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  1. #91
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    They have in general problems to bring any new characters up in popularity. Unless they connect the character to one of the big six franchises.
    And that has like you said the problem that they will not be the main guy on the long run, that there franchises have now already that many characters that it is really hard to add new ones.

    The few new characters that succeed in the past decades, were usually the ones that were pretty different from the existing ones.
    Last edited by Conn Seanery; 02-27-2021 at 10:46 AM.

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    Funny, weren't both Captain Boomerang and Colonel Computron trademarks of the Willard Wiggins toy company? The whole point was to spoof the marketing of these toys for kids and the cold-blooded exploitation epitomized by Wiggins. Seems to me that still works. Maybe the problem is later writers have forgotten the satiric purpose of those characters. They are supposed to look corny. Obviously, someone like Digger Harkness would give up the moniker, because it was only invented for him as Wiggins' pitchman. And once he quit that company, he wouldn't even be able to use it without violating his contractual agreement--like the Lone Ranger Clayton Moore not being able to become the Lone Ranger.

    I see "out-dated" (not a term I'd use) as a seasoning. Sometimes in a story, you want to use that spice--you want something to have the feel of a bygone era. Heck, look at how many T.V. shows still do a 1940s film noir episode with their characters.

    You can just as easily argue that gunslingers from the Old West belong to the past--that doesn't mean they aren't an important symbol that a writer can always employ with great effect. Saying something is "out-dated" is admitting to having no imagination.
    No, it's acknowledging that time and society evolves and isn't static.

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    Superman but its feature not a flaw. A well done Superman feels outdated, other than couple Shonen anime Protagonist they don't build heroes like that anymore. I saw people gushing over the scene in Superman and Lois where he saves the kid from the car and I get why it works but feels alien today as well.
    If it works, it is by definition not outdated.

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    Hell, "Goody Rickles" was probably outdated back in 1971!
    Who cares what you think, you hockey puck!

    Seriously, Rickles seemed like he was on every show I watched as a kid. Mr. Warmth was Mr. Ubiquitous back then. Loved C.P.O. Sharkey, too.
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  5. #95
    Astonishing Member John Venus's Avatar
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    It's not like Black Panther was a huge seller before the MCU turned him into a billion dollar juggernaut but because Fiege and co. recognized his potential and put the right creative team on their titles. I think the problem at DC has everything to do with how the company turned into a playground for middle aged white Boomers during the aughts and the tens and anyone looking to create shows or movies are left with a confusing mess of a universe. I also don't think they look at anything beyond a sales chart who gets a movie or not. A character might not sell well but they might soar in an adaptation.
    Last edited by Conn Seanery; 02-27-2021 at 10:46 AM.

  6. #96
    Astonishing Member John Venus's Avatar
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    From what I understand, DC got the rights to all the Milestone characters during Dwayne McDuffie's run and Static's cartoon was made by WB. Though they've reworked a new deal since and there is a new Static show in the works.

    As for the MCU, even though Ant-Man gets placed as the next movie after Avengers, his movies never really hit the heights that other MCU movies did, even after appearing in CW and plot elements tying into IW and EG, it still didn't do that much better than the first installment. Meanwhile, BP and CM went onto make a billion each with BP almost threatening to eat into IW. Brand recognition only gets you so far, the individual movies still have to succeed on their own merits.

  7. #97
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    Well, billionaires like Elon Musk, and Jeff Bezos got even richer during 2020. So, I don't think the rich white man trope will become outdated any time soon.

    Also, despite wonky dialogue & fashion attire, John Stewart's first page of existence remains far from outdated, unfortunately.




    On a side note, DC was ahead of the curve with making Lex Luthor, a dubious businessman, a one term president, over ten years before Trump, lol.
    Last edited by Anthony Shaw; 02-26-2021 at 11:45 PM.

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    It's not like Black Panther was a huge seller before the MCU turned him into a billion dollar juggernaut but because Fiege and co. recognized his potential and put the right creative team on their titles.
    In comics he is still not a big seller.

    The MCU is kind of different beast, they would probably even been to make successfull movies about completely original charactrers, while the general audience is just not that confident in DC Movies, since they have been pretty hit or miss.

  9. #99
    Astonishing Member John Venus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    In comics he is still not a big seller.

    The MCU is kind of different beast, they would probably even been to make successfull movies about completely original charactrers, while the general audience is just not that confident in DC Movies, since they have been pretty hit or miss.
    That's the point. He wasn't a bigger but the MCU made him a billion dollar property by getting the creative team to work on his movie.

    As I've mentioned in a previous post even with the MCU hype machine, you could still end up with an Ant-Man level success, both movies did well but not to the levels of BP and CM, even with tie ins to IW and EG. It's not the general audience that has trouble accepting characters, they are willing to accept cyborg raccoons, magic doctors, god of thunder hanging out with a green monster, even outside the MCU they shell out money for the latest Michael Bay Transformers movies, it's really DC/WB that has trouble translating their roster of characters on to the big screen.

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    If it works, it is by definition not outdated.
    My old X-box 1 works and I can still have fun playing some games on it, It is most certainly is outdated.

  11. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    As I've mentioned in a previous post even with the MCU hype machine, you could still end up with an Ant-Man level success, both movies did well but not to the levels of BP and CM, even with tie ins to IW and EG. It's not the general audience that has trouble accepting characters, they are willing to accept cyborg raccoons, magic doctors, god of thunder hanging out with a green monster, even outside the MCU they shell out money for the latest Michael Bay Transformers movies, it's really DC/WB that has trouble translating their roster of characters on to the big screen.
    Yeah, but the general audience has not much confidence in DCU Movies being good.

    I would claim that Shazam is kind of comparable to Antman as a movie (both are fun solidly made Family Movies). Still Shazam made far less money than Antman.

    And while Antman seems to be kind of the lower end of what a MCU Movie will make, for DC that bar is far lower just look at the box office of the Harley Quinn movie.

    As long as WB/DC doesn't get it shit together and proofs that they can reliably put out good movies. Simply don't see their lesser known characters having much of the chance, and if it is only because no investor going to give them the money for it (and I doubt that they will even get money for their bigger characters if they continue like that ...).

  12. #102
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    Not reading all these pages (maybe later when there's time) but my two cents (and apologies if I'm just repeating what others have said)....

    If I rummage around in my head I'm sure I could find a few characters that no longer fit a contemporary narrative in any way. But much more often, I think, we simply have characters that require a minor adjustment or update.

    It's not that characters get out dated so much as writers refuse to adjust them and go with the ebb and flow of the times and culture.

    Superman being a journalist is no more out dated today than it was eighty years ago. That's not the problem; acting like printed newspapers are still a big thing and journalism hasn't changed since the 60's is the problem. But if the Superman comics tackled what journalism looks like today; the struggle of print, the rise of misinformation, social media and fake news, the attempts to silence journalism and/or use it for propaganda....you write about that and suddenly the Daily Planet isn't out dated, it's topical and relevant.

    Hal being a test pilot is likewise no more out dated; have we not been in armed conflict in the middle east for twenty years? Did we not start a brand new branch of the military built on flying and the new space race? Do we not still invest an insane amount of money on military R&D? Hal's origin is only out dated when we pretend that nothing has changed since the days of Chuck Yeager, but if Hal's origin acknowledged the current topics and conversations that surround pilots and the military; the rise of drones, the endless wars we've been fighting, the attempt to profiteer outer space, then Hal's origin likewise becomes topical and modern rather than old and tired.

    And the same can be said for any of these long standing IP's. A Wonder Woman story that tackles the topics of feminism and equality in the exact same way Marston did it eighty years ago is going to be old fashioned and out of step. A Wonder Woman story that tackles the topics of feminism and equality through the lens of modern philosophy won't be old fashioned or out of step at all, and the idea that it could be in a post-MeToo world is foolish and short sighted. A Nightwing story that acts as if traveling circuses are still popular is going to feel out dated, but a Nightwing story that acts like circus-like performances are still popular in places like Vegas or Cirque de Soleil won't feel out dated. Even someone like KGBeast, who was mentioned on the first page of the thread, can remain contemporary if writers don't pretend that it's the 70's/80's. I mean, look at Putin; he's literally former-KGB (right?) and you think KGBeast can't work today?

    The issue is not the characters. It's almost *never* the characters and the adjustments they require to feel contemporary are almost always minor. It is almost always (ALWAYS!) the writers and DC being afraid of, and unable to, change.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  13. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    The speed at which you're throwing up counterpoints to strawman arguments no one in this thread is making is pretty remarkable. It might be more helpful if you disengage from what you've no doubt been arguing with others on Twitter or elsewhere on CBR and try to stick with what we're trying to discuss in this thread. Making assumptions about people's motives that simply have no basis in reality isn't really the best way to have a discussion.

    If you honestly think politics in superhero comics is something new, you really need to re-read Seigel & Shuster's Superman, Simon & Kirby's Captain America, and dozens upon dozens of other comics from Stan Lee, Denny O'Neil, Neal Adams and many others. There was a brief period after the Comics Code came in that superhero comics specifically avoided politics, but they've been fairly present throughout its history. There's been mixed results to be sure, but the idea that "the news" or "journalism students" are responsible for the superhero genre suddenly tackling social issues is demonstrably incorrect.

    When Neal Adams and Denny O'Neil created John Stewart fifty years ago, what exactly do you think they were trying to accomplish? Were they simply checking boxes about diversity or were they trying to tell compelling stories that added a new character with a different perspective to the DCU?
    All I see is hatred towards white people. You can say it wasn't your intention but saying the problem of everything is because the creators were white, trying to make a buck from children. How will anyone who reads this percieve them?
    Then "you may not see them as white but they were white" like it's a bad thing. You can't say that to any race. Imagine if someone says everything is wrong because the creators were black. How would that sound?

    I'm aware that the very early Superman story is a social justice one, where he saves a woman that's been beaten up at home. And that's great!

    The creators from the past wrote stories like that because they felt like it. Not because there was a mob demanding them saying they are racists or phobics if they don't make them.



    Quote Originally Posted by BatmanJones View Post
    First, and I won't speak to your intention because I don't know your intention, "I don't see color" is typically a convenient way for white people to dismiss the various plights of BIPOC people. ¬“I'm not racist, I don't see color, everyone's just a person" disregards the history of racism/white supremacy in America and the world, a history that continues today, and is an actually racist statement in itself. How nice to be able to ¬‘not see race,¬’ a privilege that¬’s afforded only to white people. BIPOC people don¬’t have that option. They don¬’t get to not see color. They live their color, and the consequences of having been born as they were, every single day.

    Second, the complaints of politics and especially "social justice warriors" as if they don't have a place in comics disregards the origins of superhero comics. Superman was created to be a SJW. Now when he's written that way, as in Morrison's New52 Action Comics, people complain that that very fact, central to his original stories, is "out of character" and too political.

    Social justice, or more to the point social injustice, wasn't 'injected' into comics by journalists or other insidious outside forces; it was the inspiration for superheroes to begin with. Superman was not created to be an escape from reality; his creators endowed him with great powers so that he might overcome great injustices that existed in their actual world and ours. His earliest adventures didn't have him fighting monsters or space aliens. He was fighting corruption and speaking truth to power while he did it.

    And when we say the word political in the context of this discussion, let's be straight about it: we're talking about race. Maybe one day systemic racism will be "old news" like you say. That would be awesome. But we're not going to get there without acknowledging the existence of the white supremacy that perpetuates even today. It's been with us since before the founding of this nation and it isn't going away anytime soon. I would love for those things that divide us politically to be "old news," but they literally never, ever have. Sadly, they're not going out of style anytime soon.

    Representation is a critical step forward. That anyone, especially a superhero fan, would prefer to stand in place or even step backward, to disregard the greatest injustice/evil in our nation's history, makes my heart ache and my brain explode.
    So by what you're saying someone who don't see color and treat all with respect and equity is a racist person? Good luck with that.
    Everyone wants to live in a functional society, where everybody is treated fairly, have the same opportunities for work and paid the same salary for doing the same job to provide for their families, in the real life,
    You're trying to create changes towards this via a comicbook. Even if every change you want is made in the comicbook it won't reflect to society. Let me give you a example:

    Years ago i used to think like you and was happy that show like The Big Bang Theory was released, i thought 'normal people' would lose their hate towards nerds and stop with their bullying. But no, an entire series later 'normal people' still hates and bullies who they percieve as nerdy.
    Everything you're trying to fight for is valid, you're only doing it in the wrong place. You need to change the real world, not the entertainment.

    It's like you are at a NBA game, go to your seats and is surprised by the announcer saying instead of watching the game we are going to listen to a speach on social justice. And we have to pay for it and like it or else we are racist and phobic.

    Like i said where are all the people saying there is too much japanese representation in anime or too many greek people in greek mythology? You can't blame today's people by some mistake in the past like you can't blame today's germans for the Holocaust or today's british and spanish for colonizing the west. We all saw what happened to Star Wars, it backfires.

    In conclusion, i am not against treating people with equity and all of that like you tried to imply. What i don't want is a comicbook preaching at me how it wants me to think and behave, that's not why i bought it in the first place and is a wasted opportunity of telling a good, fun story to keep readers entertained. Stop trying to demonise someone who don't agree with you.

  14. #104
    Extraordinary Member j9ac9k's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the COMET View Post
    All I see is hatred towards white people.
    Nobody is hating on white people - that thinking is making you defensive and is obscuring the message. It's not about "white people" per se, but about media historically coming from one point of view to the exclusion of others. And it is different here in America because we have a ton of different people here. Also, there are people in other countries who feel similarly disenfranchised or under-represented in their own media,(India for one) so you're wrong about that.

    Comics and media has always had an agenda, you maybe just didn't notice because you were the target audience all your life and media that maintains the status quo doesn't attract as much attention as stories that look to upset the status quo. At the very least, comic books have told tales of good v. evil and have always been trying to tell us what to think on those terms. (just one example, but it's the most prevalent one) I don't think people are trying to "demonize you" as much as saying that the viewpoint you are espousing is either a)A hinderance to progress because it actively ignores certain realities about race or b)a commonly used line used by Comicsgate types whose declaration of neutrality and reason is a falsity used to hide their own bigotries. I am in no way passing judgement on you because I don't know you, but I am more commenting on the line of reasoning as you've been expressing it and what I personally see as a disconnect between you and those you are responding to.

    DC is always looking to tell "good fun stories to keep people entertained." DC used to do it when their policies were more exclusionary and they can still continue to do it whilst trying to be more inclusive. Those aren't mutually exclusive.
    Last edited by j9ac9k; 02-27-2021 at 12:21 PM.

  15. #105
    Extraordinary Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by j9ac9k View Post
    Nobody is hating on white people - that thinking is making you defensive and is obscuring the message. It's not about "white people" per se, but about media historically coming from one point of view to the exclusion of others. And it is different here in America because we have a ton of different people here. Also, there are people in other countries who feel similarly disenfranchised or under-represented in their own media,(India for one) so you're wrong about that.

    Comics and media has always had an agenda, you maybe just didn't notice because you were the target audience all your life and media that maintains the status quo doesn't attract as much attention as stories that look to upset the status quo. At the very least, comic books have told tales of good v. evil and have always been trying to tell us what to think on those terms. (just one example, but it's the most prevalent one) I don't think people are trying to "demonize you" as much as saying that the viewpoint you are espousing is either a)A hinderance to progress because it actively ignores certain realities about race or b)a commonly used line used by Comicsgate types whose declaration of neutrality and reason is a falsity used to hide their own bigotries. I am in no way passing judgement on you because I don't know you, but I am more commenting on the line of reasoning as you've been expressing it and what I personally see as a disconnect between you and those you are responding to.

    DC is always looking to tell "good fun stories to keep people entertained." DC used to do it when their policies were more exclusionary and they can still continue to do it whilst trying to be more inclusive. Those aren't mutually exclusive.
    Pretty much this.

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