Batman 106 Discussion

[The tall man]

The batfamily is the only thing that humanizes Bruce to me. Without them he's just an ******* manchild who is obsessed with being Gotham's sole saviour.

Yet this ******* manchild is the #1 biggest most popular character in DC by a wide margin. And one of the top two in all of comics, funny that. Goes to show that despite all the hate Batman gets on this board he is still a beloved and in demand character, people love him and in the end that's all that matters. Batfamily be dammed.

[Restingvoice]

Batman doesnt need his family to fight against superpowered threats in Justice League stories. His underlings cant even make it to the JL because they are disposable. Lesser versions of Batman.

No, he just needs the rest of the League.
Flat out wrong. Dick, Babs, Kate Kane, Cass Cain, Tim, Harley, Selina, Jean-Paul, Jace and Damian have all been in the League. Dick multiple times. Jason's not coz he's dead and then a villain, but even Teen Titans have beaten Trigon who Justice League can't beat.

And if you're going to reply it's because Justice League have invited everyone in the past, then they're not lesser or bigger than anyone are they? They're just that, just another group in the larger universe, their status dependent on who's in charge of this fictional story at any given moment.

[prepmaster]

No, he just needs the rest of the League.

Flat out wrong. Dick, Babs, Kate Kane, Cass Cain, Tim, Harley, Selina, Jean-Paul, Jace and Damian have all been in the League. Dick multiple times. Jason's not coz he's dead and then a villain, but even Teen Titans have beaten Trigon who Justice League can't beat.

They are more than enough comics showing how he deals with superpowered threats by himself. In Batman comics, metahuman like Clayface has been dealt with by himself alone for numerous times.

I count JL as in terms of main stay on the team. Many Batfam members cant be added as part of the main stay because they would just end up as lesser version of Bruce in JL.

[Morgoth]

Its just sad that Batman comics is now a place to promote other Batfam members who can not carry their own books.

Who exactly, lol? Most of them have their book or obviously will have it later.

[CPSparkles]

Yet this ******* manchild is the #1 biggest most popular character in DC by a wide margin. And one of the top two in all of comics, funny that. Goes to show that despite all the hate Batman gets on this board he is still a beloved and in demand character, people love him and in the end that's all that matters. Batfamily be dammed.

Batman is indeed the most popular hero and is beloved and uber popular which is why i don't get the animosity for some fans when folks point out the shitty things that writers have bruce do.

It isn't hurting his popularity, the family isn't holding him back and even when the batman titles have become nothing more than adverts for batfamily members [as you put it] He is still in demand.

The majority of Batman fans still buy these Batfamily adverts passing for comics so they don't mind.

Batman is popular regardless and sell no matter what. There's no harm in showcasing other characters who aren't as big or new characters. That's how comics work at times. some characters need a boost or the push or just a home.

DC is a business which is why they can't damn the family since there's value in those characters.


The Family is a big part of Batman. Has been since Dick Grayson was introduced boosting Batman sales by 40%. DC just needs to ensure that writers write Batman as a hero and a good man. He is their superstar and it's frankly shocking what they let writers do with him.

Still can't believe they let King's dodgy Batman punches his Robin as a form of communication take make it into the comics. WTF. DC editors.

I get the frustration some lone batman fans must feel when he is dragged. Like fans of the family are always hating on Bruce. batfamily fans don't hate bruce I don't believe. I think they just don't want him written as a cruel person or written to be so seemingly uncaring. I'm sure that's something both batman and batfamily fans can agree on.

The real problem is how far some writers push and distort the character. Something that DC/WB should keep a keen eye on.

[Restingvoice]

They are more than enough comics showing how he deals with superpowered threats by himself. In Batman comics, metahuman like Clayface has been dealt with by himself alone for numerous times.

I count JL as in terms of main stay on the team. Many Batfam members cant be added as part of the main stay because they would just end up as lesser version of Bruce in JL.

So does Dick, Kate, Jason, Stephanie, Duke... especially if they have access to the same freezing, sonar, or destablizer tech, because that's how you beat Clayface specifically.

That's fine, I guess people like Zatanna, Black Canary, Vixen, Mera, or even Green Arrow and Hawkman are lesser heroes of mainstay JL.

Look. This is getting silly. The reason I'm bringing up the cosmic threat is to answer your argument about how Batman villains isn't a threat if they can be beaten by the rest of the fam...

But even when I'm not talking about the family, arguing that Batman can take on metahuman by himself is not helping your case of wanting the Batman villains to be a threat. It's the opposite. They should be even less of a threat, if with the right gadget Batman or Stephanie Brown can finish Clayface or Mr. Freeze in just a panel.

If you want them to still be a threat, I already said how in my post. Adapt and evolve. Some of them have. Joker upgraded his gas, Bane used every single villain available included Batman's dad, Clayface became a giant, Two-Face was wearing Batman armor, Black Mask used Bizarro, Deacon Blackfire summons actual ghosts that covered a city block, Hugo Strange's experiments are no Kaiju...

Aren't those all prove that they're still a threat? And if your argument about the fam is they can't face metahuman on their own, and they're lesser because they're not in the main League, whatever the frick that means, doesn't that mean the Batman villains are still a threat?

Aren't the fact that Batman need the help of the family to cover the city means his villains are still a threat?

The answer to what you want is already there. You're just hung up on status that Batfam has to be lesser than Bruce, that you're not paying attention that the (popular or recent) villains are still a threat, that Bruce's status and skill hasn't diminished, whether he's still in Gotham or in cosmic battle against the League enemies.

[prepmaster]

You're just hung up on status that Batfam has to be lesser than Bruce, that you're not paying attention that the (popular or recent) villains are still a threat

You dont need the fam to sell the threat level of the villains. What I want to argue about was the story function of the characters. Batfam members are written as fodders or deus ex machina or at best lesser version of Bruce. They dont bring anything to the table that Bruce cant do. The Nolan triology doesnt need Batfam. Movie makers are smart enough to not waste money on casting actors for insignificant roles. The conflict is between Batman and his villains. Thats it. One protagonist, simple conflict, simple narrative. Not Batman & his underlings vs his villains.

[Drako]

You dont need the fam to sell the threat level of the villains. What I want to argue about was the story function of the characters. Batfam members are written as fodders or deus ex machina or at best lesser version of Bruce. They dont bring anything to the table that Bruce cant do. The Nolan triology doesnt need Batfam. Movie makers are smart enough to not waste money on casting actors for insignificant roles. The conflict is between Batman and his villains. Thats it. One protagonist, simple conflict, simple narrative. Not Batman & his underlings vs his villains.

Robin was in The Dark Knight Rises.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

It was large waay before then...it's not new.

Not being new doesn't mean the complaint isn't valid. The book is called Batman not Batman and the bat family so it's very understandable to be annoyed. Especially when there is apparently another Batman book that is basically supposed to focus on the family.

[prepmaster]

Robin was in The Dark Knight Rises.

The appearance of Robin was to show how Batman inspires others to become heroes. Robin was never used as Batman's underling. Even the appearance of Robin was so insignificant that you didnt even remember the right movie that has Robin.

[prepmaster]

There's no harm in showcasing other characters who aren't as big or new characters. That's how comics work at times. some characters need a boost or the push or just a home.

You have the wrong approach. Pushing other characters by attaching them more to Batman or using Batman as a prop for them doesnt help them in the larger scheme. They need to have popular stories where they are the main protagonists. Stories that sell and feature them as the main protagonists. Otherwise we will still have adaption of Jason's death and comeback as a villain and Barbara being crippled and Catwoman romancing with Batman as Batfam members' most popular stories. The popularity of these stories show that they dont have any good story as the main protagonists.

Batman's world revolves around the conflict between him and his villains. One protagonist, simple conflict, simple narrative. Batman stories are not driven by romance nor family drama.

Villains are important because they provide conflict for the main protagonist. Without conflict with the villains, people would not be invested in your stories and you have to rely on other things to provide conflict for the main protagonist. But those other things are better written in novels than in superhero comics.

Its in writers' interest to provide more conflicts for the main protagonist. But ultimately the best kind of conflict in superhero comics is between a hero and a villain.

[CPSparkles]

You have the wrong approach. Pushing other characters by attaching them more to Batman or using Batman as a prop for them doesnt help them in the larger scheme. They need to have popular stories where they are the main protagonists. Stories that sell and feature them as the main protagonists. Otherwise we will still have adaption of Jason's death and comeback as a villain and Barbara being crippled and Catwoman romancing with Batman as Batfam members' most popular stories. The popularity of these stories show that they dont have any good story as the main protagonists.

Batman's world revolves around the conflict between him and his villains. One protagonist, simple conflict, simple narrative. Batman stories are not driven by romance nor family drama.

Villains are important because they provide conflict for the main protagonist. Without conflict with the villains, people would not be invested in your stories and you have to rely on other things to provide conflict for the main protagonist. But those other things are better written in novels than in superhero comics.

Its in writers' interest to provide more conflicts for the main protagonist. But ultimately the best kind of conflict in superhero comics is between a hero and a villain.

Those characters are already attached to batman. A character like Duke Thomas for example was created for a Batman story. To advance this story and myth.

DC wants him to be a success because he brings something new to franchise so they had the next writer use him sparingly. What is the harm in that? What is unusual about that?

Showcasing a character who was created to be a part of the Batman world in the batman comics is the way comics work.

No one is saying that Batman has to be used to prop a character or that a character should take over focus from the main star. There is such a thing as supporting casts supporting the main star.

All characters need promo. They need to be exposed to the fans in order to get established or to find a base. That's how it works.

The fan get to know them, they find their base, they then move on to their own titles.

[The bulk of the family have homes in other titles and only occasionally appear in the bat titles since Dc turn Robin into a solo hero back in the 90's.]

Aside from Rebirth Tec the Batman titles haven't been family heavy in a long time. Even during Morrison's run when the dynamic duo was brought back as a mainstay that was in a separate title.

I don't get why a guest spot or a supporting character being used for their intended purpose has to be considered using batman as a prop in a bad way?

It's supposed to be mutually beneficial. Just because some writers fail to grasp this doesn't change that that is how it should work and that is how good comic world's work.

Batman's world has lots of character's. The character's had to be part of the world to be established and newly introduced characters are usually given extra visibilty.

That is how comics have always worked.

You don't get to decide what drives a Batman story until DC hires you to write Batman. What drives a batman story depends on the writer and varies.

losing his family, building a hew one, gathering the largest family in comics. Batman might not be about Family drama or love interest but family is a big part of the franchise and has been for 80 yrs.

I want to be clear, I'm not saying that the family should be in the main bat titles, I'm not even against both titles focusing on solo batman. I just don't understand why some have an issue when they pop up in them?

I don't understand why some have grown so negative and are directing their anger at the characters when they are not the root of the problem

I'm not sure if I explained myself well.

[The tall man]

Let's take a character like Damian, he has his fans to be sure but his entire relevance comes from his connection to Batman. Let's be honest if he was just the son of Talia and some random guy or even someone like Slade he wouldn't have much relevance or staying power, he would probably be in the camp of someone like Rose Wilson. His popularity and relevance comes from him being Batman's son, having the "Son of the Bat" moniker. Yet despite that his fans for the most part love to rail against Bruce, he's the worst father, he ignores Damian, ect... As if Bruce has to upend his whole life for a brat he didn't know existed or asked for. Now the question is is Bruce a better character or is the bat mythos better off by the inclusion of Damian? No because Batman would be still as big and popular as he currently is. Same goes for any of the family, Batman isn't enhanced or enriched by any of them, they are by him, by being connected to the bat mythos. But some like to claim otherwise, that he needs them which is 100% false. The thing is that most Batman only fans wouldn't feel the way they do if family fans weren't constantly ripping and dragging Bruce, but they do. Because he doesn't act the way they want him to. In the end it doesn't matter because Batman will always come out on top.

[Nite-Wing]

Let's take a character like Damian, he has his fans to be sure but his entire relevance comes from his connection to Batman. Let's be honest if he was just the son of Talia and some random guy or even someone like Slade he wouldn't have much relevance or staying power, he would probably be in the camp of someone like Rose Wilson. His popularity and relevance comes from him being Batman's son, having the "Son of the Bat" moniker. Yet despite that his fans for the most part love to rail against Bruce, he's the worst father, he ignores Damian, ect... As if Bruce has to upend his whole life for a brat he didn't know existed or asked for. Now the question is is Bruce a better character or is the bat mythos better off by the inclusion of Damian? No because Batman would be still as big and popular as he currently is. Same goes for any of the family, Batman isn't enhanced or enriched by any of them, they are by him, by being connected to the bat mythos. But some like to claim otherwise, that he needs them which is 100% false. The thing is that most Batman only fans wouldn't feel the way they do if family fans weren't constantly ripping and dragging Bruce, but they do. Because he doesn't act the way they want him to. In the end it doesn't matter because Batman will always come out on top.

This mentality is bad and fosters resentment towards Bruce
I mean imagine if the Batman fandom became as bad as Green Lantern or Flash in regards to the fighting. The only step from that is because the lines have been so fractured between all the robin and batgirl fans
Bruce is top dog for sure but imo he ne can have a few new characters like Duke or Ghostmaker around. It only enriches his mythos with them
I agree for the most part that Damian has pretty much ruined Bruce as a father for a whole new generation of fans he can go

The rest of the bat family are old enough that they don't need to be constantly around him

[CPSparkles]

Let's take a character like Damian, he has his fans to be sure but his entire relevance comes from his connection to Batman. Let's be honest if he was just the son of Talia and some random guy or even someone like Slade he wouldn't have much relevance or staying power, he would probably be in the camp of someone like Rose Wilson. His popularity and relevance comes from him being Batman's son, having the "Son of the Bat" moniker. Yet despite that his fans for the most part love to rail against Bruce, he's the worst father, he ignores Damian, ect... As if Bruce has to upend his whole life for a brat he didn't know existed or asked for. Now the question is is Bruce a better character or is the bat mythos better off by the inclusion of Damian? No because Batman would be still as big and popular as he currently is. Same goes for any of the family, Batman isn't enhanced or enriched by any of them, they are by him, by being connected to the bat mythos. But some like to claim otherwise, that he needs them which is 100% false. The thing is that most Batman only fans wouldn't feel the way they do if family fans weren't constantly ripping and dragging Bruce, but they do. Because he doesn't act the way they want him to. In the end it doesn't matter because Batman will always come out on top.

Okay lets take Damian. Damian's popularity might be in part based off of him being an Al ghul and a Wayne but that doesn't mean that's the solo reason for his success.

Infact Damian is one of the few breakout characters from DC from the past few decades and one of the family to have his own fanbase. He is one of the family members who doesn't need to and hasn't been a regular in the bat titles. His writer choose to kill him off but WB decided to keep meaning that they saw value in him and they felt he enhanced the bat world.

They've had several chances to get rid of him, many outs but they won't meaning that they are gaining something from having him. So the answer is yes the batman world/franchise is better with Damian. You might not agree but the people who owe batman clearly do and that is what matters.

Doesn't matter where his popularity comes from [Superson's fans care more about his relationship with Jon than Batman's son] the point is that he is popular and one of those that has been surviving out side of the Bat titles so odd choice for an example about Bat characters in Bat titles.

Batman doesn't have to upend his life for Damian. He doesn't even have to be in the Batman books. He has other titles and hasn't been a regular in the bat books for nearly 9 years now.

Damian fans complain when writers, mostly Batman writers [go ahead and check the comics since the new 52] write their relationship as bad yes or bruce doing out of character things. Do you expect them to like it?

The batfamily does enhance the Batman and they do enrich the story which is why Dc keeps them around. They clearly are valuable and add value.

I find it fascinating that rather than getting upset at the writers who come up with these stories that undermine batman some fans take out their ire on fans of other characters who dare to point out Batman is being undermined.

Batman will always come out on top is something we can both agree.