Spider-Man 3: No Way Home

[Revolutionary_Jack]

About that Otto Octavius joke... every live reaction I saw had people going crazy when Otto said his name, while the characters are laughing.

The crowd goes wild, Peter and Co. laugh, and the crowd goes silent.

That's... awkward.

Here's the link for all to see.



It's genuinely hilarious to see a joke fall flat.

I mean the annoying thing is seeing so many people bend backwards to defend writing that is so clearly bad. Deep down the so-called hardcore MCU fans aren't any different from Zack Snyder fans, the same thin skin, the same self-satisfied cleverness and so on.

Didn't realize that before, but now that reminded me of Metal Gear Solid 2's trailers, where they put Snake in locations he isn't part of in the final game, all to hide the fact that Snake is not the protagonist.

In that case, the game was intentionally made to troll the audience and the creator is a genuine troll.

But yeah, it's ultimately fantasy, stuff that would kill people in real life hardly injures fictional characters that badly, even in non super-hero places lol.

This was part of the stuff that Watchmen dealt with, acknowledging the reality of violence, and what living a life of violence would do to you mentally, which the comics repress as a rule or can never own up to honestly. Stories like Batman and Daredevil occassionally make token acknowledgements but it's all part of how brooding about "the moral ambiguity of your actions" (to quote Nic Cage's Spider-Man Noir from ITSV) makes you cool.

I had forgotten how shit MCU humor is, that moment on the trailer made me groan out loud in annoyance lol.

The MCU's humor is still stuck to the mid-2000s. That is to say, the Joss Whedon era. Time has passed and you have more up to date kind of humor and writing, stuff like Succession, or Rick and Morty, or if we are referring to comics, Bendis has come and gone, and we now have Kieron Gillen, Nick Spencer, among others.

The thing that baffles me about CBM is that you have comic book writers with such good dialogue (Gerry Conway in his '70s Spider-Man run, Michelinie in his run, JMS in ASM, Matt Fraction in his Sensational Annual) and yet they don't adapt the dialogue from the comics or get some of that dialogue there. They don't get Kieron Gillen or Chip Zdarsky (also a good ear for dialogue) or Nick Spencer. I mean Nick Spencer is a very good writer of dialogue. Superior Foes of Spider-Man is genuinely funny and it's humor isn't meta-snarkery, and this also applies to the early part of his Spider-Man run and even when the run was weak, his dialogue was always good to decent.

I put together a list of great lines from 616 Spider-Man here, and the dialogue excerpts there is of a higher quality than anything we see in the movies.
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Quotes/SpiderMan

[Frontier]

I've seen people speculate they cut the trailer in such a way that the "Scooby Gang" isn't actually laughing at Otto saying his name but something else.

[Scott Taylor]

It was gravity and kinetic energy that killed Ra's. Not Batman.

Harry Leland and Sebastian Shaw now have their courtroom defense worked out - "because Batman!"

[CrimsonEchidna]

So Tom Holland had an interview with GQ and:

Holland has spent six years as Spider-Man. If he chooses to, he could easily do another 20. He is still two decades younger than Robert Downey Jr. was in Iron Man.

“I’ve talked to him about doing, like, 100 more,” Pascal tells me. “I’m never going to make Spider-Man movies without him. Are you kidding me?”

Holland, however, isn’t so sure. “Maybe it is time for me to move on. Maybe what’s best for Spider-Man is that they do a Miles Morales film. I have to take Peter Parker into account as well, because he is an important part of my life,” he says. But also: “If I’m playing Spider-Man after I’m 30, I’ve done something wrong.”

Not taking this literally, but I think the Studio execs truly underestimate how much burnout is a true thing on the actors. From the outside it's easy to say "you make so much money, why not just keep playing the character" but between the long shoots, maintain fitness for the role, all the mandatory travel. It has to be taxing both physically and mentally. It's why I always was skeptical that Disney was obsessed with casting someone young because it would mean they would stick around for the long haul. The problem with that is the burnout. Like it's not a coincidence despite RDJ getting paid an absurd amount he straight up refused to do anymore solo-Iron Man films.

I do think Holland is sticking around for the long haul for Phase 4, but I see him wanting to step into the background after.

[PizzaTime2099]

I put together a list of great lines from 616 Spider-Man here, and the dialogue excerpts there is of a higher quality than anything we see in the movies.
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Quotes/SpiderMan

Eh, not to say the writing in the movies is all that great, but there's a big difference in how dialogue comes across on the page and on the screen. I don't think a lot of these lines would come across nearly as strongly if they were coming out of an actors mouth.

As Harrison Ford once said, "You can type this shit, but you can't say it!"

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Harry Leland and Sebastian Shaw now have their courtroom defense worked out - "because Batman!"

That won't save them from Krakoan justice. They were formed to solve loopholes like this.

I've seen people speculate they cut the trailer in such a way that the "Scooby Gang" isn't actually laughing at Otto saying his name but something else.

Hopefully the actual movie cuts the bit out, hopefully it's something else but that doesn't excuse the trailer still centered its gag on this punchline which is intended to be funny and intended for the audience to get on board at once, and quite spectacularly the joke fell flat, visibly and obviously.

It's several pages from the last time, so if my ol' pal Hypno can forgive me, let's listen to the words of wisdom from Jerry Robinson's creation, Robinson who was mentor to Steve Ditko:

[Hypestyle]

Specially since the first trailer has Peter changing his mind and telling him to stop, meaning that Strange didn't really explain what the spell was doing and decided to keep going with it despite the one who requested asking him to stop... And that's somehow Peter's fault lol.



Well, he created less super-villains so far, so I guess he is better than Tony by managing that much .





(ASM#122)

Clone enough lol.



I mean, it's the only way to get a mix of OMIT and Spider-Verse, can't worry about proper characterization if you're doing that .

magic is tricky. sometimes its best to be quiet. Otherwise.. Shuma Gorath, or some such.. this is why only comparatively few people on Earth are allowed to be sorcerors. Mordo's methods aren't good, but his premise isn't completely wrong.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Not taking this literally, but I think the Studio execs truly underestimate how much burnout is a true thing on the actors. From the outside it's easy to say "you make so much money, why not just keep playing the character" but between the long shoots, maintain fitness for the role, all the mandatory travel.

Well Tom Holland is actually not making as much money from playing Spider-Man as Tobey Maguire did, and nowhere near the money Robert Downey Jr. made, obviously. The principal thing with casting a young unknown British actor as Spider-Man is that they are so grateful for the "big break" and so on that they can get them from a lower salary than their American counterparts who tend to be savvier and have more leverage.

That interview has Holland admitting that he's worried about his future as a leading man and being typecast as Spider-Man, or that version of Spider-Man at least.

It has to be taxing both physically and mentally.

The promotion and constant fan-engagement would certainly be tiring. That actually is a big part of the MCU actor deal it seems. Constantly being asked endless questions about a character or performance that's on the whole not so deep to actually supply that many answers. But the actual performance? I mean this isn't Leonardo DiCaprio in the actual frozen wilds as far as performance demands goes on a technical level.

Eh, not to say the writing in the movies is all that great, but there's a big difference in how dialogue comes across on the page and on the screen.

That's true enough. Obviously you can doctor it and touch it up if needed but at the least the basis of dialogue needs to be solid where a lof of the times the MCU movies have dialogue that has no basis and is just by the numbers. A lot of the movie dialogue lacks the basis.

As Harrison Ford once said, "You can type this shit, but you can't say it!"

That quote is misunderstood and quite out of context to be honest. It doesn't really mean what people assume.

[Kaitou D. Kid]

So Tom Holland had an interview with GQ and:



Not taking this literally, but I think the Studio execs truly underestimate how much burnout is a true thing on the actors. From the outside it's easy to say "you make so much money, why not just keep playing the character" but between the long shoots, maintain fitness for the role, all the mandatory travel. It has to be taxing both physically and mentally. It's why I always was skeptical that Disney was obsessed with casting someone young because it would mean they would stick around for the long haul. The problem with that is the burnout. Like it's not a coincidence despite RDJ getting paid an absurd amount he straight up refused to do anymore solo-Iron Man films.

I do think Holland is sticking around for the long haul for Phase 4, but I see him wanting to step into the background after.

The guy did 5 films as Spider-Man in the span of 4 years, then another one two years later. I don't blame him. At all.

[Username taken]

The guy did 5 films as Spider-Man in the span of 4 years, then another one two years later. I don't blame him. At all.

Exactly.

I was wondering exactly what Holland was talking about but then I remembered that he appeared in Civil War, Infinity War and Endgame in addition to the Spider-man movies.

That's A LOT for such a short period of time.

[Webhead]

I mean the annoying thing is seeing so many people bend backwards to defend writing that is so clearly bad. Deep down the so-called hardcore MCU fans aren't any different from Zack Snyder fans, the same thin skin, the same self-satisfied cleverness and so on.

Okay I'll bite since I was in this conversation pages ago.

I didn't think it was a great joke (MCU humor is pretty dumb and if one's to be entertained they have to be in a "dumb humor" mindset), just pointed out that it wasn't callous, offensive or anything like that.

Plus, it's not that knowledge of Latin roots of words is that obscure. As a Spanish speaker it's pretty obvious, and they market this stuff for international audiences too.

[Ravin' Ray]

Plus, it's not that knowledge of Latin roots of words is that obscure. As a Spanish speaker it's pretty obvious, and they market this stuff for international audiences too.

You have to wonder how the joke will work in foreign language dubs.

[Webhead]

You have to wonder how the joke will work in foreign language dubs.

Besides likely being nonsense for Latin-removed languages, guess it depends on whether they call Ock by the original name.

I only recall a really old dub, maybe the Amazing Friends one, calling Ock "Doctor Pulpo". He's much more known by the original English name in these parts.

[Lukmendes]

I think it's more than that. Remember how I said this Spider-Man (and the people working on him) are out of touch with everyday people and have elitist undertones?

I mean, you can see it strikingly clear in that crowd reaction.

That sounds vaguely familiar.

My usual assumption for this kind of humor is just, people who think lampshade hanging itself is a joke, so you can be lazy about it.

Hell, in Raimi's Spider-Man 2, JJ makes a similar joke, but JJ is a known asshole so that works for him, having everyone laughing at Otto's face like that, urgh...

Here's the link for all to see.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoEEHl-Zxvo

It's genuinely hilarious to see a joke fall flat.

Funnier than the joke they made for sure...

Also funny how they didn't react to "Scooby-Doo this crap" either lol.

I mean the annoying thing is seeing so many people bend backwards to defend writing that is so clearly bad. Deep down the so-called hardcore MCU fans aren't any different from Zack Snyder fans, the same thin skin, the same self-satisfied cleverness and so on.

For sure lol.

In that case, the game was intentionally made to troll the audience and the creator is a genuine troll.

Doesn't make the bullshit he pulled any better.

This was part of the stuff that Watchmen dealt with, acknowledging the reality of violence, and what living a life of violence would do to you mentally, which the comics repress as a rule or can never own up to honestly. Stories like Batman and Daredevil occassionally make token acknowledgements but it's all part of how brooding about "the moral ambiguity of your actions" (to quote Nic Cage's Spider-Man Noir from ITSV) makes you cool.

Well, Watchmen is ultimately a different take 'cause Alan Moore loves his deconstructions, but super-heroes at the end of the day are childish fantasies in almost all stories, no matter how "mature" they go for, "realism" is only used as a suggestion if the story cares about going for it.

So yeah, being a vigilante in real life? Scary, dangerous, backwards, violent and whatever, but being a vigilante in a super-hero comic? Fucking awesome, unless you're Spider-Man, or Daredevil, or a DC character when DiDio has his way...

The MCU's humor is still stuck to the mid-2000s. That is to say, the Joss Whedon era. Time has passed and you have more up to date kind of humor and writing, stuff like Succession, or Rick and Morty, or if we are referring to comics, Bendis has come and gone, and we now have Kieron Gillen, Nick Spencer, among others.

The problem isn't just being stuck in that era, because we had legit good snarky one liners back then, the problem is that MCU's dialogue reads someone who doesn't understand humor, or young people, trying to make youthful humor, it's someone trying to copy that specific idea and doesn't know how to make it work, like learning that you need to use eggs to make a cake, using only eggs and wondering why it doesn't taste like chocolate.

So basically, MCU humor is this popular scene, that I'm pretty sure was used many times to describe MCU's humor:

The thing that baffles me about CBM is that you have comic book writers with such good dialogue (Gerry Conway in his '70s Spider-Man run, Michelinie in his run, JMS in ASM, Matt Fraction in his Sensational Annual) and yet they don't adapt the dialogue from the comics or get some of that dialogue there. They don't get Kieron Gillen or Chip Zdarsky (also a good ear for dialogue) or Nick Spencer. I mean Nick Spencer is a very good writer of dialogue. Superior Foes of Spider-Man is genuinely funny and it's humor isn't meta-snarkery, and this also applies to the early part of his Spider-Man run and even when the run was weak, his dialogue was always good to decent.

Not sure about Spencer when it comes to humor, what I saw of Superior Foes' humor was exactly what made me decide to not read it.

He is really good when it comes to character moments though, when they talk about their motivations and whatnot, they always feels sincere, even more so if you know the character's story, and that's good writing.

Then again, thinking of it, in ASM, he really did get JJ's voice and he was amusing most times, so I guess whatever I saw in Superior Foes, might've been his weaker stuff.

I put together a list of great lines from 616 Spider-Man here, and the dialogue excerpts there is of a higher quality than anything we see in the movies.
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Quotes/SpiderMan

Hah, so you do write stuff in TV tropes, reminds me that I did get the feeling when reading a few of the tropes in Ditko's ASM article that it sounded like your writing style.

magic is tricky. sometimes its best to be quiet. Otherwise.. Shuma Gorath, or some such.. this is why only comparatively few people on Earth are allowed to be sorcerors. Mordo's methods aren't good, but his premise isn't completely wrong.

I mean, sure, if we get actually dialogue saying "Hey, we the spell can't be interrupted once started", then it'd be less bad, but if it's like that, then we have the huge problem that, either Strange didn't properly explain what the spell is actually doing, or Peter is too much of a dumb fuck to understand what the spell would do, either way at least one of them looks like an idiot.

The guy did 5 films as Spider-Man in the span of 4 years, then another one two years later. I don't blame him. At all.

Damn, putting it like that, yeah, must be rough lol.

Okay I'll bite since I was in this conversation pages ago.

I didn't think it was a great joke (MCU humor is pretty dumb and if one's to be entertained they have to be in a "dumb humor" mindset), just pointed out that it wasn't callous, offensive or anything like that.

Plus, it's not that knowledge of Latin roots of words is that obscure. As a Spanish speaker it's pretty obvious, and they market this stuff for international audiences too.

What are you even saying? That MCU writes the jokes while thinking on how it can sound in other languages? Because that would be a hilariously dumb decision.

[PizzaTime2099]

You have to wonder how the joke will work in foreign language dubs.

Well it will probably land pretty similarly in most countries, the basis for the word is still almost always there. Sometime it will probably land even better, others, not so much. I wonder if they would rewrite jokes like that in countries where there's no connection, like how they localized a joke in Inside Out, where they replaced bell peppers for broccoli in Japan, because that's what kids find gross there.

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