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  1. #241
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I think we need to move on from Christopher Reeve as much as we need to move on from deconstructive takes. The reverence for that take is partially why the character is seen as corny and outdated. It was good for its time, but there is material both before and after that should be drawn from instead to mix and match. The Golden Age comics, the Fleischer cartoons, All-Star, Maggin's characterization, New 52 Action, etc.
    Superman Smashes the Klan, Man and Superman, Birthright, and American Alien (I know Landis is a trash human being, but I still like that story) are a few I'd add onto that list.

  2. #242
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I guess we can hope for different results from TROS if Abrams isn't directing, but this isn't a combo that is building confidence.
    ...what the heck is TROS?

  3. #243
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    There’s nothing inherently wrong with race-swapping characters who aren’t defined by race. This iron clad close mindedness some are displaying here is nothing short of chucke-worthy. So...if I fancast a black actor as Reed Richards are you going to argue that I shouldn’t because you can simply cast them as other comic characters originally created as black as an alternative? What if I fancast the actor not because of a diversity agenda or anything like that but simply because I thought they were the best actor for the role regardless of race? I understand and respect the argument that non-white comic book characters should get the media bigger spotlight and there are fair amount of POC roles in that world - that’s true, but that doesn’t mean we should be narrow minded and preclude non-white actors from getting a shot at roles originally created as white especially if they are right for the part and the role in question was never created with the purpose of racial or ethnic representation in mind. We can absolutely do both: promote and push original non-white characters to the forefront, but also recognize that a lot of white comic characters are not defined by race, and you don’t always need a white actor to be the best person to play a role originally created as a white character.

    If I were to go with the logic some are using here then I shouldn’t cast great actor Jeffrey Wright as James Gordon because “casting him as another original black character is the better alternative to race-bending.” Which is just a weak argument to me with some nasty underlying implications. Again, as with the Reed Richards example, what if Jeffrey Wright was chosen for the role because of his strength as an actor who could embody all the core elements that make Gordon, Gordon? Sure, he could play a comic character originally created as black but I feel there’s very few roles better for him to play than an iconic character like James Gordon, and casting him as an original black character is not better than ‘race-bending’. If I have to race change Gordon to allow an actor of Wright’s immense talent to play him then so be it. I get why some make that argument but it’s really not the compelling argument you think it is.

    And I say this as someone who isn’t all that keen on possibly changing Superman’s looks racially.
    Last edited by Amadeus Arkham; 03-01-2021 at 11:59 PM.
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  4. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    ...what the heck is TROS?
    He’s referring to The Rise Of Skywalker, which is the last Star Wars movie J.J Abrams directed.
    Last edited by Amadeus Arkham; 03-01-2021 at 11:51 PM.
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  5. #245
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amadeus Arkham View Post
    He’s referring to The Rise Of Skywalker, which is the last Star Wars movie J.J Abrams directed.
    Ah. I only saw The Force Awakens, Rogue One, and Solo. The other two I heard too much negativity and toxicity over so I'm dodging those altogether.

  6. #246
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amadeus Arkham View Post
    There’s nothing inherently wrong with race-swapping characters who aren’t defined by race. This iron clad close mindedness some are displaying here is nothing short of chucke-worthy. So...if I fancast a black actor as Reed Richards are you going to argue that I shouldn’t because you can simply cast them as other comic characters originally created as black as an alternative? What if I fancast the actor not because of a diversity agenda or anything like that but simply because I thought they were the best actor for the role regardless of race? I understand and respect the argument that non-white characters should be shown more spotlight and that’s true, but that doesn’t mean we should be narrow minded and preclude non-white actors from getting a shot at roles originally created as white especially if they are right for the part and the role in question was never created with the purpose of racial or ethnic representation in mind. We can absolutely do both: promote and push original non-white characters to the forefront, but also recognize that a lot of white comic characters are not defined by race, and you don’t always need to find a white actor to be the best fit to play the role.

    If I were to go with the logic some are using here then I shouldn’t cast great actor Jeffrey Wright as James Gordon because “casting him as another original black character is the better alternative to race-bending.” Which is just a weak argument to me with some nasty underlying implications. Again, as with the Reed Richards example, what if Jeffrey Wright was chosen for the role because of his strength as an actor who could embody all the core elements that make Gordon, Gordon? Sure, he could play a comic character originally created as black but I feel there’s very few roles better for him to play than an iconic character like James Gordon, and casting him as an original black character is not better than ‘race-bending’. If I have to race change Gordon to allow an actor of Wright’s immense talent to play him then so be it. I get why some make that argument but it’s really not the compelling argument you think it is.

    And I say this as someone who isn’t all that keen on possibly changing Superman’s looks racially.
    Here's the thing though - people can disagree. I still just don't like race-bending in general. The kids in that Last Airbender movie should have been Asian (not that that would have helped from what I read of the reviews...). Clark Kent is white, Calvin Ellis is black, and that guy on Gods and Monsters was hispanic (I can't remember his not-Superman identity...). This is just how I feel, this is just my opinion, and it's as valid as yours. Also, why chuckle because people don't think what you do? I don't chuckle because you disagree with me.

  7. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    In the jungle while hunting the King Wakanda finds a white baby , the King raise the baby as his son. It is fiction, yes I think white character could be black panther but I explain Asian or Latino version would be better because you could adapt it differently.
    The nation will revolt....it's a monarchy which works on royalty of blood. If the residing king n queen are baren with adopted kids....when they die the crown with go to the sister or brother or niece or nephew or uncle or aunt of the king. The adopted kids with still have nobility status not NOT enough to rule a monarchy.

    If queen Elizabeth of Britain never had kids but had adopted....the above stated scenario is exactly what will happen. It's a protection against any potentiality of conflicting loyalties which would make the monarchy and kingdom vulnerable particularly when the adopted kids find out their true parentage.

    Why do u think Tchalla is king of Wakanda despite White Wolf (his adopted white sibling) being older than Tchalla? White Wolf was adopted before Tchalla we born. To rule a monarchy u need to have blood of the leading monarch family.

  8. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    That's what solo films are for - they can make a Vixen movie, a Black Lightning movie, a movie about any black character. Heck, Static is getting a movie. MCU did Black Panther. That's better than race bending.




    Eh, it's what comic book fans on forums bring up - if that were true everywhere Supergirl, Black Lightning, and Batwoman wouldn't have gotten shows.



    Five years is five years - now is the time they're considering racebending Superman instead of pushing an actual POC character.
    Agreed!!!!

  9. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Here's the thing though - people can disagree. I still just don't like race-bending in general. The kids in that Last Airbender movie should have been Asian (not that that would have helped from what I read of the reviews...). Clark Kent is white, Calvin Ellis is black, and that guy on Gods and Monsters was hispanic (I can't remember his not-Superman identity...). This is just how I feel, this is just my opinion, and it's as valid as yours. Also, why chuckle because people don't think what you do? I don't chuckle because you disagree with me.
    I mean no offense, I’m kind of using hyperbole when I say I chuckled. Perhaps my wording could’ve been better. Anyway, that’s totally fine with if you don’t like race-swapping. I respect your opinion, totally I just think race-swapping isn’t inherently a negative thing that you’re making it out to be. I understand where you’re coming from when you’re saying more characters like Static and Icon should be pushed instead of race-bending characters originally created as white, but I think that statement comes with the assumption that a non-white actor is only cast in the white role because of a need to push diversity, and while that’s a part of it, I also think it’s a result of the filmmakers just casting the best actor for the part regardless of race. Jeffrey Wright as Gordon is brilliant casting as he has just the right amount of gravitas and grit that a character like Gordon needs to do him justice. To me, it’s a role he was born to play and there’s little need to cast him as another comic character who was originally black instead of white. He’s perfect casting.

    And I agree with you on Last Airbender but thing is...white-washing characters originally meant to be representation for Asians, especially when it comes to dark skinned Inuitians is always going to be far more problematic than casting non-white actors to play a role originally created as white but with no specific intention of race or ethnic representation behind the role’s creation.
    Last edited by Amadeus Arkham; 03-02-2021 at 01:05 AM.
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  10. #250
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amadeus Arkham View Post
    I mean no offense, I’m kind of using hyperbole when I say I chuckled. Perhaps my wording could’ve been better. Anyway, that’s totally fine with if you don’t like race-swapping. I respect your opinion, totally I just think race-swapping isn’t inherently a negative thing that you’re making it out to be. I understand where you’re coming from when you’re saying more characters like Static and Icon should be pushed instead of race-bending characters originally created as white, but I think that statement comes with the assumption that a non-white actor is only cast in the white role because of a need to push diversity, and while that’s a part of it, I also think it’s a result of the filmmakers just casting the best actor for the part regardless of race. Jeffrey Wright as Gordon is brilliant casting as he has just the right amount of gravitas and grit that a character like Gordon needs to do him justice. To me, it’s a role he was born to play and there’s little need to cast him as another comic character who was originally black instead of white. He’s perfect casting.

    And I agree with you on Last Airbender but thing is...white-washing characters originally meant to be representation for Asians, especially when it comes to dark skinned Inuitians is always going to be far more problematic than casting non-white actors to play a role originally created as white but with no specific intention of race or ethnic representation behind the role’s creation.
    The thing is, if this is true, the racebending has nothing to do with the filmmakers casting the best actor in the role - this hasn't been cast yet. The execs, apparently, want a black Superman which is what will influence the casting - not casting the best actor influencing the character's race. Because WB doesn't know what to do with him, and think somehow racebending is the solution to their problem, instead of finding the right talent.

    And white-washing, racebending, I can dislike both things. I'd like a future where neither is used, and representation is natural and widespread. Where a Superman movies spins off a Steel solo while Static is getting his swan song film after 5-or-so movies ala Logan in a whole Milestone universe continuity that's fifteen movies deep, and a Batman family movie has introduced Signal. All while the white heroes, Asian heroes, hispanic heroes, and so on are out there on both the small and big screen. We should be working towards that.

  11. #251
    The King Fears NO ONE! Triniking1234's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    He doesn't have to like it, He has to understand it and why it works. And seeing the superman movies and couple of shows is enough to get why superman works.

    I mean Coates isn't going to think Superman is guy who snap necks or would let his dad die to protect his identity. I think he is already ahead of what we have know.
    The other user's concern was that he hates the character, which he doesn't. However, it would be better idea to include someone who has a better grasp of the character than someone who crammed before the test .

    Quote Originally Posted by CTTT View Post
    Frank Miller really was toxic for DC. He wrote a deconstruction of the Batman character with TDKR and since 1986 creators in shows movies and comics feel like writing a deconstruction of other characters like Superman/Batman etc. instead of going back to what made them popular in the first place. Christopher Nolan same thing. Look at Superman 1978 for inspiration. Bryan Singer even tried to get it right with Superman Returns by using Superman and Superman II as a base. Enough deconstructing. Just keep the essence of the characters please.
    Is that what happened? Dark Knight Returns was supposed to a last adventure story and I'm pretty no one tried to "deconstruct" Batman until years after DKR.
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  12. #252
    New old guy Surf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    The thing is, if this is true, the racebending has nothing to do with the filmmakers casting the best actor in the role - this hasn't been cast yet. The execs, apparently, want a black Superman which is what will influence the casting - not casting the best actor influencing the character's race. Because WB doesn't know what to do with him, and think somehow racebending is the solution to their problem, instead of finding the right talent.
    Waitaminute, NONE of the underlined have EVER been the case in Hollywood. 'Best Actor' as a jumping point is not even a tangible metric, that also is not the merit the movies are even ancillary based around. Daniel Day Lewis (or fuckin' Robert Redford, Denzel, whomever you feel is a standout) can only be in so many movies, that's even assuming most projects are even looking for him. Which 95% of projects do and are not. Bankability, scheduling, agents, casting firms and studios get it together who and how they would like to market a picture to make that return. Let's not give the movies industry any more credit than they clearly don't deserve outright. Hell, this extends to Government, politics and corporations too.

    Best and brightest extends to very little in this country and even less if you are not willing to work with considerably much less than best or bright.
    Beefing up the old home security, huh?
    You bet yer ass.

  13. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    The thing is, if this is true, the racebending has nothing to do with the filmmakers casting the best actor in the role - this hasn't been cast yet. The execs, apparently, want a black Superman which is what will influence the casting - not casting the best actor influencing the character's race. Because WB doesn't know what to do with him, and think somehow racebending is the solution to their problem, instead of finding the right talent.
    By the way, we have no idea if this project will have any actual race-swapping as it’s unclear they’ll be using the Clark Kent character in this reboot. They could easily be using Val Zod and Calvin Ellis instead of Clark or go for an entirely new character for Superman. So this issue of race-swapping could prove to be moot for a project that potentially could have none. Until Clark Kent is confirmed to be used in this movie then this conversation is actually pretty moot.

    And white-washing, racebending,I can dislike both things. I'd like a future where neither is used, and representation is natural and widespread. Where a Superman movies spins off a Steel solo while Static is getting his swan song film after 5-or-so movies ala Logan in a whole Milestone universe continuity that's fifteen movies deep, and a Batman family movie has introduced Signal. All while the white heroes, Asian heroes, hispanic heroes, and so on are out there on both the small and big screen. We should be working towards that.
    You can dislike both things and you’re entitled to your opinion obviously. If you oppose a black Superman simply because there’s better alternatives to racial representation than changing the races of established white characters than that’s fine. I have an issue with you pretending there’s an equivalency between white-washing non-white characters explicitly created to represent an underrepresented ethnic entity, and race-swapping a character like say like Plastic Man to be black. We should be working for more media exposure for POC characters who haven’t gotten their due with superhero characters however I think with some cases of casting, it doesn’t always need for a white actor to play a role created as a white characters.
    Last edited by Amadeus Arkham; 03-02-2021 at 10:11 AM.
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  14. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by 80sbaby View Post
    If WB really understood why Black Panther was so huge, they would easily capitalize on the Milestone characters, as opposed to (presumably) "race swap" Superman. Static, Icon/Rocket and Hardware could all be HUGE with the black community and set them apart from Marvel's comic universe. Unfortunately, they clearly do not understand why BP made over $1 billion, so here we are.
    The problem is they don't own Milestone, and there were legal disputes about the ownership going on.

    But I'm sceptical if the hype around black Panther can really be recreated, even by Black Panther 2.

  15. #255
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amadeus Arkham View Post
    If I were to go with the logic some are using here then I shouldn’t cast great actor Jeffrey Wright as James Gordon because “casting him as another original black character is the better alternative to race-bending.”
    The obvious candidate for an iconic black character would actually be Lucius Fox.

    Btw. how about casting Lucius with a white character, there isn't really anything about him that really requires that he is black...

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