Are Most MCU Directors Good Outside of the MCU Films?

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I disagree that Ron Howard has only made mediocre movies. He's not Spielberg, but he has made a few very, very good movies.

I said “generally very mediocre” movies. That doesn’t mean it’s all bad or all bland just that even his best movies are only slightly above average. What critics call journeyman directors. His best movies like Apollo 13 or Splash are good genre entertainment but I don’t know if either is a great movie. And his career has fallen hard lately thanks to making Oscar fare like Hillbilly elegy, Cinderella man, a beautiful mind neither of which is good or interesting.

His movies are generally well cast so I will give him that. Arrested Development is like his biggest contribution to entertainment lately and even that is basically a tv version of Wes Anderson’s The Royal Tennenbaums in terms of setting and characters.

I'm hard pressed to think of someone going from indie-director to big budget blockbuster director so very quickly; even Spielberg and Lucas had to build their blockbusters up when they were young, whereas Zhao is being given a *LOT* of funding and responsibility by a major corporation.

It’s not a big risk because Marvel invests so much behind the line in terms of pre viz and second unit, who handle the fight scenes and action before the director arrives on set. So a director doesn’t do about most of the work they are supposed to do on a movie like this.

Spielberg for instance designs and storyboards(the old word for pre viz) all his shots and stages action and designs it by himself. George Miller did the same on Mad Max movies. David Fincher same thing. As a negative example, Michael Bay too.

[green_garnish]

I wonder exactly what specific decisions a director is supposed to make that Marvel movies make for them? I hear a lot about vision and visuals and style, but I'm not recalling a single specific example of some outrageous and routine studio behaviors that are getting in the way of Marvel movie directors.

Oh, and "no r-rated stuff " doesn't count. Every studio decides the rating on every film before seeking investors in it.

It's almost like people think every Marvel movie is Thor, or The Winter Soldier, or Netflix Daredevil, or WandaVision

[Castle]

It’s not a big risk because Marvel invests so much behind the line in terms of pre viz and second unit, who handle the fight scenes and action before the director arrives on set. So a director doesn’t do about most of the work they are supposed to do on a movie like this.

This area is something that has made me rethink a lot of things even about life. Sometimes it does not matter because some are just lucky and will be at the right place at the right time.Take Evans Peter's QS. So apparently everyone loves his quicksilver, they love him so much Disney had Aaron Johnson gone unfairly. ..maybe forever.

However in DOFP, Quicksilver is not even a major character, he has no major story arc. he is one of the few fun spots in what was a dark no-fun movie, however he was the breakout star of the entire film because he got to be in a very exceptional well crafted VFX scene that the makers of that film said it took them big work, studying, time and using rare kinds of camera and effects to bring to life , they had to dig deep for their inner James Cameron visual talents.


it's a rare for a comic book movie, maybe not since the train scene in spiderman 2, we have had something this ground breaking for the comic genre when it comes to VFX,



they talk about the film making process here. you can tell this folks are the people personally behind it all. they are not just crossing their I's and T's fresh off from another fox film even one as great as the Planet of the Apes series by Matt Reeves, who i think will do a good job with The Batman or Ang Lee's spectacular Life of Pi movie.

https://www.cinemablend.com/new/How-...ene-43157.html

The quicksilver time in a bottle scene is something that does not happen with MCU because like you said their fights and action scenes is already plastered and made up by a studio production establishment, the directors just sign them off, but here now is Evan Peters QS in Wandavision, This character that did not even get any major story arc in DOFP has now even gone further than ever imagined, He has even made history as the first non mcu marvel character to somehow cross over to the MCU.

Should I call this fate, destiny or irony? since he is now, in an MCU series , a franchise where the film making effects that was used to make him a break out character in the first place would never have been allowed in an MCU movie. One thing I will say about Kevin Fiege, he is a very very lucky producer. everything always falls into place and he does not do much heavy lifting.

He got Spiderman, he got black panther to be the first movie of the genre to get a best picture nomination, now he has the quicksilver he maybe always wanted even if he never would have allowed the time in a bottle scene to be in any mcu movie, I will also predict, he will land on his two feet with PG 13 Blade with the media, even if PG 13 Blade will just stick to the same thing we have seen before.

Kevin Fiege has been blessed. For a producer who has offered so little with artistic cinema film making. Does anyone even know who David Heymen is at this point?

[green_garnish]

Wait, Feige designs the films before the directors are even hired, or he doesn't do any heavy lifting?

[Kirby101]

I thought Cinderella Man and A Beautiful Mind were both exceptional films.
I also didn't think the Quicksilver Time in a Bottle scene is the all time ground breaking scene others seem to. Felt very Matrix-y to me.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I wonder exactly what specific decisions a director is supposed to make that Marvel movies make for them?

That's honestly a good question. SO much of what a director does or is supposed to do, on the highest artistic level, is unknown to the general public that this kind of issue becomes hard for people who approach these movies as entertainment to completely relate.

This video gives a partial and short (7mns) example of one thing that directors don't control on MCU movies.

It's almost like people think every Marvel movie is Thor, or The Winter Soldier, or Netflix Daredevil, or WandaVision

The reasons for why those examples are different is because of screenwriting and difference in genre not because of directorial style.

Kevin Fiege has been blessed. For a producer who has offered so little with artistic cinema film making.

Does anyone even know who David Heymen is at this point?

My example is Jason Blum, of Blumhouse productions, who created a horror film renaissance over the last decade, by producing movies on low-budget and offering a range of talent creative freedom and a professional stable to get their talents in the public.

Kevin Feige in my opinion isn't a real movie producer in the sense that he has never worked on or produced a non-Marvel movie, or something that wasn't a big IP. He's spent all his life managing a single franchise and he's done that well (he's apparently tipping his toes into Star Wars which is a lateral move but mostly the same kind of direction) but he hasn't taken real risks, he's never done time in the trenches of working alongside young independent film-makers, helping them get the most out of their budgets or like Blum, taking a genre that was somehow marginal into being viable and commercial in a big way, including helping out the likes of Jordan Peele.

The big decisions to create the MCU and the shared universe weren't even made by Feige, it was made by David Maisel who came up with the entire idea and suggested the funding on how to get it done.

Wait, Feige designs the films before the directors are even hired, or he doesn't do any heavy lifting?

It's not Feige who personally designs everything. Rather upon greenlighting a project or idea, he and his screenwriters come up with story and ideas for a character they are adapting and give it over to the Pre-Viz people, and then Feige tries to recruit directors who can play ball with the script or story concept he has in hand.

I thought Cinderella Man and A Beautiful Mind were both exceptional films.

Cinderella Man is a by-the-numbers boxing drama among working-class types i.e. a surefire Oscar staple since Rocky. A Beautiful Mind is a Rainman-esque sentimental portrayal of mental illness.

Both movies are riddled with ridiculous historical inaccuracies, demonizing figures in Cinderella Man, and whitewashing the mathematician in ABM by removing his anti-semitism and his infidelity to his wife, while also falsely portraying schizophrenia.

[Castle]

Wait, Feige designs the films before the directors are even hired, or he doesn't do any heavy lifting?

The directors are meant to do the heavy lifting. Also Feige should not really be designing the films., a director uses his talents and vision to get the best folks and allow then to do their thing. designs, if u call it that.

Take Christopher Nolan, maybe maybe not will he ever win best picture or best director as a film maker or even writer but one thing is clear. his movies will always dominate the technical categories at the oscars when they are nominated. that is a director that does heavy lifting and not just as a director but a producer and film maker.

Alfonso Cuarón , a director that branched off to become a cinematographer because he wanted to be hands on beyond directing and producing Gravity.

James Cameron though not the greatest screen writer, still gets very involved in the screen writing process although he is cerebrated more as a director.

If you try and put any of this 3 men in the room with Feige and have them work together, It won't be pretty.

[green_garnish]

The reasons for why those examples are different is because of screenwriting and difference in genre not because of directorial style.

Directors decide on music, lighting, camera angles, acting emphasis, set design, sound, music, the look of special effects, and essentially everything the audience sees and feels and experiences. Not personally decides these things, but give their approval to experts in their fields who present concepts. The director decides what works with his view of the show and what doesn't.

These things are not determined by the scripts. I've yet to see an example of something Marvel routinely does that is counter to this.

And it's interesting that the last two visits posted to this thread have appeared in other threads on other topics. It's almost as if some people can only find one example to make their point (and are satisfied with it not being a terribly convincing example).

[green_garnish]

The directors are meant to do the heavy lifting. Also Feige should not really be designing the films., a director uses his talents and vision to get the best folks and allow then to do their thing. designs, if u call it that.

So your saying Feige actually does the heavy lifting, but he shouldn't?

[Kirby101]

I'll take the look of MCU movies over the Snyder DC movies any time. I disagree completely that the look ugly.

[Castle]

I thought Cinderella Man and A Beautiful Mind were both exceptional films.
I also didn't think the Quicksilver Time in a Bottle scene is the all time ground breaking scene others seem to. Felt very Matrix-y to me.[/QUOTE]

No it was. that scene was a game changer. Although I fully understand some big MCU fans will disagree but it was, that quicksilver scene change things for any quicksilver motion movement in live action forever, Disney is powerful but even they had to bow out by killing Aaron Johnson QS because they knew they could not produce that kind of VFX in DOFP, marvel studios cannot allow that because it will not rhyme well with their other films. this is pretty much fact that Revolutionary_Jack has already mentioned.

Also I wished maybe you had said more on what I said than just saying the QS scene is overrated. I never wanted a typical MCU response but more on film making commentary. I remember making a thread about iron man 1 as the best made mcu movie film making pov only and this just proves it more.

https://community.cbr.com/showthread...ew-Only)/page2

Jon Favreau was quite artistically challenged on VFX. Marvel studios did not have much money then but he made iron man suits to be mostly practical effects and built. something good that changed drastically in the later years. why? I don't know, maybe this is the design Kevin Fiege does.

Jon was good. talented.


If Jon had stayed and maybe MCU had not worried so much about all their movies having way too much of the same rhythm style, A Jon Favreau Iron Man movie or Iron Man related MCU movie like Avengers could have done what the time in a bottle scene did. I am sure of that because for directors it is all about progression. Nolan was not the best fight choreographer director in batman begins or the dark knight but he had improved drastically by Inception. If he was just following some established studio stuff, he wont be where he is today.

Truly really, this is not even about mcu vs fox or mcu vs sony or marvel vs dc, this is just pure film making honest observation. That I have always put first over any thing including diging in my fanboy or fan girl heart, which I rarely do.

[Kirby101]

Do you have anything backing up what you are saying about why they killed Quicksilver? Or is that speculation on your part?

[Sutekh]

Wait, Feige designs the films before the directors are even hired, or he doesn't do any heavy lifting?

Whichever makes him sound worse. Or perhaps both, in some quantum suck sort of way?

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Directors decide on music, lighting, camera angles, acting emphasis, set design, sound, music, the look of special effects, and essentially everything the audience sees and feels and experiences.

Ideally, yes. In practise, on the MCU, you might get at most 3 or 4 out of the 8 parameters you listed.

Thanks to pre-viz work happening before directoes arrive, the special effects and its designs happens before the director signs on, and as that video in insider reveals, in some cases it even includes camera angles and images for group shots and everything. It's in fact dubious if Feige or anyone in his team will even approve of a director if they ask for full control because so many changes have already happened before they sign on. So any director who comes on has to basically approve and sign off on a lot of stuff that's already underway. As for music, the musical score and orchestra isn't handled by the director. There are exceptions like James Gunn wanting to use pop songs and pop music and that meant that directors after him used pop music (like Waititi in Ragnarok, and then Russos in Endgame), so on that stuff directors might get some say (and since this is Disney money isn't an issue in terms of music rights).

As for lighting and camera angles and set design...most of these movies are shot on green screen and processed widely so VFX and Feige and others operate this, maybe the director suggests some changes and ideas but he can't completely decide the look and vision of this stuff. More importantly you have reshoots. Most normal film-makers don't do reshoots, or generally don't do it. They do it all on the actual production and organize stuff so that they get it all before calling a wrap. Whereas the MCU uses extensive reshoots on all its projects and that often means that directors have to reshoot scenes they shot the first time or second unit stuff done by people who report to Feige getting shots and inserts for the edit without the director having a say.

Once you get past all of that...by law, the DGA mandates that any major Hollywood production depends on the directors getting a "first cut" privilege, i.e. nobody can edit or make suggestions until after the director makes his first stab in the editing room, with his "first pass" for how the film should be paced, or cut. On a MCU film, this might be observed in the letter but in the spirit owing to all the CGI and processes, they can simply call an assemblage a "first cut" and then ask for cuts and changes.

Now a director is still important in the same way directors are also important on TV productions, but it would be wrong to think of them as having any prominent voice in how the final product turned out.

I'll take the look of MCU movies over the Snyder DC movies any time. I disagree completely that the look ugly.

The opposite of MCU isn't Snyder or DCEU, not in my view. Let me say that the MCU is overall fairly consistent and reliable, all the behind-the-line people on those projects - the line producers, the VFX and so on - are at the top of their game. And in terms of making solid superhero genre entertainment, the MCU movies are far more satisfying than Snyder's movies. Snyder's movies are failed auteur genre films, trying and failing to do with superhero characters what Tim Burton succeeded with Batman Returns and James Mangold succeeded with Logan. I will say that MCU superhero movies in terms of performances and productions is more entertaining and rewarding to see than the average sitcom on TV, or most any throwaway Michael Bay or Bay-imitation action movie, and the MCU has in some cases expanded the expectations in the superhero genre, and positively in my view, embraced the unrealism of comics book movies. At the same time, I don't think the MCU moved the needle in terms of visual style, editing, and other innovations in mainstream cinema -- Mad Max Fury Road it ain't, Into the Spider-Verse it ain't, Get Out it ain't, Midsommar it ain't, The Wolf of Wall Street it ain't.

[green_garnish]

No it was. that scene was a game changer

It was derivative and unoriginal, changed nothing. Matrix was a game changer. In terms of breaking new ground, Michael J. Fox Pepsi commercial did more.