‘Superman’ Reboot Being Produced By JJ Abrams With Ta-Nehisi Coates Writing

[Killerbee911]

I understand that there's tons of white superheroes and much fewer minority superheroes, but the idea that white superheroes and white people should be erased as a way to fix that has a subtext that's really unsettling.

But that is exactly how you fix the problem, There is no subtext to be had here they are too many white characters for other characters to get shine the need to be less. If you outright, replace white characters with new characters people will complain, So they try the middle solution of making some of these characters a minority keeping the character around in a form. We aren't talking about real people we are talking about fictional characters and the fictional world, If you remove Wally West he isn't dying, In fact if you remove Wally West, They are still 4 or 5 white Flash characters running around. You remove Tim Drake, They are still 3 or 4 white robin characters running around. And if you are looking at erasure then white characters for years have been erasing minority characters and why is that okay?

I will address the other thing many white American characters race has zero impact to the character, While dam near every black character race and culture are things that are brought up in their stories. It took years( I mean decades) for Bruce Wanye and Captain America to be Irish. It is easy to talk about replacing race when it is not part of their story in a meaningful fashion. They are very few minority characters like say Blade whose most of their history and stories race doesn't play a strong part.

Hawkeye, Bruce Banner, Hank Pym, Oliver Queen, Hal Jordan, Barry Allen what is their background in terms of culture? These characters have been around for decades and culturally you can't tell anything about these characters. If was Iceman, Magneto, Kitty, Ben Grimm, Captain America it is a different story. Sorry a lot of white characters are blank slate when it comes to things about culture and race barely plays a component in their story. Nobody is saying "the white race" doesn't matter but it is true that many white characters were created and existed without any care for things culturally. That isn't the same for most minority characters and I can find stories in most case where race is a factor.

[Killerbee911]

Frankly it makes no difference if black Superman is Clark Kent or Val Zod or Kal el. Zero

Actually it does make a difference beyond being white was how he was presented for years. Clark Kent is story of rural couple from middle America Kansas raise a kid on a farm. While that could apply to several races, Clark Kent story is very much story of white kid growing up on farm in rural America. Whiteness is general part of his story because that sub section of country is pretty much that. You can't do Clark Kent story and change his race and not understand that would change things and his experiences.

You can make the adjustment necessary but it does make a difference to his story. A black family owning a decent size farm in Kansas feels as alien as literally alien flying around with powers, If you understand that part of the country. The framework of his experience would be much different as black person.

[Vakanai]

But that is exactly how you fix the problem, There is no subtext to be had here they are too many white characters for other characters to get shine the need to be less. If you outright, replace white characters with new characters people will complain, So they try the middle solution of making some of these characters a minority keeping the character around in a form. We aren't talking about real people we are talking about fictional characters and the fictional world, If you remove Wally West he isn't dying, In fact if you remove Wally West, They are still 4 or 5 white Flash characters running around. You remove Tim Drake, They are still 3 or 4 white robin characters running around. And if you are looking at erasure then white characters for years have been erasing minority characters and why is that okay?

I will address the other thing many white American characters race has zero impact to the character, While dam near every black character race and culture are things that are brought up in their stories. It took years( I mean decades) for Bruce Wanye and Captain America to be Irish. It is easy to talk about replacing race when it is not part of their story in a meaningful fashion. They are very few minority characters like say Blade whose most of their history and stories race doesn't play a strong part.

Hawkeye, Bruce Banner, Hank Pym, Oliver Queen, Hal Jordan, Barry Allen what is their background in terms of culture? These characters have been around for decades and culturally you can't tell anything about these characters. If was Iceman, Magneto, Kitty, Ben Grimm, Captain America it is a different story. Sorry a lot of white characters are blank slate when it comes to things about culture and race barely plays a component in their story. Nobody is saying "the white race" doesn't matter but it is true that many white characters were created and existed without any care for things culturally. That isn't the same for most minority characters and I can find stories in most case where race is a factor.

Disagree. Miles as Spider-Man instead of Peter, there's a Super-Man of China (I know his series is cut - but tell me WB isn't going to go for that China money some day with this...), Naomi is getting a show, Static a movie, Jaime Reyes a movie, the MCU could straight up make new characters and have them become big at this point, etc. There's zero reason to racebend characters. We can get minority characters out there just fine no making Clark Kent black needed - there are black non-Clark Supermen, and the multiverse is becoming more of a thing.

[Killerbee911]

People bitched complained when they first used Miles, In fact there was mass moaning again when Miles game got announced. In terms of majors and thing actually made We are sitting in 2021 with

1 Black Superhero movie in Black Panther(2 if you count Blade)
2 female lead movies Cap Marvel and Wonder woman
2 Shows Luke Cage and Black Lighting

That is awful. That is not just fine, We are in this situation because comic fans and comic companies value older characters over anything else. I can pull stuff people whining about Naomi being on the Justice League and this is the right type of usage. You get racebending because fan whine just as hard about new characters and legacy character being used. Racebending is the middle solution in the companies mind to add diversity and still use old popular characters.

Anyways the comic world should reflect the real world numbers that is all that needs to happens. Yeah they should use new and legacy characters but it doesn't happen and people jump up to praise token usage doesn't help infact it helps the problem continues. So yeah you are going to get racebending until they try and successful use other characters which does not happen. I can bet you if that DC announce an Icon movie they would be fans crying about where is the Superman movie why are they using this 2nd rate character instead of the Iconic classic and more popular character.

There is very much a reason for race bending because there is a refusal for other characters to be accepted in important roles. And the proof is in the results which I posted up there but at least there is a little light on horizon with MCU. But there is very much a cycle of

- You should use New Characters, We don't want new characters give us the old characters
-We are fine with Legacy characters, You can't use the legacy characters over the original character
-Okay fine we are racebending original character, Give us the new characters and legacy minority characters instead

And nothing ever changes which is why we have so few stuff.Again the comic world should reflect the real world numbers that is all that needs to happens.

[Amadeus Arkham]

Disagree. Miles as Spider-Man instead of Peter, there's a Super-Man of China (I know his series is cut - but tell me WB isn't going to go for that China money some day with this...), Naomi is getting a show, Static a movie, Jaime Reyes a movie, the MCU could straight up make new characters and have them become big at this point, etc. There's zero reason to racebend characters. We can get minority characters out there just fine no making Clark Kent black needed - there are black non-Clark Supermen, and the multiverse is becoming more of a thing.

Eh... that reads a little too close-minded for my taste. I do have to agree with the poster that race with a lot of white characters aren’t that integral to their character. For example, I would not mind if Reed or most of the FF were cast as black or non-whites(except maybe Ben Grimm because he’s Jewish) since they aren’t really defined by their race in the comics. For myself, it’s not so much about changing the race for diversity sake, it’s really a matter of keeping an open-mind when it comes to casting for roles that don’t really call for race-accurate casting. If I was a casting director I would ask myself in that case, “Is this actor the best actor for the role regardless of race?” Kingsley Ben Adir is my top choice to play Reed Richards in the MCU - not because I specifically want a black Reed Richards, but more because he’s a great actor that I think is a good fit for the role regardless of race, and I think would embody the role better than someone like say a white actor like John Krasinski(who’s been fancast in that role to death at this point). That’s not to say every white role are always open for ‘colorblind’ casting but more often with traditionally white characters created in the 40’s and 60’s that weren’t created with that specific purpose of being representation for an underrepresented group it’s actually more easier to race-swap. You can’t convince me that Reed Richards has to only be played by a white man any more than you can convince me James Bond has to only be played by a white person. I’m sure we’ll agree to disagree on this point, since I know I’m not changing your mind on this. Just thought I offer my perspective.

[Vakanai]

People bitched when first used Miles, In fact there was mass moaning again when Miles game got announced. Those movies or show aren't thing I am not counting anything until they are released.

So? People bitched - but it worked! Now we have Peter and Miles as popular mainstream superheroes - that's better than making Peter black and Miles non-existent.

In terms of majors We are sitting in 2021 with

1 Black Superhero movie Black Panther
2 female lead movies Cap Marvel and Wonder woman
2 Shows Luke Cage and Black Lighting

That is awful.Please do not come with nonsense that they are doing just fine, We are in this situation because comic fans and comic companies value older characters over anything else. I can pull stuff people whinning about Naomi being on the Justice League and this is the right type of usage. You get racebending because fan whine just as hard about new characters and legacy character being used. Racebending is the middle solution in the companies mind.

Or you ignore the whiny bitches. Cyborg is popular with kids because of the cartoons. Static and Blue Beetle are getting movies. Naomi a CW show. Yeah, some racist stuck in the pasts are gonna bitch about all that, but as long as WB goes through with it and ignore the whiners and make these media projects good they'll grow in popularity. Racebending isn't the solution, pissing on the notion that new characters can't make it big in other media because of social media whiners is the solution.

Anyways the comic world should reflect the real world numbers that is all that needs to happens. Yeah they should use new and legacy characters but it doesn't happen and then people jump up to praise token usage and problem continues. So yeah you are going to get racebending until the try and successful use other characters. But I can bet if that DC announce an Icon movie they would be fans crying about where is the Superman movie why are they using this 2nd rate character instead of the Iconic classic and more popular character. People complain about Cyborg in the Justice League as well.

Comics aren't the big deal anymore - they're the springboard to wider media, that's it. TV/Streaming/Films with these characters is key.
Also, you seem to place way to much emphasis on people complaining online - that really doesn't matter. Least not if it's just racists poo-pooing on new characters because they hate representation - they'll bitch no matter what, **** them.
We do agree that it should reflect today's diversity.

There is very much a reason for race bending because there is a refusal for other characters to be accepted in import roles. And the proof is in the results which I posted up there but at least there is a little light on horizon with MCU

And I'm still not convinced of that. Black Panther, Into the Spider-Verse, Luke Cage, Black Lightning, upcoming Static, Blue Beetle, Naomi stuff. All are proving you don't need to racebend characters to get more representation out there. Racebending just seems like the wrong way to go with that. My opinion.

They're awful numbers and that's not fine - but they're successful and should be pushed.

[Killerbee911]

They're awful numbers and that's not fine - but they're successful and should be pushed.

I agree with what you are saying for the most part but I am explaining why Racebending is a thing. To keep it simple you either racebend importance or push new character importance. If you push Naomi as the most important character DC fan will throw hissy fit, If you push Superman as the most important character fans will whine about him being black but won't mind him being the most important character.

Aquaman proves that racebending is fine and before anyone goes Jason is part white, Jason is clearly of Hawaiian and Polynesian descent and looks nothing like the comic book character. As you said DC just needs to ignore the whiners a let billion dollar property happen. Please explain to me how Aquaman being a Polynesian man hurt anything?

I would prefer that companies push new concepts I am explaining the fanbase like to turn on new characters when they feel they are a threat to old characters. And companies view new characters failing as them not being popular and old character failing as bad story or execution of the concept. That is where racebending comes in their minds. What is the answer? Well they are enough middle ground characters that exist like John Stewart, Vixen, Mr. Terrific, Black Lighting, Cyborg, etc that have years of comic history so they are fine those fans and a have level popularity. Those are character who should be pushed as important but you can't have short leash which is a huge issue in this topic.

Again the comic world should reflect the real world numbers that is all that needs to happens I am keep saying that because nothing is crazy being asked for they should be A-list characters from a wide variety of backgrounds .

[Vakanai]

I agree with what you are saying for the most part but I am explaining why Racebending is a thing. To keep it simple you either racebend importance or push new character importance. If you push Naomi as the most important character DC fan will throw hissy fit, If you push Superman as the most important character fans will whine about him being black but won't mind him being the most important character.

Aquaman proves that racebending is fine and before anyone goes Jason is part white, Jason is clearly of Hawaiian and Polynesian descent and looks nothing like the comic book character. As you said DC just needs to ignore the whiners a let billion dollar property happen. Please explain to me how Aquaman being a Polynesian man hurt anything?

I would prefer that companies push new concepts I am explaining the fanbase like to turn on new characters. And companies view new characters failing as them not being popular and old character failing as bad story or execution of the concept. That is where racebending comes in their minds. What is the answer? Well they are enough middle ground characters that exist like John Stewart, Vixen, Mr. Terrific, Black Lighting, Cyborg, etc that have years of comic history so they are fine those fans and a have level popularity. Those are character who should be pushed as important but you can't have short leash which is a huge issue in this topic.

Again the comic world should reflect the real world numbers that is all that needs to happens I am keep saying that because nothing is crazy being asked for they should be A-list characters from a wide variety of backgrounds .

Why do you have to push a character as most important? Just push Superman without racebending him alongside POC characters like Jaime and Static and Naomi and Vixen. It's not either or - you can push new and old characters, and who cares who is most "important"? As long as they're all well done.

I'm not saying Aquaman being Polynesian did hurt anything - that doesn't mean I have to think racebending is good or they should keep doing it. They could have cast him as another hero. But that's pointless now, it's in the past and it worked brilliantly. But again, doesn't mean that's the path forward over pushing characters that are already of different races.

You keep talking about new characters failing, but here's the thing - they failed in the comic books! That has nothing to do with the movies and tv. They haven't failed (in recent history) on the screen. So their book got cancelled, put them up on the screen! And yes, John Stewart, Vixen, Mr. Terrific, Black Lighting, Cyborg should get movies.

[Killerbee911]

Why do you have to push a character as most important? Just push Superman without racebending him alongside POC characters like Jaime and Static and Naomi and Vixen. It's not either or - you can push new and old characters, and who cares who is most "important"? As long as they're all well done. .

Most important was just an example but being important and in meaningful part of the story that is a big thing. It needs to be point out because that is a big part of the issue, War Machine and Falcon were well done, Monica in Wandavision is well done, Nick Fury in Avengers movies was well done. Being well done can still leave you as side character not getting meaningful story. Yes that needs to be stressed as point because someone will point to Cyborg or Falcon in movies say "Hey look you were represented in a movie" or why are you complaining you have Nick Fury, Black Panther, war machine, falcon, Okoye, shuri, Wong, Valkyrie are in the movies. And problem isn't that there no representation they have done a good job of filling side characters and bit pieces in stories the problem is at top of the food chain.

You keep talking about new characters failing, but here's the thing - they failed in the comic books! That has nothing to do with the movies and tv. They haven't failed (in recent history) on the screen. So their book got cancelled, put them up on the screen! And yes, John Stewart, Vixen, Mr. Terrific, Black Lighting, Cyborg should get movies.

I talk about characters failing because that is the excuse not use them in movies and that is excuse that will be used after the failure in the movie realm. If Cyborg fails it would be because he wasn't that popular, If John Stewart fails it would be because they should have use Hal Jordan. And I am bring this stuff up because that is what people say when you mention a character should get a film.

Anyways maybe after this MCU run stuff will get look at differently Blade, Ms. Marvel, War Machine, Riri Williams, Falcon, Shang Chi, Nick Fury along with Black Panther, Captain Marvel, Wandavision and Black Widow. And you should praise Marvel for that least but conventional wisdom is never replace your big characters and fans/Marvel itself seem to push that and DC pushing a black Superman is from that type of thinking. Hopefully after next five years we aren't still having this convo.

[Frobisher]

Superman can’t be black. He’s an alien, and aliens look and sound like white Europeans.

[Killerbee911]

Superman can’t be black. He’s an alien, and aliens look and sound like white Europeans.

Also mermaids as well

[j9ac9k]

Also mermaids as well

And don't forget God.

[Arsenal]

All I really care about at this point is that the final product is good and enjoyable. Assuming this goes anywhere and Supes ends up being a POC, I’d prefer him not to be Clark but it’s hardly a deal breaker if it is.

[Castle]

Superman can’t be black. He’s an alien, and aliens look and sound like white Europeans.

Hmm, I remember this same argument about Goku in the Dragon Ball movie that Goku should not be American but Japanese and the argument was, Goku was an alien so any race could play him.

Some characters should just not be makeovered. Superman can be black but Clark Kent should not be. why obsess over clark's skin when there are other awesome DC Black characters?

I remember the disappointment when DC chose Hal and not Jon to lead the GL movie. There is more to do with the original black characters than the race swapped ones.


Also think of the long term effects, USA right now is hot water divided on topics like race if that affects the movie and it flops. DC may not want to make any more black leading movies for a long time.

[Comic-Reader Lad]

But that is exactly how you fix the problem, There is no subtext to be had here they are too many white characters for other characters to get shine the need to be less. If you outright, replace white characters with new characters people will complain, So they try the middle solution of making some of these characters a minority keeping the character around in a form. We aren't talking about real people we are talking about fictional characters and the fictional world, If you remove Wally West he isn't dying, In fact if you remove Wally West, They are still 4 or 5 white Flash characters running around. You remove Tim Drake, They are still 3 or 4 white robin characters running around. And if you are looking at erasure then white characters for years have been erasing minority characters and why is that okay?

I will address the other thing many white American characters race has zero impact to the character, While dam near every black character race and culture are things that are brought up in their stories. It took years( I mean decades) for Bruce Wanye and Captain America to be Irish. It is easy to talk about replacing race when it is not part of their story in a meaningful fashion. They are very few minority characters like say Blade whose most of their history and stories race doesn't play a strong part.

Hawkeye, Bruce Banner, Hank Pym, Oliver Queen, Hal Jordan, Barry Allen what is their background in terms of culture? These characters have been around for decades and culturally you can't tell anything about these characters. If was Iceman, Magneto, Kitty, Ben Grimm, Captain America it is a different story. Sorry a lot of white characters are blank slate when it comes to things about culture and race barely plays a component in their story. Nobody is saying "the white race" doesn't matter but it is true that many white characters were created and existed without any care for things culturally. That isn't the same for most minority characters and I can find stories in most case where race is a factor.

I disagree with your premise because it's not up to you to decide that there are "too many" white characters. That's your opinion. For me, representing the characters as they have been depicted is more important than changing a character's race to make you happy.

You say that "if you are looking at erasure then white characters for years have been erasing minority characters and why is that okay?"

When did this happen?

Also, Bruce Wayne is not Irish. He's been established as Scottish on his father's side and Jewish on his mother's side.

Finally, minority characters were created with an agenda in mind -- to increase representation of minority races and cultures. That's why the characters' race and culture is usually front and center in how the stories are told. Whereas white characters are not created with a "mission."

However, once again, that doesn't mean that just because a white character's ancestry or ethnicity hasn't been front and center in the stories, that it becomes ok to eliminate it altogether.

If white characters have been a "blank slate," then let's correct THAT. Let's see the ancestral and ethnic background of white characters explored more. Let's see Jews, Italians, Poles, Russians, Spaniards, Irish, French, etc. have their cultures MATTER in stories rather than just see them eliminated.