what was current.

My experience obviously doesn't speak for everyone but just giving my 2 cents from someone who was a kid in that era.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

As someone who grew up during this era and was 12 when the Raimi movie came out, you are not entirely correct. As a kid growing up in the 90s who had most of his exposure to Spiderman through the TV show, games, and random issues that my mom would get me at the drug store I have always considered Green Goblin his greatest enemy.

Well which video games this would be? Because Green Goblin didn't appear in any major console releases in the 90s, not until the 2002 movie tie-in? He did appear in the Fox Cartoon though, so I'll give you that.

Also, the stories you listed were printed in the 80s and I don't think many kids in the 90s were getting their Spidey fix from old 80s back-issues. I think most of us were still getting whatever was at the drug store unless you were actively going to comic shops and trying to get into the older stuff.

Those comics maybe from the 1970s and 1980s but the fact is that they made an impact to non-comics fans, so for instance when these parents raised their kids and had to explain superheroes to them or their kids asked what superheroes were, they'd say oh Spider-Man fights Doctor Octopus and is married to Mary Jane and so on. And of course they'd be among the comics passed down in non-comics households and in several households becoming the entry-point for multiple generations of kids, and also nephews, cousins and so on. For some parents, Spider-Man is just the song from 1967 which they sang as a children's tune and so on. They'd never see the cartoon or anything.

That's how culture spreads.

You are 100% right about Gwen though. I had no idea who she was until around 2004 when I starting getting more into the history of Spidey instead of just focusing on what was current.

Cool.

My experience obviously doesn't speak for everyone but just giving my 2 cents from someone who was a kid in that era.

You are right. I didn't grow up among people who read superhero comics and the comics passed down to me as a kid were non-superhero titles (an education that I'm grateful for to be honest). And I can only tell you what my folks who knew nothing about Spider-Man knew about Spider-Man through osmosis. Obviously there are variations and I do tend to underrate the impact of the Fox Cartoon, because of prejudice (lol). The 2002 film changed the game for the Spider-Man franchise and Marvel franchise as well. With Spider-Man there was nothing to compare it before. Like with Superman, before the 1978 film, you had the Georges Reeves show which was a big deal, before that the Fleischer Cartoons, also a big deal. For Batman before Tim Burton there was Adam West. But Spider-Man (and Marvel) literally had no mainstream penetration with any adaptation until 2002. Aside from maybe the Hulk TV Show with Lou Ferrigno, there was really no adaptation of Marvel as big as Fleischer, George Reeves, Adam West to pave the way for the movie. So the 2002 movie was the first massive pop-culture footprint for Marvel outside media.

That kind of makes Marvel comics more impressive tbh. Like in the 1980s, when Superman and DC dominated the media, how is it that Marvel Comics outsold them? How is it that a Spider-Man Wedding event upstaged the world and became the first comics event to cross into mainstream news? It's kind of mysterious about how fame works and how little the rules on which it operates actually takes root. Essentially, synergy is bullsh-t.

[inisideguy]

When I was a kid, in the 80s and reading my brothers Amazing Spider-man comics, the green goblin was easily Spideys biggest enemy. The problem was he was limited with the whole memory thing. And then of course he was killed, and the Harry Goblin or the next one although fun never had the same impact. Then when Hobby started coming around for me as a teenager it was awesome. Then they screwed that all up

[Toxin45]

When I was a kid, in the 80s and reading my brothers Amazing Spider-man comics, the green goblin was easily Spideys biggest enemy. The problem was he was limited with the whole memory thing. And then of course he was killed, and the Harry Goblin or the next one although fun never had the same impact. Then when Hobby started coming around for me as a teenager it was awesome. Then they screwed that all up

Then Norman came back in the 90’s and since appears in more media

[Kaitou D. Kid]

I mean, there is also Hobgoblin who was pretty big. The reason they didn't do Green Goblin in the 90s show until Season 3 is because he had become an afterthought and Hobgoblin was the new Goblin (no pun intended). That's why Hobgoblin showed up before Green Goblin in the show. The Green Goblin was only brought in after Norman was brought back at the end of the Clone Saga. I believe Hobgoblin also made the most appearances until the Green Goblin showed up, more than even Venom by one or two episodes. And they got Mark Hamill to voice him who was also voicing the Joker, so fanbase-wise I would say Hobgoblin was still perceived as the archenemy as of the 1990s.

Among general audiences, I was a kid at the time and do remember Venom being the most known Spider-Man villain (and coolest). I remember it being that way up until the early-to-mid 2000's. Green Goblin was second at worst thanks to the Raimi film.

The Raimi films and Ultimate Spider-Man arguably widened the gap between Venom and the Green Goblin by a lot. Both of those introduced a huge Millennial audience to Spider-Man, and both had good takes on Norman and forgettable versions of Venom. Also both of those Norman's stuck around (as a ghost in the case of Raimi-Norman), while Venom was a one-and-done thing in both Spider-Man 3 and in Bendis' run.

Even among hardcore fans, I remember there used to be more debate as to who Spider-Man's archenemy was. It seems like there is even less of that now. I think that's due to 1) how present Norman has been in Peter's life since his resurrection, 2) the success of The Spectacular Spider-Man, and 3) Norman becoming an MU-wide villain, which typically happens only with archenemies.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I mean, there is also Hobgoblin who was pretty big. The reason they didn't do Green Goblin in the 90s show until Season 3 is because he had become an afterthought and Hobgoblin was the new Goblin (no pun intended).

John Semper the showrunner said that was driven by merchandise, because Marvel merged with Toy-Biz (which is when Isaac Perlmutter and Avi Arad enter the Marvel story, they belonged to the company that merged with Marvel in the 90s, and then basically never left). Arad thought Hobgoblin toys would sell more because it seemed more hip and contemporary.

And even then the Hobgoblin there was Macendale and not Kingsley.

The Raimi films and Ultimate Spider-Man arguably widened the gap between Venom and the Green Goblin by a lot.

Venom appeared in the 2000 Activision Game, where he was a ton of fun. That aside, you are right. Venom's fortunes really did dip in the 2000s. In the comics, Eddie Brock had the cancer story at the time, Mac Gargan became Venom for a while, and the Symbiote had become this embarassment. Things did revive in the 2010s though.

Sometimes characters peak or blossom in a few decades and then dip afterwards. Among supervillains, Joker is basically unique for never going out of style (barring a small blip in the late '60s in the comics). Among Marvel, I guess Doom is closest to that. But everyone else has peaks and valleys.

[Frontier]

And even then the Hobgoblin there was Macendale and not Kingsley.

Characterization-wise he was Kingsley, they just used Macendale's name. It was basically like DCAU Tim Drake being Jason Todd in all but name.

[Toxin45]

Characterization-wise he was Kingsley, they just used Macendale's name. It was basically like DCAU Tim Drake being Jason Todd in all but name.

Yeah it was weird. Like doc ock was ignored until ends of the earth and superior spider man where he was now the second competitor for the title of spider-man’s archenemy alongside norman

[The_Sneezing_Stormtrooper]

Well which video games this would be? Because Green Goblin didn't appear in any major console releases in the 90s, not until the 2002 movie tie-in? He did appear in the Fox Cartoon though, so I'll give you that.



Those comics maybe from the 1970s and 1980s but the fact is that they made an impact to non-comics fans, so for instance when these parents raised their kids and had to explain superheroes to them or their kids asked what superheroes were, they'd say oh Spider-Man fights Doctor Octopus and is married to Mary Jane and so on. And of course they'd be among the comics passed down in non-comics households and in several households becoming the entry-point for multiple generations of kids, and also nephews, cousins and so on. For some parents, Spider-Man is just the song from 1967 which they sang as a children's tune and so on. They'd never see the cartoon or anything.

That's how culture spreads.



Cool.



You are right. I didn't grow up among people who read superhero comics and the comics passed down to me as a kid were non-superhero titles (an education that I'm grateful for to be honest). And I can only tell you what my folks who knew nothing about Spider-Man knew about Spider-Man through osmosis. Obviously there are variations and I do tend to underrate the impact of the Fox Cartoon, because of prejudice (lol). The 2002 film changed the game for the Spider-Man franchise and Marvel franchise as well. With Spider-Man there was nothing to compare it before. Like with Superman, before the 1978 film, you had the Georges Reeves show which was a big deal, before that the Fleischer Cartoons, also a big deal. For Batman before Tim Burton there was Adam West. But Spider-Man (and Marvel) literally had no mainstream penetration with any adaptation until 2002. Aside from maybe the Hulk TV Show with Lou Ferrigno, there was really no adaptation of Marvel as big as Fleischer, George Reeves, Adam West to pave the way for the movie. So the 2002 movie was the first massive pop-culture footprint for Marvel outside media.

That kind of makes Marvel comics more impressive tbh. Like in the 1980s, when Superman and DC dominated the media, how is it that Marvel Comics outsold them? How is it that a Spider-Man Wedding event upstaged the world and became the first comics event to cross into mainstream news? It's kind of mysterious about how fame works and how little the rules on which it operates actually takes root. Essentially, synergy is bullsh-t.

The games were always a Venomfest. I included them more to talk about how Venom was more of an antihero in those than a straight-up villain.

I definitely didn't grow up with parents who were into comics or anything nerdy so I have no idea what parents who were comic fans were giving their kids in the 90s. I just went with whatever issue was on the magazine stand. Even then, a lot of the time I would get a Simpsons comic or something else instead. Still, Norman was enough of a regular presence to make himself a big deal to a casual reader at the time. Ultimate Spiderman was a big deal when it came out and probably had the biggest pre-movie impact for Norman on the comic side.

The 90s show is definitely what had the biggest impact on me back then and I would argue that it laid the foundation for a lot of the decisions that would be made in the movies. Though, I can't deny that while the show might have been what impacted kids the most in the decade leading up, the movie obviously had a MUCH wider audience than any cartoon or comic and was probably the introduction to a lot of Spiderman elements to a lot of people, including Norman.