Spider-Man 3: No Way Home

[Scott Taylor]

I think Peter screwing up Strange's plans with the villains and their fight is what sidelines him until the climax.

Yah I agree. Peter is going to somehow trap Strange in a box of holding or something during their fight. He'll escape just in time to help save Peter at the end.

[Kaitou D. Kid]

I don't think Holland is going to be immediately done. I think he has 2-3 films left in the pipe.

Based on everything he's been saying recently, I don't know about 2-3. I guess we will have to wait and see (it also depends on this film's ending).

I agree with Raimi's Ock. Visually, he is almost perfect and the battles with Spider-Man is such a joy, it's like bringing their conflict from the pages into live action. But, i was never fan of the arms' AI controlling or at least, influencing Otto into villainy. They wanted Lizard but they used Doc Ock and mixed elements. It worked in a way, but it's not an Ock that complements the original comic book version. Insomniacs Ock, on the other hand, is a much better execution and kept 2 basic elements of 616's Ock, his paranoia and jealousy of others.

I agree with what you said about using Raimi's villains and i'll have to add that it's also cheap nostalgia to bring more money and not something new or fresh. Classic Disney tactic.

Funny, I've seen people blame both Disney and Sony for NWH bringing the old versions back. Some attribute it to Disney and nostalgia, and others to Sony wanting to milk Spider-Verse. (My feeling is that it's a bit of both.)

It's going to be interesting if background information on MCU Spider-Man is ever leaked. As of now it's surprisingly hard to draw the line between Sony decisions and Marvel/Disney decisions. I'm genuinely interested in how much of both the pros and cons of MCU Spider-Man come from each studio. Answering that question can also potentially answer which studio the character would be better off with.

[David Walton]

Does Doctor Strange realize that if Peter were, in fact, to "Scooby-Doo" this crap it would turn out there's not in fact a multiverse, it was just some random townsperson who was trying to steal a treasure or drive down real estate prices so he can make a killing.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I don't think Holland is going to be immediately done. I think he has 2-3 films left in the pipe.

CBR claims here that his contract is done with NWH.
https://www.cbr.com/uncharted-tom-holland-injuries/

Funny, I've seen people blame both Disney and Sony for NWH bringing the old versions back. Some attribute it to Disney and nostalgia, and others to Sony wanting to milk Spider-Verse. (My feeling is that it's a bit of both.)

I think it comes down to timing and opportunity. As well as circumstances.

Remember that the third Spider-Man movie was developed and greenlit right when the Sony-Marvel deal broke. So Sony wanted to do something that could compensate and substitute for Holland continuing to be part of the MCU and the team-up with the Raimi and Garfield movies filled that void. Now of course eventually the deal went back "on" but given that the script and location and production designs had to be decided and set upon by then, it feels like that was something where the train set in motion and there wasn't anything to do. Then you had the ITSV film which was supposed to feature all three Spiders in a rejected cameo.

Also the actors ages is a consideration -- Molina, Dafoe, and whoknows are not going to be available or physically in the right condition and age for good (Molina has talked about how he had to act a certain way for the de-aging and make-up stuff to take effect). Tobey Maguire is pushing 50, Garfield is reaching 40...so in theory this is like the best time you are gonna have for the right mix of nostalgia and everyone more or less looking as close to their best as possible.

It's going to be interesting if background information on MCU Spider-Man is ever leaked. As of now it's surprisingly hard to draw the line between Sony decisions and Marvel/Disney decisions. I'm genuinely interested in how much of both the pros and cons of MCU Spider-Man come from each studio. Answering that question can also potentially answer which studio the character would be better off with.

Some things are clear. Kevin Feige said that Vulture's characterization in HOMECOMING came more from Sony:
https://screenrant.com/spider-man-ho...allel-villain/

He said that Amy Pascal made him watch Akira Kurosawa's Japanese classic High and Low for ideas for Vulture's motivation, and Feige didn't see that movie before. It's kind of hard to get a handle because for promotional reasons, both Sony and MCU want everyone to see the Spider-Man movies as MCU products and certainly visually and aesthetically it's a lot more like a MCU movie than even a Marc Webb movie because it has the bland lighting and color grading you see people roast the MCU for, whereas Sony doesn't seem to have developed a common house style leaving stuff like that to directors and DPs to handle.

The basic problem with MCU is the lack of available objective information going forward, it seems.

Does Doctor Strange realize that if Peter were, in fact, to "Scooby-Doo" this crap it would turn out there's not in fact a multiverse, it was just some random townsperson who was trying to steal a treasure or drive down real estate prices so he can make a killing.

For all we know it might well be that, who knows. Maybe the multiverse is some red herring.

[Webhead]

Does Doctor Strange realize that if Peter were, in fact, to "Scooby-Doo" this crap it would turn out there's not in fact a multiverse, it was just some random townsperson who was trying to steal a treasure or drive down real estate prices so he can make a killing.

I think the reference is better suited for the 13 Ghosts incarnation, which had real ghosts and they had to put them back in that chest. Although it's likely not the version most people will think of.

[David Walton]

I think the reference is better suited for the 13 Ghosts incarnation, which had real ghosts and they had to put them back in that chest. Although it's likely not the version most people will think of.

True. I'm not familiar with that one! Any good?

I suppose they were bound to run into real ghosts at some point!

[Webhead]

True. I'm not familiar with that one! Any good?

I suppose they were bound to run into real ghosts at some point!

I haven't seen it since I was a kid. It was enjoyable but not really as good without the original cast.

It does have Vincent Price playing a supporting character which is pretty cool.

[Scott Taylor]

Does Doctor Strange realize that if Peter were, in fact, to "Scooby-Doo" this crap it would turn out there's not in fact a multiverse, it was just some random townsperson who was trying to steal a treasure or drive down real estate prices so he can make a killing.

Now I am going to be disappointed if they don't yank the mask off the Green Goblin at the end and discover it has been Wong all along!

[Revolutionary_Jack]

True. I'm not familiar with that one! Any good?

I suppose they were bound to run into real ghosts at some point!

The Scooby Doo people have faced real ghosts or supernatural elements in a number of DTV videos, and follow-up series as well as the live-action movies.

But culturally, that version hasn't displaced the original concept (from Scooby Doo Where Are You?) of the ghosts being hoaxes.

[Lukmendes]

As much as I like that we're getting the Green Goblin in NWH, I do think it makes it likelier we will get Iron Patriot instead of the Green Goblin whenever MCU Norman shows up.

Assuming he even shows up, Dafoe showing up as Green Goblin lowers the chance of MCU's Norman debutting, at least any time soon.

The only Avenger Peter even really was close to or on a communicative basis was Tony. And judging by Wanda it doesn't seem like the Avengers kept good tabs with each other outside of the team.

That'll help to make F4 stand out from Avengers in this one trait at least, assuming they're adapted properly, 'cause F4 not heaving from one of their members in over a week would make the rest worried lol.

I think Peter screwing up Strange's plans with the villains and their fight is what sidelines him until the climax.

Spidey managing to knock down Strange sounds odd lol.

Also possible Strange has to leave to fix some dimensional ripping nonsense caused by the other villains showing up.

I agree with what you said about using Raimi's villains and i'll have to add that it's also cheap nostalgia to bring more money and not something new or fresh. Classic Disney tactic.

We should've expected something like this since the multiverse became a thing in MCU .

Does Doctor Strange realize that if Peter were, in fact, to "Scooby-Doo" this crap it would turn out there's not in fact a multiverse, it was just some random townsperson who was trying to steal a treasure or drive down real estate prices so he can make a killing.

Strange is clearly talking about Scooby-Doo's movies, where the monsters are very real .

Now I am going to be disappointed if they don't yank the mask off the Green Goblin at the end and discover it has been Wong all along!

That would at least give an actual reason for Michelle and Ganke to be around, they split up and are looking for clues .

[Frontier]

That'll help to make F4 stand out from Avengers in this one trait at least, assuming they're adapted properly, 'cause F4 not heaving from one of their members in over a week would make the rest worried lol.

At the very least they'll get to spend more time developing the team dynamic than The Avengers do.

Spidey managing to knock down Strange sounds odd lol.

I'm assuming it's that fight in the trailers where he's wearing the FFH red and black suit.

[Kaitou D. Kid]

CBR claims here that his contract is done with NWH.
https://www.cbr.com/uncharted-tom-holland-injuries/

That comment about Amy Pascal wanting to do 100 more films with Holland is very... creepy, considering Holland is her employee and is going around saying he is burnt out from all these Sony films. Not a good look for Pascal.[/QUOTE]

I think it comes down to timing and opportunity. As well as circumstances.

Remember that the third Spider-Man movie was developed and greenlit right when the Sony-Marvel deal broke. So Sony wanted to do something that could compensate and substitute for Holland continuing to be part of the MCU and the team-up with the Raimi and Garfield movies filled that void. Now of course eventually the deal went back "on" but given that the script and location and production designs had to be decided and set upon by then, it feels like that was something where the train set in motion and there wasn't anything to do. Then you had the ITSV film which was supposed to feature all three Spiders in a rejected cameo.

Also the actors ages is a consideration -- Molina, Dafoe, and whoknows are not going to be available or physically in the right condition and age for good (Molina has talked about how he had to act a certain way for the de-aging and make-up stuff to take effect). Tobey Maguire is pushing 50, Garfield is reaching 40...so in theory this is like the best time you are gonna have for the right mix of nostalgia and everyone more or less looking as close to their best as possible.

I do think the choice to do Spider-Verse has a lot to do with novelty, especially since you can't use Downey's Iron Man anymore. Only other thing right now as "hot" as Spider-Verse with Tobey/Andrew and another Downey crossover is maybe a Black Panther crossover, but you couldn't do that with Boseman being gone.

Also, both Homecoming and Far From Home were follow-ups from event films. Since NWH isn't a follow-up to one, it kinda makes sense (going by the novelty aspect of MCU Spidey) to turn NWH himself into an event film, hence Spider-Verse became even likelier in the minds of Sony/Disney.

Some things are clear. Kevin Feige said that Vulture's characterization in HOMECOMING came more from Sony:
https://screenrant.com/spider-man-ho...allel-villain/

Interesting. I actually really like MCU Vulture's characterization and how he is essentially an evil Uncle Ben (former blue-collar guy doing what he does out of responsibility to his family, much like Peter in other continuities). It sucks that Stark and the Randian elements are there and that Uncle Ben isn't brought up, because if Homecoming was a story that stuck to Spider-Man's corner of the world, the idea of Peter facing a guy that has so much in common with Bencas his first villain is actually kinda brilliant.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

That comment about Amy Pascal wanting to do 100 more films with Holland is very... creepy, considering Holland is her employee and is going around saying he is burnt out from all these Sony films. Not a good look for Pascal.

Well Amy Pascal is a famously polarizing figure and very controversial. She became a national laughing stock when the Sony Email Hacks happened where she apparently traded a racist joke about Obama in a perfect example of the white liberal racism that's there across the media industry and was satirized in Get Out.

Still she managed to roll with the punches and recovered from that, and that's impressive for a female producer who otherwise would have been run out for that. In terms of fandom optics, it's easy to paint Kevin Feige as the guy who's in charge and knows what he's doing and Pascal and Sony as a bunch of f--kups who can't tie their shoelaces but that narrative is too simplistic and propagandistic. Unlike Kevin Feige who has never once produced a Non-IP movie in his life, Pascal has produced a number of features outside Spider-Man, like she produced Little Women for Greta Gerwig and The Post for Spielberg, so while she might have her ditzy moments, she's also a capable movie producer in other respects, and she's been tested and done time in the trenches whereas Feige has mostly had to manage properties that on paper were far safer and never had to produce, market, and shepherd a movie that wasn't presold.

Still you have to be careful about the public pronouncements made here and there. Pascal may talk a good game and boast big but there's a difference between that and what she would actually like to do and will do. She wants to give the impression at least going in, that Sony wants to continue its relationship with Tom Holland which might be true given that the salary they are paying him is way lower than what it was to the Raimi era Spider-Man Cast (Kirsten Dunst herself has earned more than Garfield and Holland have) and Holland might have pay disputes in mind about continuing to play Peter.

Interesting. I actually really like MCU Vulture's characterization and how he is essentially an evil Uncle Ben (former blue-collar guy doing what he does out of responsibility to his family, much like Peter in other continuities). It sucks that Stark and the Randian elements are there and that Uncle Ben isn't brought up, because if Homecoming was a story that stuck to Spider-Man's corner of the world, the idea of Peter facing a guy that has so much in common with Bencas his first villain is actually kinda brilliant.

The stuff about Vulture being a blue-collar guy radicalized into resentment by a corrupt businessman partner is from 616 Comics. Roger Stern wrote Vulture's origin in his run. The guy who screwed Vulture over in comics was Gregory Bestman. In the movies they had Tony sub-in for Bestman. The result is in the comics, Peter and the police could condemn Bestman for embezzling Toomes and they promise Vulture that while he's going down for being a villain, Bestman's going to go to jail as well. Whereas in Homecoming, Spider-Man doesn't get to hold Stark to account. It's an example of how the Spider-man comics' anti-corporate message got softened in the film. Heck Kurosawa's High and Low had a similar message against corporations and consumerism. So it seems like the people making this didn't get the messages of their influences.

Justice for Bestman.jpg

[Lukmendes]

At the very least they'll get to spend more time developing the team dynamic than The Avengers do.

May they get the family dynamic, something the last one apparently failed at.

Also man I hope they don't spend too much time with F4's origin, 'cause, their origin isn't that much of a big deal, they're not like Spidey or Batman where the origin has a big emotional aspect to it, only Ben got fucked over but it's only because he got his powers, not because of any event that happened before this.

It can still have their origin, and I think unlike Spidey, skipping it could be questionable since they're gonna be a super team so it needs a starting point, but it shouldn't be that big of a focus.

Whereas in Homecoming, Spider-Man doesn't get to hold Stark to account. It's an example of how the Spider-man comics' anti-corporate message got softened in the film. Heck Kurosawa's High and Low had a similar message against corporations and consumerism. So it seems like the people making this didn't get the messages of their influences.

Kinda difficult to have an anti-corporate message when Stark is MCU's main guy lol.

Justice for Bestman.jpg

Is the artist in this Romita Jr.? 'Cause the guy's face in the last panel reminds me of the way he draws faces.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Kinda difficult to have an anti-corporate message when Stark is MCU's main guy lol.

Well you do have anti-corporate stories with good and bad corporations. Like It's A Wonderful Life has an evil banker as the bad guy, but the good guy is also a banker. The Iron Man solo movies always pit Tony against a worse kind of capitalist than he is (Stane in IM-1, Justin Hammer in IM-2, Killian in IM-3).

The problem is shoehorning Tony Stark into the role of a clear heel, a role that the comics painted as the real heel, and still have him end the movie without condemnation. And any time you bring this issue about Iron Man being left off the hook or raise it anywhere you have a bunch of MCU-fans like clockwork frothing in the mouth about how Toomes was inherently evil and had to be put down and how Tony's this paragon who's untouchable.

It's a defining case of how fan culture trumps ethics. I mean sure Toomes/Vulture is a bad guy but one can accept that and still agree that he's a victim of a system like Roger Stern did in the original comic, like Kurosawa in High and Low, or you know Batman TAS where Mr. Freeze's origin story had Batman condemn Ferris Boyle and had him brought in for what he did to Victor Fries (which is an example of being critical of a corporation while still having the hero be a capitalist).

Is the artist in this Romita Jr.? 'Cause the guy's face in the last panel reminds me of the way he draws faces.

Yep it's JRJR, during his first run on ASM with Roger Stern (he came back with JMS). JRJR and Stern worked on their run for nearly all the stories and issues except for "The Kid Who Collects Spider-Man" which was done by Ron Frenz).