Spider-Man 3: No Way Home

[Kaitou D. Kid]

So what, would Norman debut as Iron Patriot here? If so, kinda funny a friend of mine suggested the same thing lol.

As much as I like that we're getting the Green Goblin in NWH, I do think it makes it likelier we will get Iron Patriot instead of the Green Goblin whenever MCU Norman shows up.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

That TV Spot with Otto describing the Iron Spider arms as competition is a funny scene but it illustrates my problem with Raimi's Doctor Octopus.

The character is written as an ordinary mensch of a scientist who's happily married and stable. Then this accident wrecks his life, kills her and drives him mad and he's possessed by these AI from these tentacles, i.e. the puppetmaster is puppeteered by his strings, and so on. But then once he's pupeetered by these AI, he acts like comics Ock and a stereotypical supervillain, and that doesn't make a great deal of sense from writing and characterization. It's not Jekyll and Hyde exactly, it's Jekyll and Snidely Whiplash.

Like in this scene, Otto is attacking someone he thinks is Peter, but on seeing the extra arms he lets out a joke saying "Looks like we got competition" and it's actually a good line of dialogue (better than MCU-ese we hear elsewhere) but it's also hard to square that with the character he defaults to later on.

It's one of the many examples why Spider-Man 2 isn't such an effective film as the first one.

[Toxin45]

As much as I like that we're getting the Green Goblin in NWH, I do think it makes it likelier we will get Iron Patriot instead of the Green Goblin whenever MCU Norman shows up.

Maybe iron goblin armor Norman for when he loses the iron patriot armor

[Kaitou D. Kid]

That TV Spot with Otto describing the Iron Spider arms as competition is a funny scene but it illustrates my problem with Raimi's Doctor Octopus.

The character is written as an ordinary mensch of a scientist who's happily married and stable. Then this accident wrecks his life, kills her and drives him mad and he's possessed by these AI from these tentacles, i.e. the puppetmaster is puppeteered by his strings, and so on. But then once he's pupeetered by these AI, he acts like comics Ock and a stereotypical supervillain, and that doesn't make a great deal of sense from writing and characterization. It's not Jekyll and Hyde exactly, it's Jekyll and Snidely Whiplash.

Like in this scene, Otto is attacking someone he thinks is Peter, but on seeing the extra arms he lets out a joke saying "Looks like we got competition" and it's actually a good line of dialogue (better than MCU-ese we hear elsewhere) but it's also hard to square that with the character he defaults to later on.

It's one of the many examples why Spider-Man 2 isn't such an effective film as the first one.

It's part of why I don't think Spider-Man 2 Ock is a very good version of Ock. He is essentially a halfway measure between 616 Ock and the Lizard, and I feel like the film can't decide which of those it wants him to be.

Insomniac's Ock, IMO, is Raimi's Ock done right.

About the Raimi villains coming back, I actually find it bittersweet. On one hand, I love that we'll get to see Dafoe and Molina again because they were perfect casting. On the other, I would prefer if they were new versions from a different universe altogether. I would love to see Dafoe play a sane Green Goblin and Molina to play an egocentric gangster Ock. Even worse, the fact that they're facing MCU Spider-Man probably means we won't ever see GG and Ock in the MCU. In other words, the 616 versions of GG and Ock won't be done in live-action for many years to come, presumably not until the next reboot (whenever that is).

[Frontier]

I always just view the tentacles as releasing Otto's inhibitions rather than fully controlling him. I remember Spectacular depicted it similarly.

It has nothing to do with the Shared Universe, as this question can be applied to a lot of films post the first Avengers movie. From what I understand from the Spider-Man: Homecoming artbook and interviews that bring up why didn't X character call the Avengers it comes down to if overcrowding a scene, actor availability, and if this character appearing in this movie might mess with plans another writer has for said character.

A more recent example would be Peter not helping Sam and Bucky defend Manhattan in the last episode of Falcon and The Winter Soldier.

It does feel like to me that we're seeing the Disney+ heroes fight more street crime than MCU Spider-Man actually is.

[Vic Vega]

Now's actually good time to ask why Spider-Man doesn't get real help? I mean why not call War Machine, Hulk, Ant-Man, and others to bail him out or have them intervene in a Multiverse shenanigan thing?

Even the whole identity reveal thing. Why is that have to be a big deal, can't they just ask Pepper to send a Stark lawyer to ensure Peter's fine and they have security and/or witness protection stuff to protect May and his friends while he continues as Spider-Man.

I get the real reason why...the Shared Universe doesn't actually exist meaningfully for Spider-Man, he exists for them...but it's stupidity like bringing his teenage sidekicks to a supervillain hunt that reveals the seams that show up in stories like this.

Does Pete really need the Avengers help to deal with the Sinister Six? When he has the Iron Spider gear?

I also question how much access Pete has to the Avengers other than being friends with Happy ( who can contact War Machine) and knowing where Doc Strange lives.

And besides once you have called in Dr. Strange you shouldn't really need anymore guys.

[Agent Z]

Right, just as they weren't expecting the Fantastic Four in the MCU becoming a possibility in a decade after Iron Man. So the stuff about Tony being Hank Pym and sorta-like Reed Richards (Smartest Guy in the World, Blonde Wife, Bright Daughter) will be a little odd when the OG shows up. There's granted a lot of stuff about the F4 aside from Reed and so on, but initially Reed will be seen as "New Tony Stark" and obviously the F4 will be the overall franchise protagonists once they make their effective debut.

Tony isn't the smartest guy in the world in the MCU, at least that hasn't been stated explicitly. Pepper is (sometimes) a redhead and nothing we've seen about Morgan suggests she is "bright". That seemed to come from some people who wanted her to be the MCU version of Ironheart.

Tony hasn't taken anything from Reed.

[Agent Z]

Under Hickman, the F4 were at the center of Marvel's biggest event in the 2010s - SECRET WARS (2015).

That's not the same thing as being popular.

Avengers are a Tony and Steve short. Just as without Jim Morrison you don't have The Doors even if The Doors continued after him.

This isn't the comics. The Avengers can continue without Tony or Steve on the big screen.

[Arsenal]

Speaking of Strange, I wonder what’s gonna side line Strange that prevents him from helping Peter.

I’m guessing he’ll have to do some wizard stuff off screen to try and restabilize the multiverse.

[KCJ506]

About the Raimi villains coming back, I actually find it bittersweet. On one hand, I love that we'll get to see Dafoe and Molina again because they were perfect casting. On the other, I would prefer if they were new versions from a different universe altogether. I would love to see Dafoe play a sane Green Goblin and Molina to play an egocentric gangster Ock. Even worse, the fact that they're facing MCU Spider-Man probably means we won't ever see GG and Ock in the MCU. In other words, the 616 versions of GG and Ock won't be done in live-action for many years to come, presumably not until the next reboot (whenever that is).

I agree. It's nice that Dafoe's Green Goblin and Molina's Doc Ock are coming back. However I'm disappointed that it looks like there's not gonna be a villain that hasn't been used in Spider-man movie before. I was really hoping for Scorpion to finally appear given Far From Home's mid credit scene and Mac Gargan having already appeared in Homecoming.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Insomniac's Ock, IMO, is Raimi's Ock done right.

Exactly, though design-wise, Ock having Mao Zedong's hairstyle feels like a weird choice but you get used to it.

About the Raimi villains coming back, I actually find it bittersweet. On one hand, I love that we'll get to see Dafoe and Molina again because they were perfect casting. On the other, I would prefer if they were new versions from a different universe altogether. I would love to see Dafoe play a sane Green Goblin and Molina to play an egocentric gangster Ock. Even worse, the fact that they're facing MCU Spider-Man probably means we won't ever see GG and Ock in the MCU. In other words, the 616 versions of GG and Ock won't be done in live-action for many years to come, presumably not until the next reboot (whenever that is).

Right.

But who knows, maybe the MCU have some way of making a swing of it.

I agree. It's nice that Dafoe's Green Goblin and Molina's Doc Ock are coming back. However I'm disappointed that it looks like there's not gonna be a villain that hasn't been used in Spider-man movie before. I was really hoping for Scorpion to finally appear given Far From Home's mid credit scene and Mac Gargan having already appeared in Homecoming.

Maybe he'll show up in Sony's solo movies?

[Frontier]

Does Pete really need the Avengers help to deal with the Sinister Six? When he has the Iron Spider gear?

I also question how much access Pete has to the Avengers other than being friends with Happy ( who can contact War Machine) and knowing where Doc Strange lives.

And besides once you have called in Dr. Strange you shouldn't really need anymore guys.

It looks like Ock trashes the Iron Spider suit .

The only Avenger Peter even really was close to or on a communicative basis was Tony. And judging by Wanda it doesn't seem like the Avengers kept good tabs with each other outside of the team.

Speaking of Strange, I wonder what’s gonna side line Strange that prevents him from helping Peter.

I’m guessing he’ll have to do some wizard stuff off screen to try and restabilize the multiverse.

I think Peter screwing up Strange's plans with the villains and their fight is what sidelines him until the climax.

[Kaitou D. Kid]

I agree. It's nice that Dafoe's Green Goblin and Molina's Doc Ock are coming back. However I'm disappointed that it looks like there's not gonna be a villain that hasn't been used in Spider-man movie before. I was really hoping for Scorpion to finally appear given Far From Home's mid credit scene and Mac Gargan having already appeared in Homecoming.

Speaking of unused villains, if this is really Holland's last film, I wonder what's going to happen with that Venom tease. It's going to be weird if you bring in a new actor or do the crossover with Miles instead of Peter. Venom was triggered by Holland's Peter in that scene.

[Frontier]

Speaking of unused villains, if this is really Holland's last film, I wonder what's going to happen with that Venom tease. It's going to be weird if you bring in a new actor or do the crossover with Miles instead of Peter. Venom was triggered by Holland's Peter in that scene.

I don't think Holland is going to be immediately done. I think he has 2-3 films left in the pipe.

[Master Planner]

It's part of why I don't think Spider-Man 2 Ock is a very good version of Ock. He is essentially a halfway measure between 616 Ock and the Lizard, and I feel like the film can't decide which of those it wants him to be.

Insomniac's Ock, IMO, is Raimi's Ock done right.

About the Raimi villains coming back, I actually find it bittersweet. On one hand, I love that we'll get to see Dafoe and Molina again because they were perfect casting. On the other, I would prefer if they were new versions from a different universe altogether. I would love to see Dafoe play a sane Green Goblin and Molina to play an egocentric gangster Ock. Even worse, the fact that they're facing MCU Spider-Man probably means we won't ever see GG and Ock in the MCU. In other words, the 616 versions of GG and Ock won't be done in live-action for many years to come, presumably not until the next reboot (whenever that is).

I agree with Raimi's Ock. Visually, he is almost perfect and the battles with Spider-Man is such a joy, it's like bringing their conflict from the pages into live action. But, i was never fan of the arms' AI controlling or at least, influencing Otto into villainy. They wanted Lizard but they used Doc Ock and mixed elements. It worked in a way, but it's not an Ock that complements the original comic book version. Insomniacs Ock, on the other hand, is a much better execution and kept 2 basic elements of 616's Ock, his paranoia and jealousy of others.

I agree with what you said about using Raimi's villains and i'll have to add that it's also cheap nostalgia to bring more money and not something new or fresh. Classic Disney tactic.