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  1. #556
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kryptonian View Post
    Star Wars was going fine without abrams and episode 7 would have made 2 billion dollars regardless if it was decent


    After abrams...it’s an open question whether or not an episode 10 would be anything other than a flop, or that Star Wars is even a viable franchise anymore with a lot of evidence pointing to a massive decline in interest


    If you were to openly question episode 7’s box office potential, you would have been declared an idiot

    If you say that episode 10 would be a flop regardless of what they do, you would mostly get agreement.


    Star Trek was the dead franchise that abrams saved

    Star Wars was the sleeping giant that abrams and rian johnson killed


    Also...the source of all of the sequel trilogy’s bad ideas can be traced all the way to force awakens, the baby of jj abrams.


    This movie might be the first Superman movie to straight up flop rather than underperform, and bury the prospect of another Superman movie for good



    Source: Star Wars fan
    The only good Star Wars films are A New Hope, Empire and half of Return of the Jedi. Throw Mandalorian in there and then torch the rest. The lion's share of Star Wars is actually pretty bad.

    Source: Star Wars fan.

    See how anecdotal evidence doesn't mean a damn thing?

    Abrams revitalized Star Wars/Trek. Do I think either of his opening films for those IP were great? Absolutely not. They're popcorn entertainment at best and that's fine. Braindead spectacle. Certainly not as bad as the prequels. He's very good at getting a ball rolling, but he should never be the guy to keep it in motion. Abrams did nothing to kill it initially. The Force Awakens was successful and announced with a roar "Star Wars is back," even if it was pretty much just a remake. Yes, the creative visions of Johnson and Abrams and the poor stewarding of the IP by Disney ran it into the ground, but you're putting a lot of the blame on directors here instead of the people who had all the power to say "knock this stupid shit off" and didn't.

    So many things went wrong with Star Wars, but it wasn't just Abrams. I say that as someone who considers The Rise of Skywalker as one of the worst movies I've seen in a decade. He was never the right person for the job to conclude it, but trying to make it out like he's the reason the franchise staggered is revisionist history at best. The same can be said for Rian Johnson. Solo and Rogue One are both worse than The Last Jedi. The main issue is that Disney didn't step in and say "don't torpedo everything the last movie built up, we have plans for all that." They just let him do whatever he wanted and it backfired. The IP was mismanaged. This happens all the time.

  2. #557
    Extraordinary Member superduperman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    Well here is the thing with those groups-they do NOT watch or READ what they throw fits about.
    They go under the idea of NO ONE WILL READ OR WATCH THIS-so they can make up whatever they want.

    Example-one of those types made at least 10 videos attacking Star Wars Last Jedi. Comparing it to 1986 Transformers and unloading a TON of misinformation. One of his viewers asked him this "you were on here BEGGING for money to get a haircut. How did you have money to see that movie?"
    The reply-"I never saw it, I only watched the TRAILERS."

    Folks like that are mad and bitter.
    Most have their own stuff that NOBODY is supporting.
    Some are mad and bitter because you have franchises going after audiences that were ignored.
    Based solely on what I've heard from my step-dad, the biggest complaint they seem to have is that minorities are being made into perfect beings at the expense of white characters (cough) Micheal Burnham (cough). The biggest problem with this argument, however, is that, even if it's true, these same people don't want certain groups (cough) gays, trans people (cough) accepted by society to begin with. Which means that ANY portrayal of said groups will be scrutinized as "pushing an agenda" regardless of how it's handled.
    Greenlight the Smallville animated series, WB!

  3. #558
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    I'm gonna go major old man geek here....but Star Wars was better off before it went so mainstream. Its oversaturated now.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "“Your boos mean nothing, I’ve seen what makes you cheer!”

  4. #559
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    The only good Star Wars films are A New Hope, Empire and half of Return of the Jedi. Throw Mandalorian in there and then torch the rest. The lion's share of Star Wars is actually pretty bad.

    Source: Star Wars fan.

    See how anecdotal evidence doesn't mean a damn thing?

    Abrams revitalized Star Wars/Trek. Do I think either of his opening films for those IP were great? Absolutely not. They're popcorn entertainment at best and that's fine. Braindead spectacle. Certainly not as bad as the prequels. He's very good at getting a ball rolling, but he should never be the guy to keep it in motion. Abrams did nothing to kill it initially. The Force Awakens was successful and announced with a roar "Star Wars is back," even if it was pretty much just a remake. Yes, the creative visions of Johnson and Abrams and the poor stewarding of the IP by Disney ran it into the ground, but you're putting a lot of the blame on directors here instead of the people who had all the power to say "knock this stupid shit off" and didn't.

    So many things went wrong with Star Wars, but it wasn't just Abrams. I say that as someone who considers The Rise of Skywalker as one of the worst movies I've seen in a decade. He was never the right person for the job to conclude it, but trying to make it out like he's the reason the franchise staggered is revisionist history at best. The same can be said for Rian Johnson. Solo and Rogue One are both worse than The Last Jedi. The main issue is that Disney didn't step in and say "don't torpedo everything the last movie built up, we have plans for all that." They just let him do whatever he wanted and it backfired. The IP was mismanaged. This happens all the time.
    Star Wars had great toy sales...till the last jedi


    And it never recovered till mandalorian and ONLY for the mandalorian and the clone wars toys.


    People love Star Wars...they don’t like the sequels


    You can literally pinpoint the exact month Star Wars stopped being popular
    Last edited by kryptonian; 06-06-2021 at 06:41 PM.

  5. #560
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    I'm gonna go major old man geek here....but Star Wars was better off before it went so mainstream. Its oversaturated now.
    Heh, it started off as the highest selling film of all time, so I don't think it ever qualified as "not mainstream".

  6. #561
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    Aw man, if we start dissecting Disney's stewardship of Star Wars, we're going to be in a lot of trouble.

    But if we could make a parallel between Star Wars and Superman, I'd say long-time fans of both franchises suffered as a result of creative control going to entities who have no emotional attachment to the IP. I have a lot of personal theories about folks like Kathleen Kennedy, but I think regardless of what you think of her creative decisions, I think she was given a directive to make sure that people care more about the brand Star Wars itself than any legacy characters or ideas. Her job wasn't to give us fans a satisfying send-off for Luke, Leia, and Han; if you liked their send-off, consider it a lucky accident. Her job was to get you hyped for anything that has the words "Star Wars" stamped on it. And if that meant pawn off your Luke Skywalker toys in the trash and buy shiny new Rey toys, then so be it. This isn't the exact situation for Superman, but WB just wants you to buy anything with the S-shield on it, regardless of how the product compares to legacy stuff long-time fans loved.

    Obviously, not speaking for people who like Disney Star Wars or the current direction WB has been pushing for Superman...

  7. #562
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    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    Aw man, if we start dissecting Disney's stewardship of Star Wars, we're going to be in a lot of trouble.

    But if we could make a parallel between Star Wars and Superman, I'd say long-time fans of both franchises suffered as a result of creative control going to entities who have no emotional attachment to the IP. I have a lot of personal theories about folks like Kathleen Kennedy, but I think regardless of what you think of her creative decisions, I think she was given a directive to make sure that people care more about the brand Star Wars itself than any legacy characters or ideas. Her job wasn't to give us fans a satisfying send-off for Luke, Leia, and Han; if you liked their send-off, consider it a lucky accident. Her job was to get you hyped for anything that has the words "Star Wars" stamped on it. And if that meant pawn off your Luke Skywalker toys in the trash and buy shiny new Rey toys, then so be it. This isn't the exact situation for Superman, but WB just wants you to buy anything with the S-shield on it, regardless of how the product compares to legacy stuff long-time fans loved.

    Obviously, not speaking for people who like Disney Star Wars or the current direction WB has been pushing for Superman...
    Teen Jon is Rey with extra steps...let’s hope that he is also thrown in the trash just like Rey is largely forgotten

  8. #563
    Ultimate Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Thought I’d bump this rather than clutter up the Val-Zod thread with arguments over the nature of the Abrams reboot. I’m seeing some people, in light of the Val-Zod HBO Max announcement, suggest that maybe Coates Superman won’t be black after all, but I’d remind you guys that Abrams isn’t directing this and instead has mandated that they find a black director. No way are they doing that PLUS Coates being on board if this is just going to be a new white take.
    For when my rants on the forums just aren’t enough: https://thevindicativevordan.tumblr.com/

  9. #564
    Spectacular Member Kara Danvers's Avatar
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    Has there ever been a better time to be a Superman fan? We're getting so many Superman projects.

    And I don't want to say I told you so to everyone that said making Clark Kent black would mean black characters like Val Zod getting left behind, but I told you so.

  10. #565
    Extraordinary Member superduperman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    I'm gonna go major old man geek here....but Star Wars was better off before it went so mainstream. Its oversaturated now.
    Don't worry. Once the Dune movie comes out, we get to hear all about how Hollywood "ruined" it.
    Greenlight the Smallville animated series, WB!

  11. #566
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Thought I’d bump this rather than clutter up the Val-Zod thread with arguments over the nature of the Abrams reboot. I’m seeing some people, in light of the Val-Zod HBO Max announcement, suggest that maybe Coates Superman won’t be black after all, but I’d remind you guys that Abrams isn’t directing this and instead has mandated that they find a black director. No way are they doing that PLUS Coates being on board if this is just going to be a new white take.
    For me personally all the Val-Zod news does is make me think even more the movie will be Calvin. Still nothing provable yet though.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "“Your boos mean nothing, I’ve seen what makes you cheer!”

  12. #567
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kara Danvers View Post
    Has there ever been a better time to be a Superman fan? We're getting so many Superman projects.

    And I don't want to say I told you so to everyone that said making Clark Kent black would mean black characters like Val Zod getting left behind, but I told you so.
    I guess we have Michael B. Jordan to thank for Val-Zod.

    Whether it's a great time to be a Superman fan depends on the quality of the productions, although really the only productions I'm interested in are SM&L and My Adventures with Superman.

  13. #568
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Yeah, content is one thing. Strength of content is another. The only one that's even out yet is Superman and Lois.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "“Your boos mean nothing, I’ve seen what makes you cheer!”

  14. #569
    Ultimate Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    For me personally all the Val-Zod news does is make me think even more the movie will be Calvin. Still nothing provable yet though.
    It could be he’s called Calvin but has Clark’s origin. I can see that happening.
    For when my rants on the forums just aren’t enough: https://thevindicativevordan.tumblr.com/

  15. #570
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    Calvin and Val-Zod should be composited into one character

    Val-Zod being raised in Georgia by the Ellis family to grow up to become a pastor, who then goes into politics to become a senator, and finally becomes a presidential nominee against Gordon Godfrey

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