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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jewel Runner View Post
    I question in what way it's not downplaying the success by saying the movies have done well because of novelty.
    And when you're saying stuff like that don't talk to me about blanket statements
    Obviously the films have a decent level of quality to them, otherwise novelty wouldn't have been enough. Both Homecoming and FFH are well done on a technical level.

    As far as whether or not novelty was a factor in their success, I don't think there is much debate there. The marketing for both films relied heavily on the association with the MCU and of each film being a follow-up to major MCU events. This is a neutral observation and not an inherently negative one (they're not the only superhero films to rely on novelty, and a film relying on it doesn't mean it can't be a good movie on its own).

    The real question is if this is a Spider-Man that can continue to captivate audiences going forward without the novelty factor present. My opinion is no, as I find this Spider-Man to be pretty empty and not a fully-fleshed out character once his Tony Stark connections are gone.

    This was done by design as they deliberately designed this Spider-Man to revolve around Tony's character arc and the greater MCU, as I'm sure you know.

    Going forward, they can continue to breathe new novelty and gimmicks into the films, or they can prioritize making Holland's version a fully-fleshed out character that can carry a film on his own...the Spider-Verse connection and the presence of Doctor Strange leads me to believe they picked the former instead of the latter.

  2. #32
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    You're proving my point.
    Because don't like the character, he's empty and relying on gimmicks that's what you made clear here.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    Seriously I always wonder how much disney or feige knew about the character of spiderman, they did overplay the tony stark narrative a lot though.
    It's possible for people to know the character of Spider-Man and his comics and so on, and still make a mess in an adaptation. That can happen. It's posisble for someone to be a fan of the character and screw up. So I don't think the MCU Spider-Man is a sign that the producers and others don't get Spider-Man or any such thing, necessarily.

    All I can say is that the movie that got made is a poor interpretation of the character and aside from name and one of his costumes doesn't really resemble the character. But I see that as a confluence of compromises and desperation by Sony and MCU than malice or stupidity on anyone's part. They decided to make Spider-Man The Toy Commercial The Movie, and on that level they work.

    Wait, are you been sarcastic? I know many spiderman fans tell smart jokes about their disdain for tony stark's and avengers presence and influence in Spiderman's life?
    At the end of FAR FROM HOME, Peter's identity is exposed, so obviously by the end of NO WAY HOME, Peter's identity has to go under wraps. You cannot tell Spider-Man stories in a serial continuity with his identity exposed. That's a good way to create a status-quo to build around and take things through but it's not a lasting thing you can keep going perpetually. So yeah, I think it's a legit theory to close out Peter's high school years and create a fresh slate for the college era assuming they'll go ahead with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jewel Runner View Post
    I question in what way it's not downplaying the success by saying the movies have done well because of novelty.
    Kaitou doesn't mean novelty in the sense of box-office success...however even if you take that approach:

    As far as the success of the MCU Spider-Man goes. If you break things down, MCU Spider-Man has done alright but it's not been exceptionally successful compared to other superhero movies.Remember that the profitability of any blockbuster movie primarily rests on US Domestic Grosses. International grosses are extra and icing but without US grosses it doesn't move the needle because for international markets studios have to split fees for customs, tariffs, local distributor fees, localization and subtitle costs, and local marketing and so on. US Domestic Grosses though are bonanza mostly since they get some tax breaks at home and keep a larger chunk for themselves. [TLDR: When a movie says it made $1bn worldwide grosses, it does not literally mean a billion dollars, it's more a state of mind].

    There's only been Spider-Man movie that's reached $400mn domestic and that's Raimi's Spider-Man 1 in 2002 which made $403mn US Domestic. Adjust that for inflation in 2020 money and that's $629mn. Spider-Man Far From Home made $390mn domestic. For an MCU solo movie...Black Panther made $700mn domestic, Captain Marvel made $426mn domestic. So Tom Holland Spidey, the supposed young teenage Spidey meant to appeal to kids was outperformed by a movie starring a 40-year old, and another movie starring a 29 year-old. Guardians of the Galaxy 2 made $389mn, so Far From Home made a million dollars more than the Talking Raccoon Franchise's sequel, so yay?!

    Coming into the MCU has not made Spider-Man more profitable than he was before. The main reason for the profitability isn't the deep-dive to the Spidey mythos (which isn't there) but as a kind of MCU tie-in. So yeah, Kaitou B. Kid is quite right to refer to novelty as the source for the Tom Holland's movies appeal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jewel Runner View Post
    You're proving my point.
    Because don't like the character, he's empty and relying on gimmicks that's what you made clear here.
    1) You need to accept criticism.
    2) It's perfectly valid for people to dislike the character and use that as a reason to express their point of view. It's not some big crime or bad thing that you seem to take issue with.
    3) Kaitou B. Kid doesn't hate the character at all.

  4. #34
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    Its funny you claim not to be biased yet you show it by ignoring the total amount Far From Home made and only going by domestic, and then show it even further by derogativly comparing it to GOTG as if those movies are doing bad by any means.
    Your agenda is obvious here.

  5. #35
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jewel Runner View Post
    Its funny you claim not to be biased
    1) I did not claim I wasn't biased.

    2) Everyone is biased to some extent. You are biased in favor of these movies, but you don't see me or others here going after you for your bias.

    ...yet you show it by ignoring the total amount Far From Home made
    Because as anyone who knows stuff about the box office market knows, the numbers a movie reports to make don't actually tell a proper story. International grosses have caveats and local fees that means that the studio only keeps a smaller share of profits from international grosses as a percentage of the overall total. What really determines a movie's box office success is domestic market.

    ...and then show it even further by derogativly comparing it to GOTG as if those movies are doing bad by any means.
    For Guardians of the Galaxy to do as well as it did based on the most obscure comics properties imaginable (and seriously the upcoming ETERNALS had more recognition than Guardians did in the year of its release) is impressive.

    For freaking Spider-Man to score a little higher than the Talking Racoon movie...it's not impressive, it's basically grounds for Rocket to walk in and go, "Do you even lift, bro?"

  6. #36
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    So you are biased, which makes this hard to take seriously, Far From Home was the 4th highest-grossing movie of 2019 you're doing nothing but trying to downplay that so it fits to your narrative, the same thing you're doing to the Guardians, you're downplaying how successful those movies are and how well they did so you try and make Far From Home look worse.

  7. #37
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jewel Runner View Post
    So you are biased,
    As are you.

    C-658VsXoAo3ovC.jpg

    ...you're downplaying how successful those movies are and how well they did so you try and make Far From Home look worse.
    Ultimately, if you like the movie it shouldn't matter to you how it does at the box-office. My favorite Batman movie, Batman Returns, didn't do as well as Batman 1989, after all.

    If you like these movies, then good for you. At the same time these movies have a somewhat polarizing response too, and that reaction isn't surprising if you measure these movies against other MCU movies and other Spider-Man movies.

    So if someone says why they dislike the movie or explain its success as novelty...that opinion has strong and valid ground to stand on.

  8. #38
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    And now you're just changing the subject

  9. #39
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jewel Runner View Post
    And now you're just changing the subject

    Thor Am i though.jpg

    Anyway, this is probably where the fun ribbing stops being fun...

  10. #40
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    Yeah, I'd appreciate it if we could get back on topic to focusing on the movie .

  11. #41
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    I will say that the pandemic being what it is, and the state of movie theaters being what they are, that I do hope that Spider-Man No Way Home releases in theaters and becomes a big success. I think it might do well as a big tentpole, everyone's vaccinated now, movie release.

    So on that level, I wish it well. I mean there are plenty of mediocre and bad movies that do inexplicably well at the box-office, no reason why the third Tom Holland movie can't join that club.

  12. #42
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    I fail to see why you're even talking here if you're not even gonna try and pretend you're talking in good faith

  13. #43
    Mighty Member Castle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jewel Runner View Post
    I fail to see why you're even talking here if you're not even gonna try and pretend you're talking in good faith
    You do know Holand's Spiderman has had this criticism since 2017? it was just never talked about in the media. At this point, good faith will only work if like Kaitou D. Kid said, there was a chance things may change but it is unlikely things would.


    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    I will say that the pandemic being what it is, and the state of movie theaters being what they are, that I do hope that Spider-Man No Way Home releases in theaters and becomes a big success. I think it might do well as a big tentpole, everyone's vaccinated now, movie release.

    So on that level, I wish it well. I mean there are plenty of mediocre and bad movies that do inexplicably well at the box-office, no reason why the third Tom Holland movie can't join that club.
    I am surprised it is getting release this year, I thought it was 2022.

    2021 is still too soon. 2020 was about the COVID nightmare.

    2021 is about trying to get rid of COVID, the vaccine has yet to work in full effect for things to return to normal, I always assume that will take another 18 months (1.5 years) for that to be achieved.

    If it is released in 2021 I don't see the movie making money at all. it may do Tenet numbers.

  14. #44
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    Agree with the others; can we get back on the subject of the upcoming movie and stop with the finger-pointing r.e. the qualities of the previous ones?

    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
    X-23: "I know there are people who disapprove... Guys on the Internet mainly."
    (All-New Wolverine #4)

  15. #45

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    I hope that the issue of his identity is not immediately solved in the first 10 minutes of the movie. that would be annoying.

    I wonder if Peter will be arrested and put on trial.

    No actual villain has been announced, despite the alleged involvement of Alfred Molina and Jamie Foxx. This is distressing.

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