Infinite Frontier #0 Discussion/Spoilers

[Restingvoice]

The Linearverse is another earth in the Multiverse. The Main DCU seems just to be adopting, for the most part, Pre-Flashpoint.

Hmm... until they start with the flashbacks I'm gonna assume they're still using Rebirth mixed with elements of the 5G setup in Doomsday Clock Alan's back story, since Batgirls history are still unclear. I'm sure Obsidian and Jade will use their Post Crisis history, so I guess it's a little bit of everything.

Just my opinion, but I would say probably, individually and maybe both of them given the right circumstances. But that's because Highfather and Spectre weren't so OP back then. They've been getting more and more powerful over the years.

This just plain wrong. The only time Darkseid ever does any fighting in a Kirby work at all is a very unimpressive fist fight with Orion in Hunger Dogs. He spent most of Kirby as an evil overlord sitting on his throne. And for the few minions that Superman fought wouldn't say he had any more trouble with them than any other superpowered foe of the era who was meant to be a villain of a full issue. Nor would I say any of his minions that fought Orion, Mister Miracle, or the Forever People to be insanely cosmically powerful.

I guess I can understand why some people prefer the Morrison Final Crisis take which went all in on him as the ultimate embodiment of cosmic evil (though I personally don't), but to try and claim it's accurate to how Kirby portrayed Darkseid is just wrong.

Kirby Darkseid is bronze Age actually, but I'd say no for Spectre, yes for Highfather, but assassinating Highfather would certainly count as a breaking of the armistice with New Genesis leading a second full scale war between the two planets, which actually used to be a concern for Darkseid because if he was going to do that he would want to make sure it was a war he could win. They've made Darkseid so powerful he seems far beyond caring about that.

About powers and canon, I just remember that while Spectre is considered second only to The Presence, that was when The Hand of Creation was only one and refer to The Presence, but now The Hands are a race of Super-Celestials ranking below The Presence, so The Spectre may be considered in the rank under The Hands instead of under The Presence.

I don't think they ever clear this up in the books, but that's my assumption

[Bruce Wayne]

I think there was a lot of rewrites for Death Metal especially imo the Super-Celestials being the Hands, the former at least in Snyder's Justice League comics suggests more a pantheons of super-gods while the latter resembles more Morrison's Seven Unknown Men from SSoV .

Also the Presence's powerlevels really depends on how much readers take stock in Neil Gaiman's stuff in Sandman and Books of Magic since his material lays down the fact that people's beliefs shape reality and that gods including the Presence are only so powerful and are the "creator" of the universe because people believe that's true. And even then, Spectre is probably like #4 in the heavenly hierarchy since Lucifer/Michael are both more powerful than he is.

[Triniking1234]

He was more powerful than Pre-Crisis Superman, and you know how OP that guy was. Pre-Crisis Superman struggled with Darkseid’s minions then. But power levels don’t really interest me, it’s if his characterization will be returning to the Kirby/Morrison tactician rather than the Johns brute that I’m more interested in knowing.

I don't have much of the old stuff but Superman fought Darkseid before Bryne's reboot?

[ducklord]

Since I haven't picked this up yet, a couple of reactions to the thread:

1) I'm amused no end that, with regards the Seven Soldiers of Victory, DC's finally throwing in the towel saying "you know what, there WAS a golden age Green Arrow and Speedy, so there!" Here's hoping they've figured out how that works.
2) On the Alan Scott/JSA front, did the story give any indication how Infinity Inc. actually still, um, *works*, temporally speaking? With the 7SOV, there's a clean "And then they got dispersed in time until the JLA rescued them a few years ago" excuse, which explains why Pat Dugan isn't 95 years old (plus, Greg Saunders is a werewolf, so he's kind of immortal). But the core JSA guys are all pushing 100, so did they ALL have their early 30something kids when they in their late 60's? Even Fury? I mean, I love both the JSA and Infinity Inc., but them being the JSA's kids gets weirder and weirder with every passing year.
3) One cool thing about DC re-embracing its long history is that the Suicide Squad can properly get back to doing what it does best: killing off D-list villains that have run their course

[Frontier]

That's what I meant, also: the ones that are giving us these 90s feels are Dick, Wally, Steph and Cass. The poster boys of the "Didio hates legacy" thing. The ones whose fans got antagonized for more than a decade. Doesn't mean we're getting a late 90s redux, and actually, it doesn't look like it. (Thankfully, IMHO. Let's fix what's broken and then move on!)

Still some fixing to do in my opinion...

You sure can be: but the only cool Aquaman is a bearded Aquaman and I'm dying on that hill.

I don't really find Beach Bum Aquaman that cool, but I'm more of a Johns guy than a PAD guy.

Hmmmm.... felt in character to me.

To each their own .

I'm sure he will be there for Flash family barbecue.

Reminds me of people assuming Barry was going to retire.

[Thor-Ul]

Since I haven't picked this up yet, a couple of reactions to the thread:

1) I'm amused no end that, with regards the Seven Soldiers of Victory, DC's finally throwing in the towel saying "you know what, there WAS a golden age Green Arrow and Speedy, so there!" Here's hoping they've figured out how that works.

That is going to be an excellent way to Hawkmaning/Donnatroying Green Arrow.

[Robotman]

I thought it was just ok.

I loved the fact that even the citizens of Gotham are like, “didn’t we just have a whole Joker event?!? Shouldn’t they be giving this character a rest?!?”. Even they’re sick of him.

Jon Kent once again stealing the spotlight.

Nice to see Ollie and Dinah back together. Don’t screw it up Ollie!

I’m interested to see Barry explore the new multiverse.

Justice League seemed ok but ShazAdam is so ridiculous. Is Bendis trying to make a great character into a joke?

Wonder Woman realizing that rules don’t matter anymore and just decides to be alive again.

I’m a huge fan of Darkseid but even I was disappointed that the big bad was him again. Though it was cool seeing him stomp some of the most powerful beings in the DCU.

[Rightoya]

The latter.. or... both.

So... while the regular characters only remember every past version of themselves, he's combining every past version of himself to make... Final Darkseid?

I need the summary of everyone's power level
I heard that The Spectre is supposed to be second only to The Source but now it seems like this

The Presence
The Hands - Perpetua - The Darkest Knight - Gold Wonder Woman - Final Darkseid?
The Quintessence - Ascended Wonder Woman - Regular Darkseid
New Gods - Olympians - Other Gods

But how makes that any sense, why would the Hands ascend Diana into a weaker version than before for a new even bigger threat, and if Darkseid isn't that what is his role except being some Uber powerful side-villain coming out of nowhere?

I also don't understand that odd equalization of the Quintessence they are doing, is now each member of them supposed to be on par with the Spectre?

[Buried Alien]

I found most of it pretty "meh," but absolutely LOVE the KAMEN RIDER transition between the Flashes. Completely reminiscent of how Rider-Hongo left the security of Japan in the hands of Rider-Ichimonji when the former went overseas to Europe and the Americas to fight Shocker around the world. SO MUCH BETTER than just killing one of them off or retconning the other into nonexistence.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Montressor]

Curious about Stargirl--has Jack been retconned out completely? Not sure I like the idea of the rod being sentient, but maybe some fun will come out of that.

I have a distinct feeling that all that stuff about Jon will result in a reset for him to prevent him from going bad. The Jor El crap, the Legion, the aging...all wiped away and young Jon restored. I hope.

[Artemisfanboy]

Curious about Stargirl--has Jack been retconned out completely? Not sure I like the idea of the rod being sentient, but maybe some fun will come out of that.

I have a distinct feeling that all that stuff about Jon will result in a reset for him to prevent him from going bad. The Jor El crap, the Legion, the aging...all wiped away and young Jon restored. I hope.

While I would like to hope that it would end with Jon being de-aged, PKJ has said he's not planning on doing that. So, best case s cenario for me if that is the plan he would either be lying in his current interviews or there is already a plan set up for the next wrter to de-age Jon right after him. However, I do not feel at liberty to assume the best and thus must assume the worst, that PKJ's goal is try to sell people on aged up Jon and make it work, so I have no choice but to not support his run.

[mmurphy1968]

This is what I like to call "Rebirth 2.0"...

Or Crisis 102548.1

Yet another reboot that adds little and what it does add will be rebooted again in a few years. Multiverse, the other Multiverse, that other (but supposedly different) multiverse, Dark Multiverse, Linearverse, Omniverse, Hypertime, blah blah blah....

....old man rant.....
....flops down exhausted....
....if only these kids understood how good comics were in my day....
zzzzz.......

[gambit2051]

When it comes to Darkseid's Power-up, I just realized that it must be that the Omega Effect has seriously grown in Power and is literally spilling out of Darkseid as that Black Energy. Maybe the possibility of Infinite DEATH has compounded it?

Now that I have thought about it that way, i can see how Darkseid is now basically The God of Death

Darkseid Black Energy.jpg

[Restingvoice]

3) One cool thing about DC re-embracing its long history is that the Suicide Squad can properly get back to doing what it does best: killing off D-list villains that have run their course

About that... Amanda Waller has decided in Suicide Squad preview that she's done losing and just straight up want SS to be Justice League

But how makes that any sense, why would the Hands ascend Diana into a weaker version than before for a new even bigger threat, and if Darkseid isn't that what is his role except being some Uber powerful side-villain coming out of nowhere?

I also don't understand that odd equalization of the Quintessence they are doing, is now each member of them supposed to be on par with the Spectre?

Didn't Wonder Woman loses her Gold power and that's when The Hand approached her? So she resets to regular Wonder Woman form, then ascended to Godsphere. Gold Wonder Woman is equal to The Darkest Knight and Perpetua who is equal to The Hands. Logically The Hands can't ascend Wonder Woman beyond their rank.

When I wrote that I have no idea about the power ranking within The Quintessence so I just lump them together, but if they follow the lore then they shouldn't be equal

When it comes to Darkseid's Power-up, I just realized that it must be that the Omega Effect has seriously grown in Power and is literally spilling out of Darkseid as that Black Energy. Maybe the possibility of Infinite DEATH has compounded it?

Now that I have thought about it that way, i can see how Darkseid is now basically The God of Death

Darkseid Black Energy.jpg

Has the black energy been used before or is this the first time?

[mrswing]

This was BORING. The only set-up that remotely interests me is Wally back as Flash but that will totally depend on execution. All the rest... Yawn. Either retreads of old ideas or uninteresting new ideas. And Bendis' Justice League was just as awful as I feared.
Goodbye, DC. It took almost 40 years but you finally got rid of me.