Are there any DC characters that truly feel "outdated"

[BatmanJones]

Pretty much this.

Exactly. 10 char

[lemonpeace]

Nobody is hating on white people - that thinking is making you defensive and is obscuring the message. It's not about "white people" per se, but about media historically coming from one point of view to the exclusion of others. And it is different here in America because we have a ton of different people here. Also, there are people in other countries who feel similarly disenfranchised or under-represented in their own media,(India for one) so you're wrong about that.

Comics and media has always had an agenda, you maybe just didn't notice because you were the target audience all your life and media that maintains the status quo doesn't attract as much attention as stories that look to upset the status quo. At the very least, comic books have told tales of good v. evil and have always been trying to tell us what to think on those terms. (just one example, but it's the most prevalent one) I don't think people are trying to "demonize you" as much as saying that the viewpoint you are espousing is either a)A hinderance to progress because it actively ignores certain realities about race or b)a commonly used line used by Comicsgate types whose declaration of neutrality and reason is a falsity used to hide their own bigotries. I am in no way passing judgement on you because I don't know you, but I am more commenting on the line of reasoning as you've been expressing it and what I personally see as a disconnect between you and those you are responding to.

DC is always looking to tell "good fun stories to keep people entertained." DC used to do it when their policies were more exclusionary and they can still continue to do it whilst trying to be more inclusive. Those aren't mutually exclusive.

well said man, good stuff.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

All I see is hatred towards white people. You can say it wasn't your intention but saying the problem of everything is because the creators were white, trying to make a buck from children. How will anyone who reads this percieve them?
Then "you may not see them as white but they were white" like it's a bad thing. You can't say that to any race. Imagine if someone says everything is wrong because the creators were black. How would that sound?

I'm aware that the very early Superman story is a social justice one, where he saves a woman that's been beaten up at home. And that's great!

The creators from the past wrote stories like that because they felt like it. Not because there was a mob demanding them saying they are racists or phobics if they don't make them.
.

Who on Earth are you having this conversation with? Where did I say it was a villainous act for a bunch of white guys, many of whom were Jews, to make money creating what they believed at the time was going to be disposable children's entertainment? Where did I express hatred for white people? You can't because I didn't do that and it's painfully obvious that I wasn’t implying it either as I am both a white guy and Jewish. What those men accomplished is worthy of all the praise it gets. This discussion isn't about tearing them down, but rather about where we can and should go today in an industry built upon their work. How do we make today's characters as vital and relevant to today's world as those characters were to the 30s, 40s, 50s, and 60s? What needs to be updated and what needs to be left behind? It's not an easy question and it requires nuance and thoughtful balancing of the realities of the current aging comics market, but an eye towards future readers.

Unfortunately, you are not having this discussion with me, you are swinging at some preconceived idea of what you think I am saying so there's no real point in continuing trying to do so. If you want to have a real discussion with me, I will be here though.

[Anthony Shaw]

Nobody is hating on white people - that thinking is making you defensive and is obscuring the message. It's not about "white people" per se, but about media historically coming from one point of view to the exclusion of others. And it is different here in America because we have a ton of different people here. Also, there are people in other countries who feel similarly disenfranchised or under-represented in their own media,(India for one) so you're wrong about that.

Comics and media has always had an agenda, you maybe just didn't notice because you were the target audience all your life and media that maintains the status quo doesn't attract as much attention as stories that look to upset the status quo. At the very least, comic books have told tales of good v. evil and have always been trying to tell us what to think on those terms. (just one example, but it's the most prevalent one) I don't think people are trying to "demonize you" as much as saying that the viewpoint you are espousing is either a)A hinderance to progress because it actively ignores certain realities about race or b)a commonly used line used by Comicsgate types whose declaration of neutrality and reason is a falsity used to hide their own bigotries. I am in no way passing judgement on you because I don't know you, but I am more commenting on the line of reasoning as you've been expressing it and what I personally see as a disconnect between you and those you are responding to.

DC is always looking to tell "good fun stories to keep people entertained." DC used to do it when their policies were more exclusionary and they can still continue to do it whilst trying to be more inclusive. Those aren't mutually exclusive.

[Ra-El]

Not reading all these pages (maybe later when there's time) but my two cents (and apologies if I'm just repeating what others have said)....

If I rummage around in my head I'm sure I could find a few characters that no longer fit a contemporary narrative in any way. But much more often, I think, we simply have characters that require a minor adjustment or update.

It's not that characters get out dated so much as writers refuse to adjust them and go with the ebb and flow of the times and culture.

Superman being a journalist is no more out dated today than it was eighty years ago. That's not the problem; acting like printed newspapers are still a big thing and journalism hasn't changed since the 60's is the problem. But if the Superman comics tackled what journalism looks like today; the struggle of print, the rise of misinformation, social media and fake news, the attempts to silence journalism and/or use it for propaganda....you write about that and suddenly the Daily Planet isn't out dated, it's topical and relevant.

Hal being a test pilot is likewise no more out dated; have we not been in armed conflict in the middle east for twenty years? Did we not start a brand new branch of the military built on flying and the new space race? Do we not still invest an insane amount of money on military R&D? Hal's origin is only out dated when we pretend that nothing has changed since the days of Chuck Yeager, but if Hal's origin acknowledged the current topics and conversations that surround pilots and the military; the rise of drones, the endless wars we've been fighting, the attempt to profiteer outer space, then Hal's origin likewise becomes topical and modern rather than old and tired.

And the same can be said for any of these long standing IP's. A Wonder Woman story that tackles the topics of feminism and equality in the exact same way Marston did it eighty years ago is going to be old fashioned and out of step. A Wonder Woman story that tackles the topics of feminism and equality through the lens of modern philosophy won't be old fashioned or out of step at all, and the idea that it could be in a post-MeToo world is foolish and short sighted. A Nightwing story that acts as if traveling circuses are still popular is going to feel out dated, but a Nightwing story that acts like circus-like performances are still popular in places like Vegas or Cirque de Soleil won't feel out dated. Even someone like KGBeast, who was mentioned on the first page of the thread, can remain contemporary if writers don't pretend that it's the 70's/80's. I mean, look at Putin; he's literally former-KGB (right?) and you think KGBeast can't work today?

The issue is not the characters. It's almost *never* the characters and the adjustments they require to feel contemporary are almost always minor. It is almost always (ALWAYS!) the writers and DC being afraid of, and unable to, change.

This is pretty much what I think, but better.

Let's just look at Hal, have him still joining the Air Force because of his dad, Chuck Yeager and all that. Make Hal love flying and wanting to do it for his country, but when they send him to war, instead of the romantic dog fights he was expecting the job was to fly a 20 million dollars plane dropping bombs on targets he could barely see. He lost faith, became a test pilot and the rest is history.

[Will Evans]

Uncle Dudley from Shazam.

But they’ve gotten rid of him.

[j9ac9k]

The Newsboy Legion. DC has tried to update them, but the name alone would have to be changed.

[Will Evans]

The Newsboy Legion. DC has tried to update them, but the name alone would have to be changed.

Oh yeah them. Very good example.

Today they’d be like The Blog Legion with male and females.

[Restingvoice]

I'm going with Delivery Legion. They're hired to deliver packages from mom-and-pop stores since the big ones already have their own couriers.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

Uncle Dudley from Shazam.

But they’ve gotten rid of him.

Just make him Billy's actual uncle who cleaned up his act.

[Killerbee911]

Not reading all these pages (maybe later when there's time) but my two cents (and apologies if I'm just repeating what others have said)....

If I rummage around in my head I'm sure I could find a few characters that no longer fit a contemporary narrative in any way. But much more often, I think, we simply have characters that require a minor adjustment or update.

It's not that characters get out dated so much as writers refuse to adjust them and go with the ebb and flow of the times and culture.

Superman being a journalist is no more out dated today than it was eighty years ago. That's not the problem; acting like printed newspapers are still a big thing and journalism hasn't changed since the 60's is the problem. But if the Superman comics tackled what journalism looks like today; the struggle of print, the rise of misinformation, social media and fake news, the attempts to silence journalism and/or use it for propaganda....you write about that and suddenly the Daily Planet isn't out dated, it's topical and relevant.

Hal being a test pilot is likewise no more out dated; have we not been in armed conflict in the middle east for twenty years? Did we not start a brand new branch of the military built on flying and the new space race? Do we not still invest an insane amount of money on military R&D? Hal's origin is only out dated when we pretend that nothing has changed since the days of Chuck Yeager, but if Hal's origin acknowledged the current topics and conversations that surround pilots and the military; the rise of drones, the endless wars we've been fighting, the attempt to profiteer outer space, then Hal's origin likewise becomes topical and modern rather than old and tired.

And the same can be said for any of these long standing IP's. A Wonder Woman story that tackles the topics of feminism and equality in the exact same way Marston did it eighty years ago is going to be old fashioned and out of step. A Wonder Woman story that tackles the topics of feminism and equality through the lens of modern philosophy won't be old fashioned or out of step at all, and the idea that it could be in a post-MeToo world is foolish and short sighted. A Nightwing story that acts as if traveling circuses are still popular is going to feel out dated, but a Nightwing story that acts like circus-like performances are still popular in places like Vegas or Cirque de Soleil won't feel out dated. Even someone like KGBeast, who was mentioned on the first page of the thread, can remain contemporary if writers don't pretend that it's the 70's/80's. I mean, look at Putin; he's literally former-KGB (right?) and you think KGBeast can't work today?

The issue is not the characters. It's almost *never* the characters and the adjustments they require to feel contemporary are almost always minor. It is almost always (ALWAYS!) the writers and DC being afraid of, and unable to, change.

This is a good post , my small disagreement is with assessment of journalism and Superman. Not only is newspapers aren't a big thing, We have culture changed from being centered around newspapers and big part of Clark Kent thing is how his words would be able effect change just as much as Superman literally while superheroing .There is no newspaper journalist who has that impact anymore you can adapt the Daily Planet for the modern era better but if you want Clark Kent to have the same impact words to society if he would have to be Don Lemon, Anderson Cooper, Tucker Carlson or Sean Hannity or a regular contributor news talk show. Those are people who words have impact to masses today. So it is interesting dilemma of do you just update Daily Planet to be functioning version of what newspaper is modern world just tell good stories with that aspect or do you try to regain that voice for change in slightly different field.

Since I am here I don't find test pilot to be that outdated, Test pilot job is to show that he is fearless and has an "iron will" I think still it does that even though we don't gush over fighter pilots types like we did in the past. You switch test pilot to testing experimental space vehicles for spacex like company and it works today. Switching Nightwing to Cirque de Solei like group also makes a lot of sense I think if the every put Nightwing story on the big screen they will go with route. But like you said the changes are often small but requires moving away from tradition.

[SecretWarrior]

This is a good post , my small disagreement is with assessment of journalism and Superman. Not only is newspapers aren't a big thing, We have culture changed from being centered around newspapers and big part of Clark Kent thing is how his words would be able effect change just as much as Superman literally while superheroing .There is no newspaper journalist who has that impact anymore you can adapt the Daily Planet for the modern era better but if you want Clark Kent to have the same impact words to society if he would have to be Don Lemon, Anderson Cooper, Tucker Carlson or Sean Hannity or a regular contributor news talk show. Those are people who words have impact to masses today. So it is interesting dilemma of do you just update Daily Planet to be functioning version of what newspaper is modern world just tell good stories with that aspect or do you try to regain that voice for change in slightly different field.

Well, Clark doesn't have to be in front of the camera, which would stretch the bounds of credibility when it comes to his secret identity even further. JL: Gods and Monsters had a version of Lois who was a news anchor. You could take a page from HBO's The Newsroom and have Clark be a producer for Lois's show or Ron Troupe's show or Cat Grant's show or Lombard's show, etc.

[Killerbee911]

Well, Clark doesn't have to be in front of the camera, which would stretch the bounds of credibility when it comes to his secret identity even further. JL: Gods and Monsters had a version of Lois who was a news anchor. You could take a page from HBO's The Newsroom and have Clark be a producer for Lois's show or Ron Troupe's show or Cat Grant's show or Lombard's show, etc.

That is fine, I just mentioned it because it is important to note in updating a character whether you are going to try to keep the original intent or just update the character as best you can. And in Superman case might not be keep the original intent because the printed word isn't as powerful in technology age with people who have short attention spans. Part of Clark Kent thing is writing powerful pieces that can effect people if you still want to do that might mean changing his job.

It also might mean updating how keeps his secret identity just an example All might is a superman clone. And this is difference between him as human and in his hero mode



People love the glass secret identity to them it is sacred but bring the character up to date might mean trying something else. If Superman secret identity was sure up more could he do a job in the news? The answer is yes. Sometimes updating is simple, sometimes they are a lot of questions about what do you want to do with the character. And relax superman fan I am not saying to change anything I am just saying there is give and take in process. Once upon a time Superman changing in a phone booth was classic thing, Is protecting the classic thing always the best thing?

[Will Evans]

Well, Clark doesn't have to be in front of the camera, which would stretch the bounds of credibility when it comes to his secret identity even further. JL: Gods and Monsters had a version of Lois who was a news anchor. You could take a page from HBO's The Newsroom and have Clark be a producer for Lois's show or Ron Troupe's show or Cat Grant's show or Lombard's show, etc.

DC already tried updating him by making him a news anchor in the 70s at GBS.

I’m surprised the modern has never brought back that Bronze Age aspect of him.

The Superman & Lois show seem to be showing the downsizing of news print industry. So they’re taking the modern realistic approach of a newspaper.

[Lee Stone]

First, and I won't speak to your intention because I don't know your intention, "I don't see color" is typically a convenient way for white people to dismiss the various plights of BIPOC people. “I'm not racist, I don't see color, everyone's just a person" disregards the history of racism/white supremacy in America and the world, a history that continues today, and is an actually racist statement in itself. How nice to be able to ‘not see race,’ a privilege that’s afforded only to white people.

I just want to mention that ‘color blind’ and ‘I don’t see color’ have taken on totally different meanings than they did when I was growing up.
When I was growing up they meant equality for all, countering classism based on race.
Exhibit A - En Vogue’s ‘Free Your Mind’