Page 6 of 25 FirstFirst ... 234567891016 ... LastLast
Results 76 to 90 of 364
  1. #76
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    7,940

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    Homecoming May was definitely better. I love her speech to Peter after he loses the suit. FFH May is a caricature by comparison. I feel FFH doubled down on everything I didn't particularly like in Homecoming.
    She had more to do in Homecoming, mostly because Homecoming has the only section in either of the films where Peter cuts off from Tony Stark, so giving her stuff to do in the process.

    I'm guessing she didn't trigger his spider-sense because Peter doesn't interpret her as a threat. His spider-sense didn't go off when Ned was in his room either. And FFH kinda argues he has to be in a certain mindset to pick up on it (which I also didn't like).
    As long as Peter's fully alert (i.e. not in a state of anger or completely tired), the Spider-Sense should pick up anyone's presence who might discover his identity.

    In the comics, the major instances of people learning Peter's identity by watching him change happens in specific conditions
    -- In the retcon, Mary Jane admitted to seeing Peter rush to his room and leave it as Spider-Man on the night Ben died. Spider-Man hadn't decided to become a superhero, yet, until that point (so doesn't have an identity to defend) and also he's in adrenaline mode looking to find the burglar so he wouldn't pick it up.
    -- The other instance is after fighting Morlun when Peter returns home completely exhausted and May stumbles on his outfit and puts it all together.

    Aside from that the comics have generally been consistent about people not learning his identity by stumbling on to him. Especially the early issues which apparently these movies are trying to mimic (although I doubt anyone read those issues in depth).

    One of the biggest pet peeves I have had with adaptations over the last decade or so and especially the Holland movies is that it makes Spider-Man an incompetent who can't protect his identity. That sucks.

  2. #77
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Jan 2021
    Posts
    280

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Citing a scene that happened on-screen in CAPTAIN AMERICA CIVIL WAR isn't "exaggerating the bad things about him".
    I like how you only acknowledge that, it shows you know the other things you said are exaggerated misrepresentations of what he did.

    Look, either we talk about movies as movies, i.e. filled with scenes, dialogue, visuals, and characterizations or we talk about RDJ's Iron Man, the Instagram-Social Media sensation. I am interested in the former and not the latter. Still if you care only about the latter, that's fine. But the point is you can't do both.

    If you relate, as it seems to me, to these movies and to the cast as social media phenomenons and so on, that's fine. If you are interested in engaging them with movies, then you need to make a case defending stuff as movies, and not accuse other people about disliking stuff (because again this isn't social media).
    I don't even go on social media, so I have no clue what you're talking about, besides the fact it's clear BS you're saying in lieu of a real argument.
    I've only ever talked about the movies, and when someone is clearly biased and misrepresenting what happened in them and what the characters did I will call them on it, so don't accuse me of only caring about social media because you keep doing it.

    The MCU has established Tony Stark consistently as a character with baggage, with issues, who is controversial in-universe.
    Yes he is.
    But the erase the good things he's done nor does it mean someone shouldn't look up to him.

    There's a popular TV Show called WandaVision on streaming right now, and this week gave us a powerful disturbing scene reminding us the consequences and horror of Tony Stark's arms dealing and who suffered while he spent the first 40 years of his life d--king around with his life.
    No it didn't, it showed the consequences of Stane dealing weapons behind Tony's back, Tony only ever sold his weapons to the US government, the only way for for them to have gotten to Sokovia is for them to have been sold illegally behind his back, you're proving my exact point you're misrepresenting Tony's actions and history to make him look worse when this is something that was the fault of someone else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    Homecoming May was definitely better. I love her speech to Peter after he loses the suit. FFH May is a caricature by comparison. I feel FFH doubled down on everything I didn't particularly like in Homecoming.
    Yes helping run a homeless shelter and being encouraging to her nephew is definitely being a caricature.
    I'm guessing she didn't trigger his spider-sense because Peter doesn't interpret her as a threat. His spider-sense didn't go off when Ned was in his room either. And FFH kinda argues he has to be in a certain mindset to pick up on it (which I also didn't like).
    No it doesn't, it argues that Peter needs to trust his instincts more and stop doubting himself.
    Last edited by Jewel Runner; 02-27-2021 at 05:12 AM.

  3. #78
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    7,940

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jewel Runner View Post
    But the erase the good things he's done nor does it mean someone shouldn't look up to him.
    The good things don't wash out the bad things.

    No it didn't, it showed the consequences of Stane dealing weapons behind Tony's back,
    Cool fanfiction but it's not mentioned in the movies, not even once, that it was Stane who sold weapons to Sokovia.

    Tony only ever sold his weapons to the US government,
    Tony did sell weapons to non-US agents. Ulysses Klaue talks about meeting Tony in the past under those circumstances in AGE OF ULTRON.

    More importantly in that same movie, Tony tracks down Ultron by going over and investigating his own past, and he never denies or passes the buck about those weapons in that film.

    Listen...if your point is that the good Tony did made up for all the bad things he did, that point is arguable but at least it's starting from a valid basis in reality. If you are outright saying he didn't sell weapons or wasn't responsible for selling weapons to factions in Sokovia, then you are simply denying he was every culpable to start with and you are simply ignoring the movies we have for stuff that exists in your mind.

  4. #79
    Incredible Member
    Join Date
    May 2020
    Posts
    710

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jewel Runner View Post
    Yes helping run a homeless shelter and being encouraging to her nephew is definitely being a caricature.
    That would be fine if the movie didn't treat the shelter part as superfluous, but we never spend enough time with May for it to not feel like a technical detail.

    Also, May's support for Peter as Spider-Man is pretty one-dimensional and borderline irresponsible for her to blindly embrace like that as his parent figure. May has been supportive of Peter's activities as Spider-Man in both the Amazing and Ultimate comics, but her feelings were always more nuanced. You do realize people with friends and family members in the police force show more concern for their loved ones than May does towards Peter being Spider-Man.

    No it doesn't, it argues that Peter needs to trust his instincts more and stop doubting himself.
    You technically need to be in a certain mindset to trust your instincts and to not have doubts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    One of the biggest pet peeves I have had with adaptations over the last decade or so and especially the Holland movies is that it makes Spider-Man an incompetent who can't protect his identity. That sucks.
    MCU Spider-Man is probably the worst perpetrator of this. While I always hated Bendis' stance on secret identities, at least his Peter tried his best to maintain one. MCU Peter on the other hand walks in bars in full costume minus the mask.
    Last edited by Kaitou D. Kid; 02-27-2021 at 08:41 AM.

  5. #80
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    7,940

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    MCU Spider-Man is probably the worst perpetrator of this. While I always hated Bendis' stance on secret identities, at least his Peter tried his best to maintain one. MCU Peter on the other hand walks in bars in full costume minus the mask.
    That scene with him and Mysterio walking maskless in a bar of patrons was the worst offender by far.

    That's why I disliked the FFH post-credits where his identity gets exposed...I mean what's the point if you do whole movies where everyone around him knows his identity, he makes no effort to keep it secret and there aren't stakes at exposing it anyway.

  6. #81
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Jan 2021
    Posts
    280

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The good things don't wash out the bad things.
    And despite how you keep trying to make it out as, the reverse isn't anymore true.
    Cool fanfiction but it's not mentioned in the movies, not even once, that it was Stane who sold weapons to Sokovia.
    It's a logical inference, Tony didn't sell his weapons to terrorists, so he definitely wasn't helping fuel a civil conflict in a backwater European country if no reason other than bad PR but who would do that?
    Stane, who was selling weapons illegally, under the radar and doesn't care.
    Tony did sell weapons to non-US agents. Ulysses Klaue talks about meeting Tony in the past under those circumstances in AGE OF ULTRON.
    They met at conventions, something specifically stated in the movie.
    More importantly in that same movie, Tony tracks down Ultron by going over and investigating his own past, and he never denies or passes the buck about those weapons in that film.
    When did Tony ever have the opportunity to even do that?
    And if you paid to his character, that's not something he'd regardless of his actual culpability.
    Listen...if your point is that the good Tony did made up for all the bad things he did, that point is arguable but at least it's starting from a valid basis in reality.
    If you paid any sort of attention to what I'm saying, all I've said here is looking at the things Tony has done, it's not problematic for someone to look up to him, despite how you keep acting like it's unimaginable.
    Tony's done bad things, he's also done a lot of good, so excuse me iif I think looking up to a guy who's helped stopped Invasions isn't very questionable
    If you are outright saying he didn't sell weapons or wasn't responsible for selling weapons to factions in Sokovia, then you are simply denying he was every culpable to start with and you are simply ignoring the movies we have for stuff that exists in your mind.
    When you've done nothing but constantly misrepresent what the characters have done and what has happened don't talk to me about things only existing in my head.

  7. #82
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    7,940

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jewel Runner View Post
    They met at conventions, something specifically stated in the movie.
    Why would Tony be at a convention with a rather notorious weapons salesman, if not to sell weapons to him?

    If you paid any sort of attention to what I'm saying,
    I much rather pay attention to the movies.

    ...it's not problematic for someone to look up to him, despite how you keep acting like it's unimaginable.
    For someone like Peter Parker to look up to Tony, uncritically, would be out of character for the versions in the comics. I mean in the original Civil War story, Peter ultimately broke from Tony and then kicked Iron Man's ass in a fight. We never got to see the relationship reach that point. Eventually Peter took Cap's side in the CIVIL WAR.

    Tony's done bad things, he's also done a lot of good, so excuse me iif I think looking up to a guy who's helped stopped Invasions isn't very questionable
    Helping stop invasions isn't a morality carwash in the MCU.
    -- Black Widow in Winter Soldier had to go to a commitee hearing to respond to her past as an assassin being leaked out.
    -- Hulk is still a fugitive on the run despite being a hero who stopped the Chitauri.
    -- The entire Sokovia Accords makes prisoners and fugitives of people who were heroes.

    If these characters don't get a pass, why should Iron Man?

  8. #83
    Mighty Member Jman27's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Posts
    1,739

    Default

    good things dont wash the bad? in what context
    "He's pure power and doesn't even know it. He's the best of us."-Matt Murdock

    "I need a reason to take the mask off."-Peter Parker

  9. #84
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    7,940

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jman27 View Post
    good things dont wash the bad? in what context
    In the context of real life for one thing. There's no such thing as a simple case of redemption and absolution in real life.

    In the fictional context of the MCU based on what we see in the movies and sequels, Tony Stark doesn't have a simple redemption story. Every movie, every Avengers movie has him constantly confronting the consequences of his past which rebound not on him but on other characters. They mine that beat time and time again, and now you might have issues with them doing that constantly (and I agree that it's annoying) but the fact is that the constant banging of that beat makes it impossible to buy uncritically the idea of MCU Tony as having achieved lasting redemption of any kind.

    I mean in the case of MCU Spider-Man, a good part of his life is dealing with Tony Stark's messes. Vulture exists because Tony Stark's negligence led to a guy with no criminal record getting radicalized into supervillainy. In the case of Mysterio, he plagiarized his work and passed it off as his own, in addition to the massive numbers of Stark personnel working for Mysterio which suggests a long history of terrible hiring practises or a failure to properly handly highly skilled personnel from getting radicalized. Because of negligence, because of incompetence, indifference, and stupidity, Tony constantly creates a slew of messes and problems.

  10. #85
    World's Greatest Hero blackspidey2099's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Posts
    1,177

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SpiderClops View Post
    You're allowed to dislike this version of Spider-Man and the franchise. But saying that it is a failure is straight up denying facts.
    It might not a financial failure, but it 100% is a failure as a Spider-Man adaptation and as an artistic product in general.
    "Anyone can win a fight when the odds are easy! It's when the going's tough - when there seems to be no chance - that's when it counts!" - Spider-Man

  11. #86
    Amazing Member cam18's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2021
    Posts
    63

    Default

    MCU spiderman...........can't say I love or honestly even like this interpretation BUT.........hopefully it gets better but sometimes I wish Sony using heavy inspiration from the guys that did the PS4 Spiderman game had there own SpiderMan in there universe while the MCU rocked with what they have now with Holland and let the fans decide which one truly felt like Spidey.

  12. #87
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    64,182

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    In the context of real life for one thing. There's no such thing as a simple case of redemption and absolution in real life.

    In the fictional context of the MCU based on what we see in the movies and sequels, Tony Stark doesn't have a simple redemption story. Every movie, every Avengers movie has him constantly confronting the consequences of his past which rebound not on him but on other characters. They mine that beat time and time again, and now you might have issues with them doing that constantly (and I agree that it's annoying) but the fact is that the constant banging of that beat makes it impossible to buy uncritically the idea of MCU Tony as having achieved lasting redemption of any kind.

    I mean in the case of MCU Spider-Man, a good part of his life is dealing with Tony Stark's messes. Vulture exists because Tony Stark's negligence led to a guy with no criminal record getting radicalized into supervillainy. In the case of Mysterio, he plagiarized his work and passed it off as his own, in addition to the massive numbers of Stark personnel working for Mysterio which suggests a long history of terrible hiring practises or a failure to properly handly highly skilled personnel from getting radicalized. Because of negligence, because of incompetence, indifference, and stupidity, Tony constantly creates a slew of messes and problems.
    But he helped save the universe and a whole host of people...so maybe that cleans his ledger a little ?

  13. #88
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    7,940

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    But he helped save the universe and a whole host of people...so maybe that cleans his ledger a little ?
    Stalin helped save the world from Hitler, did that clean up his ledger? Did the British Empire fighting the Nazis make up for the centuries of slavery and colonization? Or the fact that it was Jim Crow America that went to war against a racist regime excuse the former?

    The Infinity War and Thanos would have the same status in the MCU that the fight against Hitler has in our world. And you can extrapolate the real world issues with the fact that the last good war was in fact waged by three regimes that were basically just a few degrees better than the Nazis but not truly good in any larger sense and apply that to the Avengers, who would be seen as pretty shady and dodgy types, especially Stark.

    Let's not forget that Tony Stark backing the Sokovia accords and his terrible handling of that situation broke up the Avengers for a year or more dividing them enough that they couldn't co-ordinate a proper response against Thanos in Infinity War. Rhodey in his first scenes in IW straight up admits that the Accords were a mistake. Would Thanos have won anyway, probably but without the team divided, obviously they weren't able to co-ordinate tactically. Scarlet Witch with her powers alone would have been enough to defeat Thanos and instead of helping her, Tony locked her up, fenced her in, offered no real help or guidance, drove her to become a fugitive. The whole decimation could have been avoided.

  14. #89
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    27,245

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    She had more to do in Homecoming, mostly because Homecoming has the only section in either of the films where Peter cuts off from Tony Stark, so giving her stuff to do in the process.



    As long as Peter's fully alert (i.e. not in a state of anger or completely tired), the Spider-Sense should pick up anyone's presence who might discover his identity.

    In the comics, the major instances of people learning Peter's identity by watching him change happens in specific conditions
    -- In the retcon, Mary Jane admitted to seeing Peter rush to his room and leave it as Spider-Man on the night Ben died. Spider-Man hadn't decided to become a superhero, yet, until that point (so doesn't have an identity to defend) and also he's in adrenaline mode looking to find the burglar so he wouldn't pick it up.
    -- The other instance is after fighting Morlun when Peter returns home completely exhausted and May stumbles on his outfit and puts it all together.

    Aside from that the comics have generally been consistent about people not learning his identity by stumbling on to him. Especially the early issues which apparently these movies are trying to mimic (although I doubt anyone read those issues in depth).

    One of the biggest pet peeves I have had with adaptations over the last decade or so and especially the Holland movies is that it makes Spider-Man an incompetent who can't protect his identity. That sucks.
    The number of people who know his identity isn't that large. Marvel never put that much stock in secret identities anyway and the days of keeping such a secret from loved ones is long past. It's not about incompetence (Holland is far from an idiot) it's about adapting to modern standards.

  15. #90
    Peter Scott SpiderClops's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Posts
    7,451

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by blackspidey2099 View Post
    It might not a financial failure, but it 100% is a failure as a Spider-Man adaptation and as an artistic product in general.
    By most critics and fan reactions, no it isn't.

    You're letting your personal preference skew your worldview.

    YOU don't like this Spider-Man. Which, again, is fine. But you'remaking a general statement that this is somehow a bad adaptation, which could not be further from the truth by general consensus.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •