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  1. #511
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kara Danvers View Post
    A black Clark shouldn't mean no Calvin or Val-Zod. A black Hal shouldn't mean no John and if WB can't succeed with racebent versions of their most popular characters, they aren't even going to try making movies starring characters like Calvin.
    There's no reason to do a black Hal when you can just do John Stewart, a vital, rich character with tons of storytelling opportunities and born of the need for more black heroes in his medium. Just making Hal black instead of having John star is part of the problem. It's like saying "why adapt these works by and about black people when we can just take stories created by white people about white people and make them black?"

    Yes, you can still do that, but you're essentially still saying "all the black source material isn't as juicy as the white stuff and we can modify it." Characters like John Stewart, Black Lightning, Vixen, Static and so many others will never get a shot if AT&T can just racebend Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman and call it a day. Calvin Ellis is something movie going audiences have never seen before and offers everything Clark does and more for what they're looking to accomplish. It's just the more interesting take. Hell, he offers them a little freedom because nobody can say "Clark wouldn't do that," much like the arguments made for why DC wants Jon to take over-- similar Superman feel without all the hangups of 80 years of cultural familiarity. Across every avenue, he just affords the project more creative liberty and is a better fit for what they want to do.

    I know I'm personally very excited for Infinite Frontier for Alan (a now out-of-the-closet gay man) and Calvin (a black Superman) leading the narrative drawn by Xermanico and written by Williamson (who I'm not super keen on, but I'm sold from what comes earlier).
    Last edited by Robanker; 05-09-2021 at 03:30 PM.

  2. #512
    Amazing Member Kara Danvers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    There's no reason to do a black Hal when you can just do John Stewart, a vital, rich character with tons of storytelling opportunities and born of the need for more black heroes in his medium. Just making Hal black instead of having John star is part of the problem. It's like saying "why adapt these works by and about black people when we can just take stories created by white people about white people and make them black?"

    Yes, you can still do that, but you're essentially still saying "all the black source material isn't as juicy as the white stuff and we can modify it." Characters like John Stewart, Black Lightning, Vixen, Static and so many others will never get a shot if AT&T can just racebend Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman and call it a day. Calvin Ellis is something movie going audiences have never seen before and offers everything Clark does and more for what they're looking to accomplish. It's just the more interesting take. Hell, he offers them a little freedom because nobody can say "Clark wouldn't do that," much like the arguments made for why DC wants Jon to take over-- similar Superman feel without all the hangups of 80 years of cultural familiarity. Across every avenue, he just affords the project more creative liberty and is a better fit for what they want to do.

    I know I'm personally very excited for Infinite Frontier for Alan (a now out-of-the-closet gay man) and Calvin (a black Superman) leading the narrative drawn by Xermanico and written by Williamson (who I'm not super keen on, but I'm sold from what comes earlier).
    Black representation and poc representation overall is lacking. Some white characters are going to be racebent if things are going to be equal.

    There's no reason for Hal to be white if there's a Green Lantern movie with Hal and John. He can be any other race.

    Static Shock is getting a movie. Reginald Hudlin and Michael B. Jordan are producing it.

    I also think original poc characters should get movies but that shouldn't stop racebending the most famous characters. Marvel & DC are already doing it and they shouldn't stop.

    There are people that are against diversity and representation saying the same things a lot of people have about using original poc characters instead racebending but they don't mean it and people that mean well are going to get mixed up with them when they say the same things.
    Last edited by Kara Danvers; 05-09-2021 at 03:44 PM.

  3. #513
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kara Danvers View Post
    Black representation and poc representation overall is lacking. Some white characters are going to be racebent if things are going to be equal.

    There's no reason for Hal to be white if there's a Green Lantern movie with Hal and John. He can be any other race.

    Static Shock is getting a movie. Reginald Hudlin and Michael B. Jordan are producing it.

    I'm with you that original poc characters should get movies but that shouldn't stop racebending the most famous characters. Marvel & DC are already doing it and they shouldn't stop.
    No one's arguing that representation isn't lacking but I feel like in several instances the better solution would be promoting characters of color from their inception instead of trying to implement retroactive diversity, but that's just my take on it.

    Why race-bend Hal when there are other GL's of color you could use? It just seems intellectually disingenuous to me.

  4. #514
    Amazing Member Kara Danvers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    No one's arguing that representation isn't lacking but I feel like in several instances the better solution would be promoting characters of color from their inception instead of trying to implement retroactive diversity, but that's just my take on it.

    Why race-bend Hal when there are other GL's of color you could use? It just seems intellectually disingenuous to me.
    Do both.

    Racebending does not mean ignoring original poc characters.

  5. #515
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kara Danvers View Post
    Do both.

    Racebending does not mean ignoring original poc characters.
    I'm not sure studios see it that way, but I feel like for certain franchises it's not as necessary when you already have a diverse cast available for use.

  6. #516
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kara Danvers View Post
    Do both.

    Racebending does not mean ignoring original poc characters.
    Racebending, unless its done for purely creative or logistical reasons, becomes a political decision and is likely to invite backlash that using original POC characters does not. Like it or not, the idea that an icon of American (and global) pop-culture is going to be changed from a white man to a black man is going to be intensely controversial at the very least. Superman being racebent will be the most controversial instance of racebending ever. At a time when the United States, and the Western world in general, are in the middle of an intense culture war over issues of race, among other things...

    Sure, you can say that anyone who doesn't want Superman to be racebent is a ''racist''. Maybe some of them are. Maybe a lot of them are. (I mean who knows, the bar for what's ''racist'' has grown increasingly lower in recent years). Ultimately, DC/WB is a business. They may be willing to latch onto current socio-political trends in media to generate some buzz and PR and go in a bold new direction with their flagship character. But they won't do so to the detriment of the long-term health of the brand.

  7. #517
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    I don't see any problems with having a black clark kent or It's still clark for clark kent fans with dad like speeches and "heavenly father up in the clouds" shtick.I don't see what's the big deal.There is rumours that they are doing something from the 30s.Now that would be ballsy.I see bigger cry happening for that.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 05-09-2021 at 10:38 PM.
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  8. #518
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    So if I'm understanding you correctly, the legitimate grievances readers have with his work based on his published superheroe stories should be waived because of the strength of his published work in other genre? While he's writing a superhero movie for a corporation known to be tone-deaf at best?

    You're acting as if he can do no wrong and the only thing I know about his BP run is that it's universally reviled and his Captain America run has been apparently middling. He may be an excellent writer but-- by reputation-- he's subpar for superheroes. There's good reason to be concerned as a fan of Superman if they're giving him the character. Just because his heart may be in the right place doesn't mean he'll do well. JMS is an accomplished writer of comics and television and he was lukewarm-to-awful on Superman, a character he loves above all others.

    More importantly, you're holding onto Coates like he's the only one capable of delivering a banger Superman script featuring a black Superman. He isn't.

    Lastly, "listen to me" is the surefire way to ensure nobody listens beyond that statement. In all walks of life, it comes across as begging for the respect you haven't earned with that person, and following with "I know [x] more than you" seals it. Yes, Coates has his pride and will eventually walk if mistreated, but Superman is also a large IP and one that he would be able to put his mark on forever if this pans out. He's likely to be a bit more cooperative for want of getting the change the face of an American icon for an entire generation of filmgoers-- millions of people. None of us are Mr. Coates and I assure you none of us can speak for his intentions, what he endures or what he's willing to put up with. Let's leave that degree of speculation off the table, yes?

    Right now, based on his work, we have a relatively informed opinion of the direction Coates will take with his script but we also know he doesn't have an outstanding track record for superhero stories based on his body of work at Marvel with the readership of that title. Do they account for the entire audience? No, but they're among the more passionate fans who are familiar with the character so it's not exactly baseless criticism.
    Coates's run isn't universally reviled. It might seem that way if you only look at the BP thread but it consistently gets good reviews. And I say this as someone with his own issues with Coates's writing.

  9. #519
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Coates's run isn't universally reviled. It might seem that way if you only look at the BP thread but it consistently gets good reviews. And I say this as someone with his own issues with Coates's writing.
    Thanks for the clarification on his BP run. Even elsewhere, all I hear is it sucks based on some stuff he did you the Dora Milaje but I have no experience with his run so I appreciate the update.

  10. #520
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Thanks for the clarification on his BP run. Even elsewhere, all I hear is it sucks based on some stuff he did you the Dora Milaje but I have no experience with his run so I appreciate the update.
    Yeah thanks for the info. I want to be super clear that my comments never had anything to do with Coates. I’m sure, like most runs, there were those who loved it and those who hated it. Such is life in this genre.

  11. #521
    Ultimate Member Vordan's Avatar
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    https://twitter.com/cheryllynneaton/...975174659?s=21

    Thought this was an interesting perspective

    My final opinion for now is a “meh”. I’ll reserve final judgement until the movie is out, and the opinions of people I trust sign off on it. It sounds like this is going to be a Joker-esque Elseworld story and I don’t really have any objection to that existing.

    Pros
    Puts an end to Snyder’s Evil Superman plans which is always a plus. If the choice is between a black Superman and an evil Superman I know which one I’m going with
    Dealing with some Golden Age stories sounds fun, it being a period piece could be cool

    Cons
    Coates is a terrible fiction writer and I don’t trust him to do a good job
    I would rather have had one of the original black DC characters get a shot at a movie over racebending Superman which I totally disagree can have his race changed without changing how he works
    This is coming from the same place of “Superman doesn’t work and we have to update him” as the DCEU, just going in a different direction which raises my ire

    Overall, best case scenario is maybe it revives Superman on the big screen and we get some more Golden Age inspired stuff elsewhere which would be cool. Worst case scenario is it’s a Superman Returns tier flop which is sort of what I’m expecting. Going “woke” didn’t work for Birds of Prey, Terminator: Genysis, or Charlie’s Angels, and I doubt this will be any different. Especially if WB is delusional enough to want BP money out of this which I doubt it will get. But as long as it doesn’t negatively impact the Superman stuff I like elsewhere I guess I’ll just wait and see what happens.
    Last edited by Vordan; 05-10-2021 at 09:59 AM.
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  12. #522
    Amazing Member Kara Danvers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    https://twitter.com/cheryllynneaton/...975174659?s=21

    Thought this was an interesting perspective
    On one side you have the writer of Between the World and Me. On the other side you have someone with a twitter account.

    I'm not saying this to you Vordan because you're only saying it's interesting but some people need to think hard why the only black people they are listening to are those saying Superman shouldn't be black.

  13. #523
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kara Danvers View Post
    On one side you have the writer of Between the World and Me. On the other side you have someone with a twitter account.

    I'm not saying this to you Vordan because you're only saying it's interesting but some people need to think hard why the only black people they are listening to are those saying Superman shouldn't be black.
    Cheryl Lynn Eaton is an extremely successful woman and writer with a lot of very complex and intelligent things to say about critical race theory. Reducing her to just someone with a "twitter account" is mean on your part.

    Cheryl is also a WOMAN and is going to have a different POV than even Black men perhaps.

    I'm not saying I agree with Cheryl because AGAIN----not my lane. I think what she has to say is interesting but I am not the decision maker on this. But you should not be trying to discredit her as lesser.
    Last edited by Nelliebly; 05-10-2021 at 10:01 AM.

  14. #524
    Ultimate Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kara Danvers View Post
    On one side you have the writer of Between the World and Me. On the other side you have someone with a twitter account.

    I'm not saying this to you Vordan because you're only saying it's interesting but some people need to think hard why the only black people they are listening to are those saying Superman shouldn't be black.
    I make no pretensions: I’m not enthusiastic about this. I didn’t want Superman to be black and I don’t think this is going to be good because that same writer also wrote terrible Black Panther and Cap runs. Coates being able to pump out good essays doesn’t mean he’s a good fit for Superman, if anything his work makes me look at him as a terrible fit for Superman. Coates was all about deconstructing the characters of BP and Cap, both idealistic and optimistic characters at their core, and I’m really just not in the mood for another “but what does Superman mean?” thoughtpiece.

    Still this is a step up from Snyder. I wanted just a dumb fun Aquaman type blockbuster, not a Joker type period piece Elseworld, but I guess I don’t really object to them doing this. At best it’s a success we get a new Superman trilogy, maybe some other Golden Age Superman content (sure would be nice if it meant the end of evil Superman stories but I digress), hopefully they’ll push Calvin on the comics side to coincide with this. At worst it flops or underperforms like Superman Returns and BoP did and then they put Superman away for a decade or more and the next person to come along manages to finally crack him. I’d be fine with S&L and the animated side being where Superman gets positive rep.

    So: I’ll wait. Can’t trust the trailers after I got burned by Snyder for MoS but I’ll go see it if one of my friends whose opinions I trust signs off on it. I’m neither excited nor angry, just wary for now.
    For when my rants on the forums just aren’t enough: https://thevindicativevordan.tumblr.com/

  15. #525
    Amazing Member Kara Danvers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nelliebly View Post
    Cheryl Lynn Eaton is an extremely successful woman and writer with a lot of very complex and intelligent things to say about critical race theory. Reducing her to just someone with a "twitter account" is mean on your part.

    Cheryl is also a WOMAN and is going to have a different POV than even Black men perhaps.

    I'm not saying I agree with Cheryl because AGAIN----not my lane. I think what she has to say is interesting but I am not the decision maker on this. But you should not be trying to discredit her as lesser.
    I know she's genuine and cares about representation.

    She can be successful and informed but not as much as Coates. Few people are.

    She isn't Kimberlé Crenshaw or Michelle Alexander. She posts things online and has written some comics. I'm not insulting her but that's not the same thing as what Coates has written.
    Last edited by Kara Danvers; 05-10-2021 at 11:20 AM.

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