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  1. #496
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kara Danvers View Post

    Listen to me, as someone that knows more about Coates than you. If WB starts to get in the way of the Superman movie he's writing, he will walk away. He doesn't need WB and he isn't going to stand for any racism.
    So if I'm understanding you correctly, the legitimate grievances readers have with his work based on his published superheroe stories should be waived because of the strength of his published work in other genre? While he's writing a superhero movie for a corporation known to be tone-deaf at best?

    You're acting as if he can do no wrong and the only thing I know about his BP run is that it's universally reviled and his Captain America run has been apparently middling. He may be an excellent writer but-- by reputation-- he's subpar for superheroes. There's good reason to be concerned as a fan of Superman if they're giving him the character. Just because his heart may be in the right place doesn't mean he'll do well. JMS is an accomplished writer of comics and television and he was lukewarm-to-awful on Superman, a character he loves above all others.

    More importantly, you're holding onto Coates like he's the only one capable of delivering a banger Superman script featuring a black Superman. He isn't.

    Lastly, "listen to me" is the surefire way to ensure nobody listens beyond that statement. In all walks of life, it comes across as begging for the respect you haven't earned with that person, and following with "I know [x] more than you" seals it. Yes, Coates has his pride and will eventually walk if mistreated, but Superman is also a large IP and one that he would be able to put his mark on forever if this pans out. He's likely to be a bit more cooperative for want of getting the change the face of an American icon for an entire generation of filmgoers-- millions of people. None of us are Mr. Coates and I assure you none of us can speak for his intentions, what he endures or what he's willing to put up with. Let's leave that degree of speculation off the table, yes?

    Right now, based on his work, we have a relatively informed opinion of the direction Coates will take with his script but we also know he doesn't have an outstanding track record for superhero stories based on his body of work at Marvel with the readership of that title. Do they account for the entire audience? No, but they're among the more passionate fans who are familiar with the character so it's not exactly baseless criticism.

  2. #497
    Amazing Member Kara Danvers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    So if I'm understanding you correctly, the legitimate grievances readers have with his work based on his published superheroe stories should be waived because of the strength of his published work in other genre? While he's writing a superhero movie for a corporation known to be tone-deaf at best?

    You're acting as if he can do no wrong and the only thing I know about his BP run is that it's universally reviled and his Captain America run has been apparently middling. He may be an excellent writer but-- by reputation-- he's subpar for superheroes. There's good reason to be concerned as a fan of Superman if they're giving him the character. Just because his heart may be in the right place doesn't mean he'll do well. JMS is an accomplished writer of comics and television and he was lukewarm-to-awful on Superman, a character he loves above all others.

    More importantly, you're holding onto Coates like he's the only one capable of delivering a banger Superman script featuring a black Superman. He isn't.

    Lastly, "listen to me" is the surefire way to ensure nobody listens beyond that statement. In all walks of life, it comes across as begging for the respect you haven't earned with that person, and following with "I know [x] more than you" seals it. Yes, Coates has his pride and will eventually walk if mistreated, but Superman is also a large IP and one that he would be able to put his mark on forever if this pans out. He's likely to be a bit more cooperative for want of getting the change the face of an American icon for an entire generation of filmgoers-- millions of people. None of us are Mr. Coates and I assure you none of us can speak for his intentions, what he endures or what he's willing to put up with. Let's leave that degree of speculation off the table, yes?

    Right now, based on his work, we have a relatively informed opinion of the direction Coates will take with his script but we also know he doesn't have an outstanding track record for superhero stories based on his body of work at Marvel with the readership of that title. Do they account for the entire audience? No, but they're among the more passionate fans who are familiar with the character so it's not exactly baseless criticism.
    Coates could turn out a bad script. The execution of his ideas will also depend on the director. I have said all of this before.

    What all of you are going to have to accept is that none of you know better than Coates what the best ideas are for black representation and how to do deal with WB's racism. None of you know more about racism than the writer of Between the World and Me.

    You don't have to like his ideas and you can be worried that he isn't skilled enough to execute his ideas but don't act like you know better than him about race and how to deal with a racist studio.

  3. #498
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kara Danvers View Post

    Coates could turn out a bad script. The execution of his ideas will also depend on the director. I have said all of this before.

    What all of you are going to have to accept is that none of you know better than Coates what the best ideas are for black representation and how to do deal with WB's racism. None of you know more about racism than the writer of Between the World and Me.

    You don't have to like his ideas and you can be worried that he isn't skilled enough to execute his ideas but don't act like you know better than him about race and how to deal with a racist studio.
    None of us have stated we know better than Coates, and I've posted many times over on this forum what my ethnic makeup is (and I'm hoping you're aware of what it is to make that statement instead of just making an assumption) but many here have expressed that they themselves are in fact black and as such have their own understanding of what it means to be black in America and deal with racism and none of us (including you) are the ones who should be the arbiter that should make that decision. Frankly, nobody should. The black experience in America, like every experience in America, is comprised of many viewpoints and as such a more complicated construct than you're making it out to be. I have no doubts some posters here may have experienced a much easier life than Coates and some a much, much worse one. You're arguing nobody here knows better than he does as if you've read every poster's biography and can state with factual evidence they don't have it as bad. To be polite, I'll say that's incredibly arrogant and leave it at that.

    The very notion that one person can be the spokesperson for such a complicated experience is a bit troubling to begin with, and the way you're trying to be the arbiter of discussion for it when we have black people here posting their views that don't match your own indicates (at least to this poster) that perhaps you should take a moment to reflect on what it is you're even arguing anymore. You've descended to strawmans that are attacking arguments nobody's even making. I have some experience there, I've put my foot in my mouth before on these very boards with respect to issues I find very troubling and I too had to take a step back and re-evaluate my conduct. I suggest you do the same, because at this point you're railing against a voice that only comes from you.
    Last edited by Robanker; 05-09-2021 at 02:24 PM.

  4. #499
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kara Danvers View Post

    Coates could turn out a bad script. The execution of his ideas will also depend on the director. I have said all of this before.

    What all of you are going to have to accept is that none of you know better than Coates what the best ideas are for black representation and how to do deal with WB's racism. None of you know more about racism than the writer of Between the World and Me.

    You don't have to like his ideas and you can be worried that he isn't skilled enough to execute his ideas but don't act like you know better than him about race and how to deal with a racist studio.
    Nobody's really saying this. The issues/mistrust with WB as a studio (both on the topic of race and other things) is really kind of a separate issue than what people are saying about Coates. You yourself said his fiction writing wasn't that strong, but that doesn't stand out as being somewhat worrisome? Superman is a fictional character who first and foremost needs to entertain to justify his existence, commentary should always be secondary. The fact that his fiction writing is weak, combined with having a reviled run on Black Panther which undermines that character and his world, is what is giving people pause.

  5. #500
    Amazing Member Kara Danvers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    None of us have stated we know better than Coates, and I've posted many times over on this forum what my ethnic makeup is (and I'm hoping you're aware of what it is to make that statement instead of just making an assumption) but many here have expressed that they themselves are in fact black and as such have their own understanding of what it means to be black in America and deal with racism and none of us (including you) are the ones who should be the arbiter that should make that decision. Frankly, nobody should. The black experience in America, like every experience in America, is comprised of many viewpoints and as such a more complicated construct than you're making it out to be. I have no doubts some posters here may have experienced a much easier life than Coates and some a much, much worse one. You're arguing nobody here knows better than he does as if you've read every poster's biography and can state with factual evidence they don't have it as bad. To be polite, I'll say that's incredibly arrogant and leave it at that.

    The very notion that one person can be the spokesperson for such a complicated experience is a bit troubling to begin with, and the way you're trying to be the arbiter of discussion for it when we have black people here posting their views that don't match your own indicates (at least to this poster) that perhaps you should take a moment to reflect on what it is you're even arguing anymore. You've descended to strawmans that are attacking arguments nobody's even making. I have some experience there, I've put my foot in my mouth before on these very boards with respect to issues I find very troubling and I too had to take a step back and re-evaluate my conduct. I suggest you do the same, because at this point you're railing against a voice that only comes from you.
    Many viewpoints but the ones asking for a black Superman are only there for you to disagree with. You will openly disagree with posts supporting Coates and a black Superman but say nothing to the posts saying Superman shouldn't be black.

    I haven't made any notion that Coates is a spokesperson for the black experience. What I will say is that he knows how to write about race and racism better than anyone on this forum. His is not the only way and he doesn't know everything but understanding that he is more knowledgeable is not a giant leap. Coates knows better how to deal with racism than Ben Carson. Unless you disagree with that, you will understand the point I made.
    Last edited by Kara Danvers; 05-09-2021 at 02:36 PM.

  6. #501
    Amazing Member Kara Danvers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Nobody's really saying this. The issues/mistrust with WB as a studio (both on the topic of race and other things) is really kind of a separate issue than what people are saying about Coates. You yourself said his fiction writing wasn't that strong, but that doesn't stand out as being somewhat worrisome? Superman is a fictional character who first and foremost needs to entertain to justify his existence, commentary should always be secondary. The fact that his fiction writing is weak, combined with having a reviled run on Black Panther which undermines that character and his world, is what is giving people pause.
    There are people worried about his fiction writing that aren't against WB making a black Superman movie. I will join them if WB doesn't get a good director.

  7. #502
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kara Danvers View Post
    Many viewpoints but the ones asking for a black Superman are only there for you to disagree with. You will openly disagree with posts supporting Coates and a black Superman but say nothing to the posts saying Superman shouldn't be black.

    I haven't made any notion that Coates is a spokesperson for the black experience. What I will say is that he knows how to write about race and racism better than anyone on this forum. His is not the only way and he doesn't know everything but understanding that he is more knowledgeable is not a giant leap. Coates knows better how to deal with racism than Ben Carson. Unless you disagree with that, you will understand the point I made.
    Quote then post I made where I said people shouldn't support Coates. Moreover, I only recently started posting in this thread so you're right insofar as my posting hasn't pushed back on posts saying "Superman should only be white." I don't really see many of those either so feel free to quote them to provide evidence because I just ain't seeing it.

  8. #503
    Amazing Member Kara Danvers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Quote then post I made where I said people shouldn't support Coates. Moreover, I only recently started posting in this thread so you're right insofar as my posting hasn't pushed back on posts saying "Superman should only be white." I don't really see many of those either so feel free to quote them to provide evidence because I just ain't seeing it.

    All I (and many) are seeing you do is strawman arguments to sound like some moral superior.
    I went back to your posts here and saw you using the phrase virtue signaling. That tells me all I need to know.

    I'm not here to act morally superior but I can see how you might feel that way when I'm supporting black representation and you are coming out against it.
    Last edited by Kara Danvers; 05-09-2021 at 02:48 PM.

  9. #504
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kara Danvers View Post
    I went back to your posts here and saw you using the phrase virtue signaling. That tells me all I need to know.

    I'm not here to act morally superior but I can see how you might feel that way when I'm supporting black representation and you are coming out against it.
    At no point have I ever come out against black representation in comic books, much less DC's comics. Thankfully, I think my posting history here has spoken for itself and I am willing to wager that you're alone in feeling that way. I know I certainly have no problems with a black Superman or any of DC's non-white or straight characters getting more page real estate.

    You called out my use of the phrase "virtue signaling," so I feel I should repost my thoughts to better illustrate them:

    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Furthermore, when (as said so well in the quoted post) WB is not exactly supporting their black creators, it feels a little weird to suddenly push this Superman project. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad that they're supporting their black creators in this endeavor, but when you cancel all the lower-profile stuff and hype one very big project, it seems less like a sincere call to addressing a systemic issue and more like virtue signalling. I don't want to feel that way, but I do. New Gods getting cancelled still bums me out. You could argue that it's the bigger swing-- and it is-- but if they're only going to take a swing when all eyes are looking, does it really feel sincere? Take the big swing, but also the base hits too.
    I want them to stop cancelling their smaller black-led projects instead of just hyping up the one big one. I want more, not less. There's no reason we can't have Naomi and a black Superman but also can't have New Gods. No reason.
    Last edited by Robanker; 05-09-2021 at 02:58 PM.

  10. #505
    Amazing Member Kara Danvers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    I know I certainly have no problems with a black Superman or any of DC's non-white or straight characters getting more page real estate.
    What are you here arguing then? We aren't disagreeing if you support a black Superman movie and understand that Coates knows better than us on race and racism in America.

  11. #506
    Amazing Member Kara Danvers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    You called out my use of the phrase "virtue signaling," so I feel I should repost my thoughts to better illustrate them:

    Yeah, I sure am coming out against black representation. Got me good, you did.

    I want them to stop cancelling their smaller black-led projects instead of just hyping up the one big one. I want more, not less. There's no reason we can't have Naomi and a black Superman but also can't have New Gods. No reason.
    That sounds like you support black representation except the ones that are actually moving forward. You might not have meant that but that's how I read it because against increased representation say things like that.

    Ava DuVernay is creating a show for HBO Max. Losing New God is sad but she is still working on projects for WB.
    Last edited by Kara Danvers; 05-09-2021 at 03:18 PM.

  12. #507
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kara Danvers View Post
    What are you here arguing then? We aren't disagreeing if you support a black Superman movie and understand that Coates knows better than us on race and racism in America.
    I wouldn't disagree with that, but I'd argue I'm more worried about his understanding of Superhero fiction and whether he would be able to craft a good Superman story.

  13. #508
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kara Danvers View Post
    What are you here arguing then? We aren't disagreeing if you support a black Superman movie and understand that Coates knows better than us on race and racism in America.
    I'm disagreeing that you or I-- perhaps even Coates, who is a singular person and thus can have had it better or worse than others-- know better than black people here who we don't know and have no idea the hardships they've endured because of their race, color or creed. I'm disagreeing with you that any of us are some arbiter to make that decision. I'm disagreeing that it's in any way helpful for (and I can only speak for myself with this next statement) a white person to stand up and point to someone else and say "he knows what it's like to be black more than anyone else."

    So I can't cosign your statements and I disagree with the methods you're using to get across what I do think is something you sincerely believe in. You're essentially shouting people down for their misgivings about a product based on the creator's history with similar product. Not everything is an indictment of race. Sometimes very qualified people are bad at genre, and thus far Coates has struggled as a superhero writer. Yes, he knows a great deal about the black experience in America and is a very accomplished writer. He's not writing a film about Doctor King, Malcom X, Rosa Parks, Frederick Douglas, Booker T. Washington, Harriet Tubman or a historical figure rooted in the historical struggle of a people so unjustly (as if there's a just variant) oppressed-- he's writing about Superman, a fictional character who above all else needs to entertain as well as say something. If he fails on the former, ultimately Superman doesn't work, and many are concerned.

    Moreover, many (not just on this thread) are frustrated to see black characters like Calvin and Val overlooked for want of making Clark black. Yes, it affords a black actor one of the most influential roles in American pop culture (and that's awesome), but it also does present other problems such as presenting the idea that none of DC's actual black characters are as interesting as just racebending the current ones. Think of the following: DC is going to do a black Hal Jordan instead of John Stewart in the next Green Lantern film. If that hypothetical situation doesn't bother you, I suggest you go to the John Stewart thread and propose it there. See how everyone feels.

    Personally? I'll still watch this Superman movie unless the trailer just looks god-awful, but I am disappointed we're getting Clark instead of Calvin who I think offers a lot of the same qualities Clark does while affording some freedom from expectations the name "Clark Kent" gives the narrative and overall just fewer freedoms for Coates to really go all out.
    Last edited by Robanker; 05-09-2021 at 03:17 PM.

  14. #509
    Amazing Member Kara Danvers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I wouldn't disagree with that, but I'd argue I'm more worried about his understanding of Superhero fiction and whether he would be able to craft a good Superman story.
    I understand that and don't think anyone is wrong for feeling that way.

  15. #510
    Amazing Member Kara Danvers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    I'm disagreeing that you, I or Coates know better than black people here who we don't know and have no idea the hardships they've endured because of their race, color or creed. I'm disagreeing with you that any of us are some arbiter to make that decision. I'm disagreeing that it's in any way helpful for (and I can only speak for myself with this next statement) a white person to stand up and point to someone else and say "he knows what it's like to be black more than anyone else."

    So I can't cosign your statements and I disagree with the methods you're using to get across what I do think is something you sincerely believe in. You're essentially shouting people down for their misgivings about a product based on the creator's history with similar product. Not everything is an indictment of race. Sometimes very qualified people are bad at genre, and thus far Coates has struggled as a superhero writer. Yes, he knows a great deal about the black experience in America and is a very accomplished writer. He's not writing a film about Doctor King, Malcom X, Rosa Parks, Frederick Douglas, Booker T. Washington, Harriet Tubman or a historical figure rooted in the historical struggle of a people so unjustly oppressed-- he's writing about Superman, a fictional character who above all else needs to entertain as well as say something. If he fails on the former, ultimately Superman doesn't work, and many are concerned.

    Moreover, many (not just on this thread) are frustrated to see black characters like Calvin and Val overlooked for want of making Clark black. Yes, it affords a black actor one of the most influential roles in American pop culture (and that's awesome), but it also does present other problems such as presenting the idea that none of DC's actual black characters are as interesting as just racebending the current ones. Think of the following: DC is going to do a black Hal Jordan instead of John Stewart in the next Green Lantern film. If that hypothetical situation doesn't bother you, I suggest you go to the John Stewart thread and propose it there. See how everyone feels.

    Personally? I'll still watch this Superman movie unless the trailer just looks god-awful, but I am disappointed we're getting Clark instead of Calvin who I think offers a lot of the same qualities Clark does while affording some freedom from expectations the name "Clark Kent" gives the narrative and overall just fewer freedoms for Coates to really go all out.
    A black Clark shouldn't mean no Calvin or Val-Zod. A black Hal shouldn't mean no John and if WB can't succeed with racebent versions of their most popular characters, they aren't even going to try making movies starring characters like Calvin.

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