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  1. #466
    Phantom Zone Escapee manofsteel1979's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nelliebly View Post
    I have a lot of complex thoughts on this.

    I’m not at all against a Black man as Clark Kent but, as I’m not Black myself, I also recognize that whether or not the privilege, passing element and power dynamics inherent to his narrative actually ::work:: with a Black actor is not for me to decide. There are a lot of extremely brilliant Black fans who have made the case well for why they don’t actually think Clark Kent works as a dark skinned man specifically because of the assimilation and “hiding in plain sight” element to his story that is not afforded to Black men in this world because of the institutionalized racism that they still endure day in and day out. So while I personally would welcome any Actor....this isn’t my lane. This is not something where a non Black person’s opinion holds weight.

    Speaking of “Lane” though I do think that if they are serious about revamping Clark Kent’s narrative with a Black actor it is IMPERATIVE that Lois Lane also be cast as a Black woman and, frankly, she should be darker skinned than the actor who is cast as Clark.

    Casting Clark as a Black man but keeping Lois Lane white would be an insult on every level. There is a horrible history of denying Black women the role as “the one” and there are very few roles where dark skinned women truly get to be the “I love you until the end of time” partner. And there is a terrible history of Black women, in particular, being replaced with light skinned women both in fiction and in real life. So if this is truly something they are determined to do I truly hope they’ve thought it through regarding how it will impact Lois Lane as well. Because I saw a LOT of chatter on Twitter from people literally saying “ok I don’t really care what Superman looks like but is SHE also going to be Black because now you have my attention.” This could go phenomenally wrong if they don’t understand this.

    Mainly, I just have a lot of concerns about a studio with WB’s history and leadership tackling this kind of project when they still have not even publicly or privately apologized to Ray Fisher. When they fired both a Black director from The Flash movie and won’t move forward with Ava on New Gods. I just don’t trust these people. They aren’t doing this for any other reason than they are greedy and think this will make money. They are using Black people as tokens for their own egos and pocket books and that’s immoral and disgusting. I don’t trust WB in the state it’s in to handle the extremely complex issues that would come into play with this scenario unless they clean house first and issue some genuine apologies for the harm they’ve caused. Ray Fisher was fired from The Flash film. They sabotaged his career. They can’t be trusted with something this important and that’s the real issue.
    I agree with you 100 percent,especially in terms of casting a black Lois alongside a black Clark Kent IF...indeed this is going to be a racebent Clark and not ,say a version of Calvin Ellis or Val-Zod. Truth is we don't know that for certain yet,although I get the feeling that they will probably ultimately go with a Black Clark Kent. If that is the case,and they decide to adhere to the classical aspects to the character we've seen in all other media (the infant kalel raised by a loving human family, eventually moves to the big city,makes his claim as a journalist in his secret id) ,a black Lois Lane is essential.

    I also too am suspicious of WB’S motives given the Ray Fisher situation. They need to do better and a big part of that would be to acknowledge the problems that Ray and other cast members of JL had with Whedon and instead of continuing to cover their asses and pretend it was just misunderstandings and small matters, just admit,whether it was race based or not, that they fucked up, openly apologize to Ray Fisher ,Gal Gadot and others who had issues with Whedon ,and offer Ray his role on The Flash film back. It wouldn't fix everything and they would still be in a place of suspect, but it would at least be a first step.

    I am trying not to dismiss this reboot off hand. I myself am attempting to be cautiously optimistic. For all we know this could lead to a very special Superman tale for our times and might be a needed shot in the arm to revive the franchise on the big screen and In the public consciousness. There is a golden opportunity here.

    There is also the chance that this could also be what many suspect it is, a cynical cash grab and some way for WB to win brownie points in the current political and social climate at the expense of making a good movie and doing the Superman character and franchise justice,all the while not doing anything meaningful within the company to change the climate that allowed the recent situations that Fisher has brought to light.

    There's a way to honor both Superman and what he means to our pop culture and mythology WHILE telling a tale relevant to our times and to promote a message that all of us,especially our young people,need to hear. Like you and others though,im not sure WB can thread that needle. They've struggled to get basic classic Superman right the last 30 years or so on the big screen. It's a stretch to think they will be able to make a film that does both the idea of Superman,and the opportunity of the first non-White actor to wear that cape and that "S" Justice without damaging either. Hopefully all involved are able to rise to the occasion and give us something special.

    We will see i guess.
    Last edited by manofsteel1979; 05-07-2021 at 11:51 AM.
    When it comes to comics,one person's "fan-service" is another persons personal cannon. So by definition it's ALL fan service. Aren't we ALL fans?
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  2. #467
    (formerly "Superman") JAK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nelliebly View Post
    Mainly, I just have a lot of concerns about a studio with WB’s history and leadership tackling this kind of project when they still have not even publicly or privately apologized to Ray Fisher. When they fired both a Black director from The Flash movie and won’t move forward with Ava on New Gods. I just don’t trust these people. They aren’t doing this for any other reason than they are greedy and think this will make money. They are using Black people as tokens for their own egos and pocket books and that’s immoral and disgusting. I don’t trust WB in the state it’s in to handle the extremely complex issues that would come into play with this scenario unless they clean house first and issue some genuine apologies for the harm they’ve caused. Ray Fisher was fired from The Flash film. They sabotaged his career. They can’t be trusted with something this important and that’s the real issue.
    This. The rest of what you said, too, but this (as it all is connected to this). I do not trust WB, either.

    Also: I'm going to wait to fully judge any of it, of course, but I'm also really disappointed about the thought of Calvin or Val not getting any narrative oxygen. I was really, REALLY looking forward to that.
    Last edited by JAK; 05-07-2021 at 12:57 PM.
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  3. #468
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kara Danvers View Post
    Black Panther was too ambitious and complex for his first comic run.
    Which doesn't bode well if that's the response he got for a well loved and iconic superhero who is already black.

    Superman is complex enough and already dealing with some controversial adaptations as it is. This seems like courting disaster, especially with WB's questionable motives and competence as other posters have laid out.

  4. #469
    Amazing Member Kara Danvers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Which doesn't bode well if that's the response he got for a well loved and iconic superhero who is already black.

    Superman is complex enough and already dealing with some controversial adaptations as it is. This seems like courting disaster, especially with WB's questionable motives and competence as other posters have laid out.
    A good director can smooth out problems in the script and Coates won't stand by and let WB get in the way of a Superman project he's writing. He'll walk away if WB starts dragging it down.

    This isn't another Snyder movie. Assuming the worst is premature.

  5. #470
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kara Danvers View Post
    A good director can smooth out problems in the script and Coates won't stand by and let WB get in the way of a Superman project he's writing. He'll walk away if WB starts dragging it down.

    This isn't another Snyder movie. Assuming the worst is premature.
    Maybe assuming THE WORST is premature, but I don't think WB has really done a lot to earn the benefit of the doubt from us, either.

  6. #471
    Amazing Member Kara Danvers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    Maybe assuming THE WORST is premature, but I don't think WB has really done a lot to earn the benefit of the doubt from us, either.
    I will be right there with all of you if WB goes with a bad director like Snyder and starts meddling again but the director shortlist is incredible and there has been no word on WB telling Coates what to write.

    I don't trust WB but they aren't the creative minds on this movie, that will be Coates and the director.

  7. #472
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    Maybe assuming THE WORST is premature, but I don't think WB has really done a lot to earn the benefit of the doubt from us, either.
    Yeah, it's too early for anything to be for sure "the worst," but not to early to be skeptical. Especially as we had the previous films series get criticized for the hero brooding and being passive, while that seems to be a complaint about how Coates writes T'Challa (along with the execution of ideas about Wakanda).

  8. #473
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kara Danvers View Post
    I will be right there with all of you if WB goes with a bad director like Snyder and starts meddling again but the director shortlist is incredible and there has been no word on WB telling Coates what to write.

    I don't trust WB but they aren't the creative minds on this movie, that will be Coates and the director.
    I don't really trust Coates or WB on this one.

  9. #474
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kara Danvers View Post
    Black Panther was too ambitious and complex for his first comic run.
    How?

    If that was the case he should NOT have been given the book.

    Because Hudlin, Liss and Mayberry's first comic book runs were Black Panther and all of them did a better job than Coates.

    what choices to make for good black representation better than Ta-Nehisi Coates.
    No he doesn't.

    That Black Panther run says he's NOT.

    You don't make Wakanda into a third world country because you don't understand Black Panther and Wakanda. Even Cap America fans have complained about Coates.

    Yes Superman fans have every RIGHT to be concerned.

  10. #475
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kara Danvers View Post
    A good director can smooth out problems in the script and Coates won't stand by and let WB get in the way of a Superman project he's writing. He'll walk away if WB starts dragging it down.

    This isn't another Snyder movie. Assuming the worst is premature.
    Considering what I've heard about Coates' BP run, him walking away might be the most helpful thing for the reboot...

  11. #476
    Extraordinary Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nelliebly View Post
    I have a lot of complex thoughts on this.

    I’m not at all against a Black man as Clark Kent but, as I’m not Black myself, I also recognize that whether or not the privilege, passing element and power dynamics inherent to his narrative actually ::work:: with a Black actor is not for me to decide. There are a lot of extremely brilliant Black fans who have made the case well for why they don’t actually think Clark Kent works as a dark skinned man specifically because of the assimilation and “hiding in plain sight” element to his story that is not afforded to Black men in this world because of the institutionalized racism that they still endure day in and day out. So while I personally would welcome any Actor....this isn’t my lane. This is not something where a non Black person’s opinion holds weight.

    Speaking of “Lane” though I do think that if they are serious about revamping Clark Kent’s narrative with a Black actor it is IMPERATIVE that Lois Lane also be cast as a Black woman and, frankly, she should be darker skinned than the actor who is cast as Clark.

    Casting Clark as a Black man but keeping Lois Lane white would be an insult on every level. There is a horrible history of denying Black women the role as “the one” and there are very few roles where dark skinned women truly get to be the “I love you until the end of time” partner. And there is a terrible history of Black women, in particular, being replaced with light skinned women both in fiction and in real life. So if this is truly something they are determined to do I truly hope they’ve thought it through regarding how it will impact Lois Lane as well. Because I saw a LOT of chatter on Twitter from people literally saying “ok I don’t really care what Superman looks like but is SHE also going to be Black because now you have my attention.” This could go phenomenally wrong if they don’t understand this.

    Mainly, I just have a lot of concerns about a studio with WB’s history and leadership tackling this kind of project when they still have not even publicly or privately apologized to Ray Fisher. When they fired both a Black director from The Flash movie and won’t move forward with Ava on New Gods. I just don’t trust these people. They aren’t doing this for any other reason than they are greedy and think this will make money. They are using Black people as tokens for their own egos and pocket books and that’s immoral and disgusting. I don’t trust WB in the state it’s in to handle the extremely complex issues that would come into play with this scenario unless they clean house first and issue some genuine apologies for the harm they’ve caused. Ray Fisher was fired from The Flash film. They sabotaged his career. They can’t be trusted with something this important and that’s the real issue.
    You hit on some excellent points here and I can't say it better, so I'll instead take the low road because I so dearly miss it.

    A black Clark Kent is the least interesting permutation of events for me. I'm not angry, but I think both Calvin and Val afforded more insofar as the things that work for Clark can work for them but each also have their own unique angle and are free of the baggage the audience expects from the name "Clark Kent" and the obvious low-hanging sequel bait of an Into the Superverse where we meet all the other Supermen including the familiar one if they want to go that route. I just feel like instead of every possible unique take they went with the one they've proven they literally cannot get right.

    Furthermore, when (as said so well in the quoted post) WB is not exactly supporting their black creators, it feels a little weird to suddenly push this Superman project. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad that they're supporting their black creators in this endeavor, but when you cancel all the lower-profile stuff and hype one very big project, it seems less like a sincere call to addressing a systemic issue and more like virtue signalling. I don't want to feel that way, but I do. New Gods getting cancelled still bums me out. You could argue that it's the bigger swing-- and it is-- but if they're only going to take a swing when all eyes are looking, does it really feel sincere? Take the big swing, but also the base hits too.

  12. #477
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    Quote Originally Posted by manofsteel1979 View Post
    That's an important point people tend to forget. Snyder didn't have complete control over MOS. It definitely had his visual flair and the film's most controversial moment (Supes killing Zod) was largely his,but a lot of what MOS was is Nolan and Goyer. That movie feels like Batman Begins,but with Superman. Even down to the slower character building first two acts and a bombastic third act and a denouement setting up the "classic" status quo. (BATMAN BEGINS: Batman and Gordon meeting at the Bat signal, MOS: Clark in Glasses joining the Daily Planet.) Its with BvS that it sort of became Snyder's baby fully and it shows,for better or worse.
    Yeah, MOS definitely felt like ''Batman Begins with Superman''. Which is fitting, because Batman Begins loosely adapted the structure of the original Donner Superman movie.

    Quote Originally Posted by Last Son of Krypton View Post
    Behind Warner Bros.’ Search for a Black Superman

    When Warners announced in February that celebrated author Ta-Nehisi Coates is writing the screenplay and Abrams is producing, it did not address the matter of helming. But insiders say Warners and DC are committed to hiring a Black director to tackle what will be the first cinematic incarnation of Superman featuring a Black actor, with one source adding that putting Abrams at the helm would be “tone-deaf.”

    In a fitting twist, the director search is pitting DC against none other than Marvel. As Warners looks to fill its Superman vacancy, Marvel is on the hunt for a Blade helmer and is combing through the same list. But the question will come down to what kind of filmmaker Bad Robot and Warners want: an up-and-comer who can be backed by Abrams, who knows his way around tentpoles and franchises? Or an established filmmaker like a Barry Jenkins or a Ryan Coogler?

    The former list can include Creed II’s Steven Caple Jr., J.D. Dillard, Regina King — who got raves for her drama One Night in Miami — and Shaka King, who is popular at Warners thanks to best picture Oscar nominee Judas and the Black Messiah. Some potential directors have met with both studios for both films, even as one agent said the process was “phenomenally early.” Meanwhile, Coogler may be a nonstarter for either assignment given that he will be occupied with Black Panther: Wakanda Forever, which releases July 8, 2022.

    Coates isn’t expected to deliver his Superman script until midDecember. Likewise, Marvel isn’t rushing with Blade, whose start date was pushed from this September to July 2022, so that the studio can spend time working on the Stacy Osei-Kuffour-penned script.

    While the next Superman will likely land with a name director, the star could be a relative unknown, as was the case when Brandon Routh suited up for Bryan Singer’s 2006 Superman Returns and Henry Cavill donned the cape for Zack Snyder’s 2013 Man of Steel. Neither Superman Returns nor Man of Steel lived up to outsized expectations, with the former earning $391 million worldwide and the latter taking in $668 million. By contrast, James Wan’s Aquaman nabbed $1.15 billion in 2018 and Todd Phillips’ Joker scored $1.07 billion (and multiple Oscars).

    But establishing a new tone with the launch of the next Superman franchise is key to Warner Bros.’ DC film future. As such, little will remain of the so-called Snyderverse vision, which enjoyed its last hurrah with Snyder’s four-hour Justice League bowing on HBO Max in March. Among his hand-picked stars that remain are Gal Gadot (Wonder Woman), Jason Momoa (Aquaman) and Ezra Miller (The Flash).

    DC sees its upcoming Flash movie, which began production in April in London, as its way forward in this post-Snyder world. With the inclusion of such characters as Supergirl (Sasha Calle) and Michael Keaton’s Batman, one thing Flash does is set up DC with a multiverse that allows for many of these incarnations and story universes to co-exist and have superheroes interact. So far, every movie and TV show, with the exception of Matt Reeves’ The Batman, starring Robert Pattinson and set for release in March, HBO Max’s spinoff Gotham PD, and Joker and its planned sequel, will take place in the same universe.

    The Superman film appears to be moving onto its own track and won’t be part of the universe, as of now. Sources tell THR that Coates is crafting a Kal-El in the vein of the original Superman comics and will have the protagonist hail from Krypton and come to Earth. While the story is currently being crafted and many details could change, one option under consideration is for the film to be a 20th century period piece.


    Full article: https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/mo...ie-1234947599/
    It seems like a mishmash of a couple of different ideas which, individually, I'd have loved to have seen.

    I'd have loved to have seen, for instance, a big-screen adaptation of the Siegal/Shuster vision of Superman set in 1938.

    And if they were going for a black Superman, I'd loved to have seen President Calvin Ellis.

    But it seems they've tossed these ideas into a blender - so we're gonna get a black Clark Kent based on the Siegal/Shuster Superman set in 1938? (I mean, they haven't said Clark Kent, but let's face it, that's probably what they're going for, especially with all the ''in the vein of the original comics'' stuff).

    It seems like they're taking two separate ideas, which could be great reboots of the franchise in their own right, and mixing them up. And in the process, they'll do justice to neither.

    If they want to do Golden Age Superman as a black man, ''Luke Cage'' style, the present-day makes far more sense in any case. Imagine a black man in 1938 doing all the stuff in Action Comics # 1 - breaking into the governor's mansion, beating up a wife-beater, threatening to drop corrupt politicians from flagpoles...come to think of it, it will be an interesting kind of alternate reality but its probably not going to be recognizable as a ''Superman'' film - no more than Brightburn is a Superman film.

  13. #478
    Extraordinary Member DragonPiece's Avatar
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    Honestly, one thing I'm confused about is how they aren't sure what time period the movie takes place in. A movie about a black superman in the 40s would be extremely different to one in the current day.

  14. #479
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    Quote Originally Posted by DragonPiece View Post
    Honestly, one thing I'm confused about is how they aren't sure what time period the movie takes place in. A movie about a black superman in the 40s would be extremely different to one in the current day.
    Yeah, that concerns me. It almost feels like the only thing they're clear about with regards to this movie is ''Superman needs to be black, and we need a black director''.

    Oh well, if clickbait and PR is what they're after, they're certainly gonna be getting a lot of it.

  15. #480
    Phantom Zone Escapee manofsteel1979's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bat39 View Post
    Yeah, that concerns me. It almost feels like the only thing they're clear about with regards to this movie is ''Superman needs to be black, and we need a black director''.

    Oh well, if clickbait and PR is what they're after, they're certainly gonna be getting a lot of it.
    Yeah,the more I think about it,the more I'm concerned that this is just a big PR stunt to distract from the whole Whedon fiasco that just keeps fermenting. Gal Gadot confirmed in an interview that Whedon did threaten her career when she refused to shoot a scene the way he wanted.

    This thing right now seems less driven by wanting to do something new with the Superman franchise and its more about WB and to a lesser extent DC saying "look! We aren't a toxic culture! We aren't racist and sexist! See? We're making a black Superman movie with a black actor,writter and director!!! We aren't racist! You hear us? WE AREN'T RACIST!!! Stop talking about the whole problematic chapter around Whedon,Johns and Berg and what occurred with Justice League! Ignore the fact a shocking number of black and Asian characters and women's roles were eliminated or downgraded in Whedon's cut. We gave you all the Snyder cut. Please shut up and pretend all of that stuff didn't happen. We did! Everything is fine. It's all fine here. How are you? "

    "Did we mention Black Superman??? Because we're doing Black Superman! Please love us again."

    I hope the movie itself ends up being good or great. Their motives for making this feels....off to say the least.

    And for the record I don't think WB as a whole is inherently racist or sexist,but they let their greed and fear and panic over Justice League to facilitate a white washing and cover up of a problematic situation and to protect a guy (Whedon) that wasn't worth protecting. It created a perception that is going to be hard to shake now and it seems they are doubling down on being radio silent and not admitting that they messed up. If they think virtue signaling a black Superman is going to make people forget or overlook this stuff,they're delusional.

    They need to very openly apologize to the JL cast,especially Ray Fisher and Gal Gadot, openly and very publicly cut ties with Whedon for any possible future projects,Johns and Berg need to apologize and explain themselves. it would send a message that Warners takes that whole fiasco seriously and they are no longer going to tolerate such behavior. In my opinion, it's the only way they can hope to turn the page. Otherwise, moves and projects like this one will be seen through an eye of skepticism. It was anyway given the nature of our society and fandom,but it seems like very few at the moment are happy and excited about this upcoming movie and people from all sides of the spectrum are questioning WB's motives here.
    Last edited by manofsteel1979; 05-09-2021 at 04:01 AM.
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