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  1. #61
    Spectacular Member the COMET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    I can certainly see how many would view DC's roster, or superheroes in general, as very old fashioned. Most of them are, after all, half a century old or older. They are largely the products of white men who were often Jewish and living in NYC. These characters are shaped by their experiences growing up through the Great Depression, WW2, and the Cold War looking to make a buck from children with disposable entertainment. As a result, the characters reflect the anxieties, preoccupations, and prejudices of their times, so superheroes are overflowing with rich playboys, scientists, test pilots, spies and soldiers fighting a never-ending battle against villains that almost always evoke the Nazis.

    However, does that mean these are characters that we need to move on from in favor of newer, fresher characters that better reflect the diversity of our culture? I can certainly see that argument. It's undeniable that the adventures of straight white men have dominated the superhero market for decades to diminishing returns, particularly once the Baby Boomers fully took the creative reigns and the superhero genre became more and more focused upon itself rather than trying to reach out to newer audiences.

    This inward looking aspect of the superhero readership has also made it increasingly difficult to introduce new characters because the dwindling readership, forever obsessed with the old characters and comics they'd first fallen in love with as kids, frequently aren't interested in reading anything that isn't a retelling, reimagining, recontextualization, or continuation of those old comics.

    So, with not enough readers to showcase both the old characters and the new, what should DC do? Didio's 5G plan of aging out the older heroes in favor of replacing them with the next generation clearly wasn't something DC's current corporate overlords felt was going to work.

    I don't think there's a solution that's going to please everyone. There are simply too many great characters available to DC and not enough readers to justify giving them all time to shine. Choices are going to have to be made and there are going to be fans of certain characters left out in the cold, which will inevitably lead to resentment, bickering, and the usual nonsense.

    In the end, there's very few characters that DC has that I would call outdated. Time and time again, great creators have shown that any character can be tweaked or shown in a new light that makes them just as relevant today as they were when they were first created. All it takes is the right creators who are able to make that character feel new again.

    What do you think?
    Ok, there are some issues here. First i don't see the creators as white men, they are men, humans. Like you, me and everyone else on the planet. They created characters and stories and people liked them then and still like them now.

    Then you tried to paint the creators as villains "looking to make a buck from children with disposable entertainment". They were artists trying to make a living out of their craft worrying on providing good entertainment to kids, adults, anyone who wants to buy their comics.
    If the content was so disposable as you say, it wouldn't be a success and the characters still relevant and loved today, nearly a Century later...

    Even if all changes you said were applied and a child buy this new 'updated to current times' comics, that would make the new creators child explorers? No, right?
    So no, comics creators and sellers were never child explorers. Instead they were providing them entertainment, escapism that's so valuable specially in bad times such as war times, so people can try to keep their sanity and forget about their real life problems (instead of having their entertainment throwing them said real life problems tormenting them without rest).

    As for having new audience, I'm all for it. But if you're trying to sell a product, it's for the people who wants to buy that product. If you twist and change the product to try to appeal to people who were not interested in the first place, you might still not be able to sell to them and you risk losing all the people who were buying before you changed the product, because now it's something too different than what they liked in the first place.

    So my advice is all people who feel comics should be more accurate with the times and all that, get together and create your own Brand and sell comics exact the way you want them to be. This would be a great adventure!
    Better than taking advantage of an already stablished brand like DC and it's beloved characters, trying to twist them to becoming something else only to fulfill your selfish needs.

    Much love.
    Last edited by the COMET; 02-25-2021 at 09:01 AM.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Hmm...the characters themselves aren't dated, but Superman's and Batman's sense of fashion feels very, very dated every time artists continue to draw them wearing trunks or bring back the trunks.
    I agree completely.

    Others won't.

  3. #63
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Ok, there are some issues here. First i don't see the creators as white men, they are men, humans. Like you, me and everyone else on the planet. They created characters and stories and people liked them then and still like them now.
    You may not see them that way, but they were white men. And the American experience (because these are overwhelmingly an American product aimed at American audiences, historically), both then and now, but especially then was very different for men and women, for white and minority people. They also created characters chiefly for white little boys - comics were meant to appeal to children for the bulk of the superhero era when the older characters were created, superhero comics particularly appealed to boys, and white ones were not only the vast majority, but the ones more likely to have spending money. It was a logical market to appeal to.

    We have a very "white is default" mentality in the US, and moreso then. I mean, you didn't even see black minor characters very often in old comics unless there was a particular reason for them to be black (usually criminal, menial worker, or uneducated comic relief) until maybe the late 60s. They were just very absent in the entire medium. And in other mediums/genres, too, of course. We, as a society, still default that way. A program/movie/book is 90% white people, and it's just a tv show/movie/book. 90% black people and it's a tv/movie/book show for black people. I mean, obviously exceptions apply, but as a general rule. Definite bias there.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 02-25-2021 at 09:19 AM.

  4. #64
    Extraordinary Member j9ac9k's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the COMET View Post
    Ok, there are some issues here. First i don't see the creators as white men, they are men, humans. Like you, me and everyone else on the planet. They created characters and stories and people liked them then and still like them now.
    Regardless of how you want to see them, they were indeed white men selling a product aimed at mostly white audiences. Pretending to not see color is to deny any reality outside of your own viewpoint.

    Quote Originally Posted by the COMET View Post
    Then you tried to paint the creators as villains "looking to make a buck from children with disposable entertainment". They were artists trying to make a living out of their craft worrying on providing good entertainment to kids, adults, anyone who wants to buy their comics.
    If the content was so disposable as you say, it wouldn't be a success and the characters still relevant and loved today, nearly a Century later...
    Not to put words in Bored's mouth, but I think he was saying how the publishers were creating ephemera that wasn't intended to stand the test of time. It doesn't make them villains, it's just what the industry was at the time. They lasted because of the audience - and some of the more ambitious creators, but from what I've read, the publishers were just looking to turn a quick dime, not create a new modern mythology.

    Quote Originally Posted by the COMET View Post
    So my advice is all people who feel comics should be more accurate with the times and all that, get together and create your own Brand and sell comics exact the way you want them to be. This would be a great adventure!
    Better than taking advantage of an already stablished brand like DC and it's beloved characters, trying to twist them to becoming something else only to fulfill your selfish needs.
    Characters have been updated all along - due to the sliding timescale and simply trying to seem relevant to the present day. Were they being "twisted" to become something else? Do you feel the same about the introduction of Barry and Hal as Flash and Green Lantern? Should Jimmy Olsen never use a digital camera? Or is there some other kind of change or "twisting" you're referring to that's less acceptable than others changes perhaps? It's funny how other people appear "selfish" when it boils down to "I want what I want" which is valid as a consumer, but it's just as valid as what some other consumer might want. (and the most "selfish" is the company looking to sell their products. Despite the hype, their main concern is the bottom line - their success rate varies, but that's the real reason any of these changes happen.)
    Last edited by j9ac9k; 02-25-2021 at 09:35 AM.

  5. #65
    Astonishing Member BatmanJones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny View Post
    It's funny, I remember as a kid stumbling upon that goofy Night Man TV show and how odd it was that he was a saxophonist in his everyday life. To this day I don't think there are rarely any musician superheroes. I guess Black Canary is now, but who else.
    I miss the Great Frog and also Mal Duncanís horn playing. It was nice to see both in Other History after decades without mention. Everything about Other History has been terrific.

  6. #66
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    I find it kind of silly to say any super-hero fashions are out-dated. When were they ever in-dated? Unless it's a character like Jack Knight--his outfits were the fashion of the period--but then if you're reading about Jack Knight (who is retired now), then you're reading the 1990s stories, so his clothes suit the period. But the Flash isn't wearing clothes off the Paris runway--the whole point of super-hero costumes for most characters is that they're outlandish. Sometimes they are retro--a lot of the 1940s villains were wearing clothes off the rack in 1902--I wonder what that's all about. But essentially costumes are not of a date. If they look weird that's because they are weird. I realize there's this idea that costumes have to be functional--Batman has to wear functional armour now. But really the guy is dressing up like a giant bat--realism should be the last thing on his mind.
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  7. #67
    Astonishing Member mathew101281's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny View Post
    Any kind of wealthy playboy or scientist type character are kind of starting to feel a bit outdated for me because it feels like there's too many of them. There are not that many fighter pilots in comics(I think), but I believe the brilliant inventor type who's also the heir of a vast fortune and irresistible to women is just kind of losing its luster.
    The only reason the rich playboy archetype is a thing is because it gives an in universe reason why a non powered hero has access to so much crime fighting equipment. Itís also the reason why there are so many government backed superheroes.

  8. #68
    Astonishing Member BatmanJones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the COMET View Post
    Ok, there are some issues here. First i don't see the creators as white men, they are men, humans. Like you, me and everyone else on the planet.
    Don't see color, huh? Now that's outdated.

  9. #69
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BatmanJones View Post
    Don't see color, huh? Now that's outdated.
    If the world didn't see color, it'd be fine not to see color. The world does. That's reality. People say they don't see color, and that's a problem because when you don't see color, you don't see that the occasions when minorities are consistently not hired, not promoted, offered lower pay, fewer and smaller raises, less prestigious jobs, etc. But because "you don't see color", you don't see the discrimination. It must be coincidence that it's mostly white folks at the head of the companies, offered plum jobs and bigger paychecks. Or else those people that didn't get them must just not have worked hard or well enough. Don't see the higher sentences for the same crimes, the higher rates of being pulled, etc. It's too often an excuse for willful blindness to ignore the realities of discrimination. Other times it's even be sincere and truthful, but still blinds a person to discrimination.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 02-25-2021 at 04:44 PM.

  10. #70
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    I find it kind of silly to say any super-hero fashions are out-dated. When were they ever in-dated? Unless it's a character like Jack Knight--his outfits were the fashion of the period--but then if you're reading about Jack Knight (who is retired now), then you're reading the 1990s stories, so his clothes suit the period. But the Flash isn't wearing clothes off the Paris runway--the whole point of super-hero costumes for most characters is that they're outlandish. Sometimes they are retro--a lot of the 1940s villains were wearing clothes off the rack in 1902--I wonder what that's all about. But essentially costumes are not of a date. If they look weird that's because they are weird. I realize there's this idea that costumes have to be functional--Batman has to wear functional armour now. But really the guy is dressing up like a giant bat--realism should be the last thing on his mind.
    I get that - but there's a difference between outlandish, and the appearance of wearing underwear outside of pants.

  11. #71
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the COMET View Post
    Ok, there are some issues here. First i don't see the creators as white men, they are men, humans. Like you, me and everyone else on the planet. They created characters and stories and people liked them then and still like them now.
    You don't need to view them as white men, but they most certainly were, and mostly Jewish, too. As a half Jewish white man myself, I don't view that as a negative, but it does mean that these characters were almost exclusively funneled through the experiences of that segment of America, which represents only a fraction of the diversity that America and the world contains.

    Quote Originally Posted by the COMET View Post

    Then you tried to paint the creators as villains "looking to make a buck from children with disposable entertainment". They were artists trying to make a living out of their craft worrying on providing good entertainment to kids, adults, anyone who wants to buy their comics.
    If the content was so disposable as you say, it wouldn't be a success and the characters still relevant and loved today, nearly a Century later...
    What are you talking about? I am in no way trying to paint these guys as villains. I am simply repeating exactly what these creators themselves have said about their work over and over again through the years. At the time, none of these guys thought they were creating anything that would last decades. They indeed thought they were simply making a living producing disposable entertainment for kids. It wasn't until years later that any of them understood that their work would last for decades and become the foundation for billion dollar media franchises.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    I can certainly see how many would view DC's roster, or superheroes in general, as very old fashioned. Most of them are, after all, half a century old or older. They are largely the products of white men who were often Jewish and living in NYC. These characters are shaped by their experiences growing up through the Great Depression, WW2, and the Cold War looking to make a buck from children with disposable entertainment. As a result, the characters reflect the anxieties, preoccupations, and prejudices of their times, so superheroes are overflowing with rich playboys, scientists, test pilots, spies and soldiers fighting a never-ending battle against villains that almost always evoke the Nazis.
    This is outdated and incorrect by the way since there have been many superheroes created after this time looking at the varied lists.
    There are list of new superheroes created in 60's,70's,80's,90's and still today and they out number the ones created in 50's and earlier.
    New comicbook companies and superheroes were created after 50's,60's etc...

  13. #73
    Spectacular Member the COMET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BatmanJones View Post
    Don't see color, huh? Now that's outdated.
    Right?

    Why the color of the creators should matter? If they were black we'd be complaining there's not enough white elements in the stories? Or if they were yellow or pink?
    What really matters is if the stories are good and the drawings are well done.

    The DC universe is a fictional universe, it does not need to reflect the real world in any way. It's the same as complaining that Dragon Ball is too japanese! That there's not much diversity and this and that. Or Greek Mythology needs an update, let's have Hercules fight druglords and evil corporation CEOs instead of fighting the Hydra or Hades, i'm sure people would love that.

    It's funny, these politics ideas mixed into comics feel so out of place. They weren't there before, they came from somewhere else. From the news, journalism students or something like that, trying to take over comics from comics nerds.
    Both are words typed into a sheet of paper, but comics aren't the news. Stories come from another place, from ideas, dreams, they are philosophical and mythological. Those are the things that lasts forever. It takes a talented experienced creative person to write them.
    Only checking boxes like "we need to have these races represented, these genders, those issues addressed" those aren't the components of good storyteling, those are distractions used today to try to hide or get away with bad writing and empty stories.
    If you make comics based on the news they lack substance and last only for a second, then they are old news.
    Last edited by the COMET; 02-25-2021 at 09:39 PM.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemonpeace View Post
    Congo Bill. Congorilla is a cool idea for a kaiju, a giant magical golden Ape is a dope concept, but something about Congo Bill element just does not sit right with me. Congo Bill feels sorta colonial white saviory to me, plus the idea of him hijacking Congorilla's body and then getting "trapped" in its body when his original body dies (meaning he straight up Get Out'd Congorilla) just is kinda cruel and iky to me.



    actually hilarious
    When you break it down like that....

  15. #75
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mace11 View Post
    This is outdated and incorrect by the way since there have been many superheroes created after this time looking at the varied lists.
    There are list of new superheroes created in 60's,70's,80's,90's and still today and they out number the ones created in 50's and earlier.
    New comicbook companies and superheroes were created after 50's,60's etc...
    Since I never cut off the characters I was talking about at the 50s, your point is kinda redundant.

    I was mostly referring to the 30s to the 60s, which indeed comprise the majority of the most popular superheroes today. This does not mean that popular and influential characters haven't been created since then, the 70s produced plenty of them, too.

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