Infinite Frontier #0 Discussion/Spoilers

[Jadeb]

I think it’s meant as something else, I think it’s dc going “look we’ve spent the last couple years undoing New 52 by returning characters, relationships, continuity, and previously established history. But we can’t keep focusing on timelines being broken and reality being altered, we’ve brought all that back while keeping what worked so it’s time to move on and just tell stories in the world we are in now and maybe focus on a whole new era”.

“We’re serious about stopping the continuity navel-gazing, and we’ll prove it with more continuity navel-gazing!”

Seriously, I see the panel above and think it must be absolutely impenetrable to anyone except the dwindling numbers of dyed-in-the-wool fans.

[sifighter]

“We’re serious about stopping the continuity navel-gazing, and we’ll prove it with more continuity navel-gazing!”

Seriously, I see the panel above and think it must be absolutely impenetrable to anyone except the dwindling numbers of dyed-in-the-wool fans.

That’s honestly why I think it’s best that we be helpful to people who are new and confused. Introduce them to stories that either explain and help inform the characters or that are just fun. It may be harder with certain characters, looking at the big three, but it can be done and should be done because it’s a hobby anyone should be able to enjoy.

[Jadeb]

That’s honestly why I think it’s best that we be helpful to people who are new and confused. Introduce them to stories that either explain and help inform the characters or that are just fun. It may be harder with certain characters, looking at the big three, but it can be done and should be done because it’s a hobby anyone should be able to enjoy.

Agreed. I just wish DC wrote the stories to reflect that.

[Ropeburn]

Not quite. When Keli first encountered John Stewart she didn't quite tell the truth (or she kinda did at first but then changed it a bit) so what he's saying here is based on what she told him.

From Young Justice #20.

Attachment 106945

Did not know that. Thanks for info.

[regnak]

I'm also not sure where this power level talk is coming from. I have read all 4 Kirby's New Gods books and there was nothing like that in them. Maybe it is based on work that other writers did after Kirby and before CoIE? But then we probably shouldn't say that he is back to Kirby power levels.

In Darkseid’s first appearance in a Jimmy Olsen issue Superman needed help from Magnar against some minions called grav guards. They had Superman pinned with super gravity and he couldn’t get off the ground. That is what the other poster must be talking about.

[Dataweaver]

Kirby power levels might also be Morrison power levels. That is, the way he was described in Final Crisis

[kalai]

Kirby power levels might also be Morrison power levels. That is, the way he was described in Final Crisis

I don't think Kirby did any of the True Form beyond the Multiverse, only Avatars on Earth in his New Gods.
I think that whole Fourth World is greater than the Multiverse thing was really brought in during New Gods Vol3,
and Morrison just did a step ahead by saying all previous Darkseid on Earth were avatars of his true self.
I remember Morrison described Darkseid as the black hole in all creation, causing the end of the Multiverse as he falls from Fourth World to his death.

[kalai]

Hopefully that cycle has been broken since AT&T fired most of the senior people in editorial along with the chief instigator of these reboots/crises.

I mean, reboot is a DC tradition with a long history.
Silver Age was a reboot, COIE was a reboot, and N52 was a reboot.
Pretty sure it will happen again, but yeah, there were too many crises during the last decade.

[Celgress]

[Artemisfanboy]

In Darkseid’s first appearance in a Jimmy Olsen issue Superman needed help from Magnar against some minions called grav guards. They had Superman pinned with super gravity and he couldn’t get off the ground. That is what the other poster must be talking about.

You are mixing up event's quite a bit. The Grav-guards fought against Superman and the Forever People in issue #1 of Forever People, and while there were three of them, I wouldn't consider them mooks like Parademons. Also after dispatching with the Grav Guards Superman and Infinity Man confront Darkseid who instead of putting up a fight surrenders Beautiful Dreamer who he was holding prisoner. A few issues later Darkseid has another confrontation with Infinity Man and manages to banish Infinity Man with his Omega Effect. So you could argue that Superman's presence in Forever People #1 caused Darseid to retreat rather than try to deal with both Superman and and Infinity Man.

In the Early issues of Jack Kirby's Jimmy Olsen Superman protects the cadmus project against two monsters sent by Simyan and Mokari. The first was a giant clone of Jimmy Olsen with Kryptonite powers and the second was a giant four armed monster.

Magnar was a New Genesis New God who appeared in #147 of Jimmy Olsen series. He and Superman had a brief misunderstanding causing them to fight, before Superman had a chance to explain himself. And it quite Clear Superman was the more powerful individual. Magnar comments "it took all his magnaforce throw him off balance" and Superman after this takes a direct punch from Magnar with no effect while explaining himself. Magnar was only really capable of getting the better of Superman when Superman let his guard down.

Kirby power levels might also be Morrison power levels. That is, the way he was described in Final Crisis

I can safely say having read Jack Kirby's New Gods work, that no, Grant Morrison's portrayal in Final Crisis is not accurate to the original Kirby depiction and is much more powerful.

I don't think Kirby did any of the True Form beyond the Multiverse, only Avatars on Earth in his New Gods.
I think that whole Fourth World is greater than the Multiverse thing was really brought in during New Gods Vol3,
and Morrison just did a step ahead by saying all previous Darkseid on Earth were avatars of his true self.
I remember Morrison described Darkseid as the black hole in all creation, causing the end of the Multiverse as he falls from Fourth World to his death.

I'm pretty sure Kirby didn't have any "true form" or "avatar" ideas in place with his New Gods. This distinction between avatars and true forms stuff is the result of later writers making them more cosmically powerful (particularly Morrisson and Final Crisis seems to have been the most influential in this depiction) while still wanting to have them appear regularly.

[sifighter]

Kirby power levels might also be Morrison power levels. That is, the way he was described in Final Crisis

Yeah way I see it, Infinite Frontier Darkseid is a mashup of true form Darkseid (you know the one that uses his physical body as an Avatar), Pre and Post Crisis, New 52 Darkseid, and the Upgraded Darkseid we got in Death Metal. At least if that makes sense this is composite Darkseid.

[regnak]

You are mixing up event's quite a bit. The Grav-guards fought against Superman and the Forever People in issue #1 of Forever People, and while there were three of them, I wouldn't consider them mooks like Parademons. Also after dispatching with the Grav Guards Superman and Infinity Man confront Darkseid who instead of putting up a fight surrenders Beautiful Dreamer who he was holding prisoner. A few issues later Darkseid has another confrontation with Infinity Man and manages to banish Infinity Man with his Omega Effect. So you could argue that Superman's presence in Forever People #1 caused Darseid to retreat rather than try to deal with both Superman and and Infinity Man.

In the Early issues of Jack Kirby's Jimmy Olsen Superman protects the cadmus project against two monsters sent by Simyan and Mokari. The first was a giant clone of Jimmy Olsen with Kryptonite powers and the second was a giant four armed monster.

Magnar was a New Genesis New God who appeared in #147 of Jimmy Olsen series. He and Superman had a brief misunderstanding causing them to fight, before Superman had a chance to explain himself. And it quite Clear Superman was the more powerful individual. Magnar comments "it took all his magnaforce throw him off balance" and Superman after this takes a direct punch from Magnar with no effect while explaining himself. Magnar was only really capable of getting the better of Superman when Superman let his guard down.



I can safely say having read Jack Kirby's New Gods work, that no, Grant Morrison's portrayal in Final Crisis is not accurate to the original Kirby depiction and is much more powerful.



I'm pretty sure Kirby didn't have any "true form" or "avatar" ideas in place with his New Gods. This distinction between avatars and true forms stuff is the result of later writers making them more cosmically powerful (particularly Morrisson and Final Crisis seems to have been the most influential in this depiction) while still wanting to have them appear regularly.

Fine it has been a long time but still the grav guards had Superman pinned and while not parademons were still minions of Darkseid. As for why he gave up Beautiful Dreamer rather than fight them both is just speculation on your part.

[Kevin Street]

Okay DC, you've got me reading for now.

We came really close there to the end of DC comics, and the alternate distribution stuff could still bring everything down. It's definitely harder to find DC than it was before the pandemic. The sales have to be lower without Diamond. But that cold brush with oblivion showed me something. I really love this universe, and most of the characters in it. The prospect of living without it hurt. I love it so much I'll come back for another go, even if the upcoming titles are mostly done by people I've never heard of and the issue prices are ridiculously high. One more chance.

Infinite Frontier was all right for a new beginning. It showed us some of the new creative teams and characters, and it was fun. I checked out right after Death Metal ended, so the Future State stuff means nothing to me. I don't care about the new characters for the most part (with the tentative possible exception of the Brazilian Wonder Woman) so a lot of stuff here like Lucius Fox's son and Teen Titans Academy didn't do anything for me. What did really work for me was seeing the things that have been brought back, like the Justice Society!

It's great to see the Justice Society and Infinity Incorporated back in continuity again. What I hope you're doing is the simplest solution like they did after the first Crisis. Just say the old stories all happened, except there was no Superman or Wonder Woman in them. Yeah, there were at least two Hawkmen, so what. The stories where the JLA teamed up with the JSA can be explained by saying the JLA came from another Earth. (Maybe even the new Linearverse.) I hope this means the whole Roy Thomas corner of the DCU has been restored.

Likewise it was great to see Star Girl, with her connections to the JSA and the Seven Solders of Victory. The implication seems to be that Geoff John's modern JSA also "happened," along with Starman Jack Knight.

The impression I'm getting here is that this is basically the post-Crisis Earth that was ended by Flashpoint, brought back along with a returned Infinite Earths multiverse that happens to include the 52 Earths from the modern era. (Along with some modern touches like the Shazam family and the new Superboy.) All that is A-okay with me. It would be nice if some of the worst stories of the past never happened, but one thing we've learned is that whenever someone takes a story out of continuity someone else will put it back in, so maybe it's best to take the good with the bad. Maybe from now on take an approach to continuity like they do at Marvel: everything "happens," but the silliest and most dated stuff is just slowly forgotten over time. That's probably the best approach to take with Identity Crisis, just forget it ever happened. Bringing back Roy is a nice beginning to that.

Oddly enough the Superman story doesn't have Superman in it. But it was a nice Jon story. His solution to the Empyreal Maw doesn't make any logical sense if you think about it, but it definitely feels like the kind of thing Superman would do. Save the monster instead of defeating it. When the Spectre gives Diana a rundown of Jon's history it just shows how impossible it is to say that everything happened. Jon's birth doesn't make sense, not if you want any civilians like Ma and Pa Kent to remember Jon as a baby. And the years he spent lost in the multiverse can't have happened if Dr. Manhattan's alterations to the timeline were healed. (No Jor El in modern times to take him into space.) So some of the past needs to be retconned at least enough to fit Jon into it.

The Batman stories were quite well done, actually the highlight of this comic. I liked them enough to check out the Batman 106.

The Green Lantern story is a little disturbing. I hope the writer remembers that the Guardians are Guardians of the Universe, not the galaxy. The United Planets is a Milky Way organization, which is only part of sector 2814. It should be a small blip for them. And OA is definitely not in sector 2814.

Wally coming back as the Flash is fine. Hopefully this is another step on the road to forgetting Identity Crisis completely.

Grifter! The guy is like herpes. Once he's introduced into a universe you can never get rid of him. Well, whatever.

Some parts of this comic felt very meta, especially Diana's dialog near the end about the "omnipotent force from another world" that stole away their legacy, connections and faith in themselves. She's talking about Dr. Manhattan, right? Yeah, that must be it.

I really hope the Quintessence didn't just get punked to death from behind by Darkseid. Especially Highfather, who's supposed to be equal and opposite to Darkseid. Still, with all their supposed power the Quintessence is squishy. Maybe this was fragments of themselves they left behind on Earth Omega to guard the prisoner, or versions from an alternate universe or the future. Something or other like that. It would suck to lose all those characters for good just to show how powerful Darkseid has become.

Okay, you got me back DC. Good job. Now make it worthwhile to stay.

[Restingvoice]

At first, I wanna bring up Doomsday Clock and say that Infinite Frontier #0 is that point in time where Dr. Manhattan fixed the timeline so JSA's back, but then I remember that The Quintessence said that Doomsday Clock already happened by the end of Justice Doom War, in a time and place beyond the Justice League's awareness.

So is Doomsday Clock happened in another branch of Hypertime that's now preserved in another place in the Metaverse?

Did The Quintessence mean once upon a time, Doomsday Clock was part of the same timeline as Rebirth, but after that time-shifted to accommodate Justice Doom War since the JSA already exists in the past but didn't exist in the present?

Past JSA Dr. Fate did say that timeline was altered so no one remembers who they are, but if JSA exists in the past, then it's not Dr. Manhattan, because he already fixed it, so who alter it again?

Was it Wally West in Flash Forward when he was picking and choosing a timeline, but he's not finished yet when he's attacked by Batman Who Laughs, is that why JSA only existed in the past but not in the present?

That's the answer that makes sense for me for now

Anyway, not that it matters now and moving forward, I'm just curious

[Bored at 3:00AM]

At first, I wanna bring up Doomsday Clock and say that Infinite Frontier #0 is that point in time where Dr. Manhattan fixed the timeline so JSA's back, but then I remember that The Quintessence said that Doomsday Clock already happened by the end of Justice Doom War, in a time and place beyond the Justice League's awareness.

So is Doomsday Clock happened in another branch of Hypertime that's now preserved in another place in the Metaverse?

Did The Quintessence mean once upon a time, Doomsday Clock was part of the same timeline as Rebirth, but after that time-shifted to accommodate Justice Doom War since the JSA already exists in the past but didn't exist in the present?

Past JSA Dr. Fate did say that timeline was altered so no one remembers who they are, but if JSA exists in the past, then it's not Dr. Manhattan, because he already fixed it, so who alter it again?

Was it Wally West in Flash Forward when he was picking and choosing a timeline, but he's not finished yet when he's attacked by Batman Who Laughs, is that why JSA only existed in the past but not in the present?

That's the answer that makes sense for me for now

Anyway, not that it matters now and moving forward, I'm just curious

From how I understood it all, the in story reason was that time was so fundamentally broken by the double whammy of Doctor Manhattan's tinkering and the Dark Multiverse's invasion that Doomsday Clock took place within a sort of time bubble and it's full effects weren't able to come into effect until after Death Metal saw the whole Multiverse reborn.

In actual practice, it doesn't mean much because the in-story reasons were little more than hastily created explanations meant to paper over Johns being late delivering Doomsday Clock, then getting fired, then Didio trying to shift course, then getting fired himself, and Javins and Snyder trying to pretend it was all part of the plan and convincing no one