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  1. #46
    Incredible Member prepmaster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CPSparkles View Post
    The batfamily does enhance the Batman and they do enrich the story which is why Dc keeps them around. They clearly are valuable and add value.
    Then explain why film-makers never bother to add any Batfam member to Batman's movies? If these Bat-fam members have such large fan base, shouldnt Batman movie feature them? But instead film-makers think its not worth the money to cast actors for the roles of Batfam members.

    If there is anything, you see they are not that valuable when Harley makes it into the Batfam due to how profitable of a character she is more than most other Batfam members.
    Last edited by prepmaster; 03-04-2021 at 10:11 AM.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by prepmaster View Post
    Batman doesnt need his family to fight against superpowered threats in Justice League stories. His underlings cant even make it to the JL because they are disposable. Lesser versions of Batman.
    Dick and Cass have been on the League before.

  3. #48
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    Bat-Fam members have made it into other media though. The Adam West show and movie brought in Robin and Batgirl eventually. The Burton movies did the same eventually as well. The cartoons have used various Batfam members. Batwoman got her own show. The only one that didn't was Nolan's movies, and he had a specific story that he wanted to tell. So this idea that no one outside the comics wants to use anyone but Batman is clearly not actually a thing.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by CPSparkles View Post
    Okay lets take Damian. Damian's popularity might be in part based off of him being an Al ghul and a Wayne but that doesn't mean that's the solo reason for his success.

    Infact Damian is one of the few breakout characters from DC from the past few decades and one of the family to have his own fanbase. He is one of the family members who doesn't need to and hasn't been a regular in the bat titles. His writer choose to kill him off but WB decided to keep meaning that they saw value in him and they felt he enhanced the bat world.

    They've had several chances to get rid of him, many outs but they won't meaning that they are gaining something from having him. So the answer is yes the batman world/franchise is better with Damian. You might not agree but the people who owe batman clearly do and that is what matters.

    Doesn't matter where his popularity comes from [Superson's fans care more about his relationship with Jon than Batman's son] the point is that he is popular and one of those that has been surviving out side of the Bat titles so odd choice for an example about Bat characters in Bat titles.

    Batman doesn't have to upend his life for Damian. He doesn't even have to be in the Batman books. He has other titles and hasn't been a regular in the bat books for nearly 9 years now.

    Damian fans complain when writers, mostly Batman writers [go ahead and check the comics since the new 52] write their relationship as bad yes or bruce doing out of character things. Do you expect them to like it?

    The batfamily does enhance the Batman and they do enrich the story which is why Dc keeps them around. They clearly are valuable and add value.

    I find it fascinating that rather than getting upset at the writers who come up with these stories that undermine batman some fans take out their ire on fans of other characters who dare to point out Batman is being undermined.

    Batman will always come out on top is something we can both agree.
    I agree that Damian is popular now, but that popularity came from his connection to Batman. Being Bruce's biological son and being hailed as the son of the bat is the main contributer to his relevance, and his fans whether they admit it or not know this. In the recent Deathstroke vs Batman mini Damian fans were mad that DC might make Damian Slade's kid, why was that? Now DC didn't have the guts to pull the trigger but what if? What if DC now say actually Damian isn't Bruce's son, how does that go over? Point is family fans are always ripping Batman for any and everything. Batman fans get annoyed and don't want him to associate with them. With the way that family fans go at Bruce you would think that they would be happy with a separation from Batman, that they wouldn't want the family to have anything to do with him, but somehow they don't; why? A clean break would be best for both Batman and the family and probably the fans of both as well.

  5. #50
    Incredible Member prepmaster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowedeyes View Post
    The only one that didn't was Nolan's movies, and he had a specific story that he wanted to tell. So this idea that no one outside the comics wants to use anyone but Batman is clearly not actually a thing.
    The Nolan triology made billions out of Batman without any Batfam member. Far more sucessful than other shows. DCEU movies dont feature Batfam members much (Cass was pretty much Harley's underling in that BoP movie). The Batwoman show is basically leeching off Batman mythos.

    Even the DCAU adapts most popular stories where Batfam members like Jason died and came back as a villain or Barbara got crippled.
    Last edited by prepmaster; 03-04-2021 at 12:12 PM.

  6. #51
    Spectacular Member the1&onlyE.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The tall man View Post
    Let's take a character like Damian, he has his fans to be sure but his entire relevance comes from his connection to Batman. Let's be honest if he was just the son of Talia and some random guy or even someone like Slade he wouldn't have much relevance or staying power, he would probably be in the camp of someone like Rose Wilson. His popularity and relevance comes from him being Batman's son, having the "Son of the Bat" moniker. Yet despite that his fans for the most part love to rail against Bruce, he's the worst father, he ignores Damian, ect... As if Bruce has to upend his whole life for a brat he didn't know existed or asked for. Now the question is is Bruce a better character or is the bat mythos better off by the inclusion of Damian? No because Batman would be still as big and popular as he currently is. Same goes for any of the family, Batman isn't enhanced or enriched by any of them, they are by him, by being connected to the bat mythos. But some like to claim otherwise, that he needs them which is 100% false. The thing is that most Batman only fans wouldn't feel the way they do if family fans weren't constantly ripping and dragging Bruce, but they do. Because he doesn't act the way they want him to. In the end it doesn't matter because Batman will always come out on top.
    Damian’s relevance comes from him being son of Talia and Bruce? Yes and no. Yes, I would say in terms of first impression and marketing. “Son of X” nowadays is a very famous trope and he feeds of that, I totally agree. But just being son of someone is not a guarantee of a character’s popularity. In fact, Grant Morrison said in the past that their initial plan was to introduce Damian and kill him at the end of the arc; if that had in fact happened, Damian wouldn’t be a popular character, he would just be a quick arc that happened once. And since we are talking about sons of Batman, there are a lot of other characters who are bio kids of Bruce that are not as popular. Granted, a big part of them weren’t given the same push as Damian, but they exist, they are there, they have their stories, but you don’t see them everywhere anyway. In fact, the original Super Son of Batman was Bruce Jr. and he doesn’t exist anymore.

    That being said, just gaining a title is not enough to keep a character relevant. Damian is popular because, besides Batman’s son, he is Robin, he has a past, good stories, made connections with other characters, etc. If you personally don’t like him, that’s okay, but don’t pretend he is just known for being son of Batman.

    And if you think that the batfamily is somehow bad for Batman, tbh you’re just wrong. lol You talk as if that Batman’s popularity has always been the same as 2021's, when that can’t be farther from the truth. I remember Tom King even talked about this in a podcast during his run: Batman was not always DC’s number one. What made him famous with time were stories like Killing Joke, Death in the Family, and others, which are, surprise surprise, tied with the batfamily. I’ll add to this fact that, in the past, Batman had horrible sales and what saved him was the introduction of Robin.

    So, Batman isn’t enriched by any of them? Not correct at all, because they allow new stories and directions that wouldn’t be possible if he was alone, and that’s what makes a character famous: having good stories, yes, but also new stories that add to the mythos. But you’re crying because editorial chose to portray him as a bad father nowadays? Boo-hoo.

    And I want to note that I’m not saying necessarily that Batman needs the batfamily, because he can obviously have good stories by himself, but they are important today and they were important in the past to make him the big name he is today. The batfamily's presence doesn't need to be a rule, but should be embraced for certain tales, because they help expand them.

    Finally, I’ll also add that your complain that other characters use Batman’s name to gain attention is just irrational. Batman is a brand, DC is a business, why wouldn’t they use his popularity to create more characters and titles that they can profit over? Like you said, Batman still comes out on top anyway, so why not use this fact for their advantage? lol

    That’s all.
    Last edited by the1&onlyE.; 03-04-2021 at 02:14 PM.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by prepmaster View Post
    The Nolan triology made billions out of Batman without any Batfam member. Far more sucessful than other shows. DCEU movies dont feature Batfam members much (Cass was pretty much Harley's underling in that BoP movie). The Batwoman show is basically leeching off Batman mythos.

    Even the DCAU adapts most popular stories where Batfam members like Jason died and came back as a villain or Barbara got crippled.
    I don't think many people will argue that Batman himself isn't popular or successful. I'm certainly not at the very least. I won't even argue that the Bat Family doesn't benefit from the association with Batman. But the fact that they see use kinda implies some interest.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by the1&onlyE. View Post
    Damianís relevance comes from him being son of Talia and Bruce? Yes and no. Yes, I would say in terms of first impression and marketing. ďSon of XĒ nowadays is a very famous trope and he feeds of that, I totally agree. But just being son of someone is not a guarantee of a characterís popularity. In fact, Grant Morrison said in the past that their initial plan was to introduce Damian and kill him at the end of the arc; if that had in fact happened, Damian wouldnít be a popular character, he would just be a quick arc that happened once. And since we are talking about sons of Batman, there are a lot of other characters who are bio kids of Bruce that are not as popular. Granted, a big part of them werenít given the same push as Damian, but they exist, they are there, they have their stories, but you donít see them everywhere anyway. In fact, the original Super Son of Batman was Bruce Jr. and he doesnít exist anymore.

    That being said, just gaining a title is not enough to keep a character relevant. Damian is popular because, besides Batmanís son, he is Robin, he has a past, good stories, made connections with other characters, etc. If you personally donít like him, thatís okay, but donít pretend he is just known for being son of Batman.

    And if you think that the batfamily is somehow bad for Batman, tbh youíre just wrong. lol You talk as if that Batmanís popularity has always been the same as 2021's, when that canít be farther from the truth. I remember Tom King even talked about this in a podcast during his run: Batman was not always DCís number one. What made him famous with time were stories like Killing Joke, Death in the Family, and others, which are, surprise surprise, tied with the batfamily. Iíll add to this fact that, in the past, Batman had horrible sales and what saved him was the introduction of Robin.

    So, Batman isnít enriched by any of them? Not correct at all, because they allow new stories and directions that wouldnít be possible if he was alone, and thatís what makes a character famous: having good stories, yes, but also new stories that add to the mythos. But youíre crying because editorial chose to portray him as a bad father nowadays? Boo-hoo.

    And I want to note that Iím not saying necessarily that Batman needs the batfamily, because he can obviously have good stories by himself, but they are important today and they were important in the past to make him the big name he is today. The batfamily's presence doesn't need to be a rule, but should be embraced for certain tales, because they help expand them.

    Finally, Iíll also add that your complain that other characters use Batmanís name to gain attention is just irrational. Batman is a brand, DC is a business, why wouldnít they use his popularity to create more characters and titles that they can profit over? Like you said, Batman still comes out on top anyway, so why not use this fact for their advantage? lol

    Thatís all.
    Tom king's run is best to be forgotten so his thoughts on Batman's popularity means nothing. The thought that Batman needs the family to be popular or that he's only popular because of them has absolutely no merit. Batman is popular because of who he is, the stories told with him, his villains and Gotham as a whole; the family is not needed in any capacity. There are countless new stories that can be told without the family, Batman can continue on indefinitely without them; people read Batman for Batman not for the family. As for Damian; if DC severed all ties between him and Batman, completely removed him from all things Bat, no longer Bruce's son how long before he starts to fade in relevance? If his solo gets cancelled what happens without the Bat to fallback on? Batman fans are just fed up with all the hate family fans heap on Batman, always ripping him for everything but wanting the family to stay in his orbit.

  9. #54
    Spectacular Member the1&onlyE.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The tall man View Post
    Tom king's run is best to be forgotten so his thoughts on Batman's popularity means nothing. The thought that Batman needs the family to be popular or that he's only popular because of them has absolutely no merit. Batman is popular because of who he is, the stories told with him, his villains and Gotham as a whole; the family is not needed in any capacity. There are countless new stories that can be told without the family, Batman can continue on indefinitely without them; people read Batman for Batman not for the family. As for Damian; if DC severed all ties between him and Batman, completely removed him from all things Bat, no longer Bruce's son how long before he starts to fade in relevance? If his solo gets cancelled what happens without the Bat to fallback on? Batman fans are just fed up with all the hate family fans heap on Batman, always ripping him for everything but wanting the family to stay in his orbit.
    Never mind Tom King; this is not an opinion, is a fact. I just mentioned him, because, while I am literally just a random person on the internet, he's a professional that wrote Batman and know a lot of his history.

    And I think you didn't understand what I said. I'm not saying Batman needs the batfamily to be popular or that he's only popular because of them, I said that one of the big factors that made him popular was the batfamily. There's a huge difference and that's a fact, no point in denying it. It's obvious that he can have a lot of stories without him, because he has a lot of stories without them.

    As for Damian, I honestly don't know. It would depend on a lot of factors, there's not a closed answer to this. I do think it would affect his popularity, but this doesn't necessarily mean he would disappear. It depends.

    And I understand that Batman fans are fed up with the hate, I really do! And, of course, it's obvious that the bayfamily benefits from Batman's popularity. But that doesn't justify saying that the batfamily is completely unimportant, that's what I meant with my huge rant.
    Last edited by the1&onlyE.; 03-04-2021 at 03:14 PM.

  10. #55
    Mighty Member SixSpeedSamurai's Avatar
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    I enjoyed it mostly, though I think Jimenez is highly overrated on art. He shows flashes of great stuff sometimes, but not most of the time. I liked the art in the Damian backup story more.

    I honestly don't have any interest in "not as rich" Bruce Wayne. I don't hate it, I just don't care. It was nice to see Bab's back on the screen though.
    Pulls: Batman, Detective Comics, Star Wars, Crossover, Commanders in Crisis, Something is Killing the Children, Flash, Nightwing, and Iron Man.
    My runs: Batman #232, 239- and Detective #438-.

  11. #56
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    So is it the new batman

  12. #57
    Incredible Member Light of Justice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The tall man View Post
    Tom king's run is best to be forgotten so his thoughts on Batman's popularity means nothing. The thought that Batman needs the family to be popular or that he's only popular because of them has absolutely no merit. Batman is popular because of who he is, the stories told with him, his villains and Gotham as a whole; the family is not needed in any capacity. There are countless new stories that can be told without the family, Batman can continue on indefinitely without them; people read Batman for Batman not for the family. As for Damian; if DC severed all ties between him and Batman, completely removed him from all things Bat, no longer Bruce's son how long before he starts to fade in relevance? If his solo gets cancelled what happens without the Bat to fallback on? Batman fans are just fed up with all the hate family fans heap on Batman, always ripping him for everything but wanting the family to stay in his orbit.

    Batman fans are just fed up with all the hate family fans heap on Batman, always ripping him for everything but wanting the family to stay in his orbit.
    I have to disagree with this. Batfam fans didn't really want family to stick on Batman's orbit, nor hating him because they were excluded from his book. If anything, some family members are quite content on their solo books and didn't have any mention of Bruce, nor prevent Bruce's solo arc. Take an example when Bruce went amnesic on New52. Dick had Grayson, Damian had RSOB, Jason had Outlaw and Tim has Teen Titans. No appearance of Bruce except maybe on prologue and they went off on their own, doing their own thing. They were brought together as family on Robin War, and that arc is completely independent from Batman main books. Even though Tim's N52 Teen Titans era was a failure, fans didn't blame Batman's disappearance for it. Why? Because he has plausible reason to be away and his relationship with them was quite content-ish (as content as they can). I don't know much about Batgirls sorry CMIIW, but I don't see fans blame Batman for Cass's mistreatment.

    But now why Batfam fans collectively hate Batman? Because, what should we do when the narrative literally paint current Batman in worst possible color? When he punched Jason and even Catwoman belittled Batman for it? When Bruce was clearly shown ignoring Dick when Dick was amnesic? When the book clearly portray Batman forget Damian's birthday and do nothing when No Justice book also clearly stated that Batman knew Damian would use his own rule while also repeatedly shown how young and how tiny Damian is? When the book also clearly showed Bruce punched Tim just because he was asking about his relationship with Catwoman? DC tried to make it better, gave fans some make up plot, but half asses damage repair only fuel fan's hatred more. Batman went to Jason, gave him news about Roy's death, hug. Done. Oh, Bruce punched Tim is actually secret code. Done. And you know, actually Bruce watched over Dick while he was amnesic but apparently did nothing when he was brainwashed by Scarecrow and Joker, then he gave Dick his costume and Nightwing title back. Done. Tomasi's Damian arc, while quite nice, is completely pointless. Like reader can practically skip that arc and read back up after reading TT annual 2.

    I have to say current Batman deserves all the hate he was received. It's not like Batfam fans demand Batman to be written abusive toward Batfamily. Batfam fans hate that. Batman fans hate that. But why DC write Batman like that? The blatant negative narrative between Batfam members (especially Batman) is the problem here for me.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by prepmaster View Post
    Then explain why film-makers never bother to add any Batfam member to Batman's movies? If these Bat-fam members have such large fan base, shouldnt Batman movie feature them? But instead film-makers think its not worth the money to cast actors for the roles of Batfam members.

    If there is anything, you see they are not that valuable when Harley makes it into the Batfam due to how profitable of a character she is more than most other Batfam members.
    Batgirl and Robin appeared in the Schumacher films and the Batfamily regularly features in t.v. shows, video games and animated movies.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Batgirl and Robin appeared in the Schumacher films and the Batfamily regularly features in t.v. shows, video games and animated movies.
    Horrible movie, but you are correct. Per Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman_in_film), there have been 14 Batman films (not counting his more cameo appearances; 15 with the upcoming movie). Robin has been in 3 movies; Batgirl has been in 1 (but same movie).

    Three out of fourteen movies have featured Batfamily, which means about 21% of movies have featured the Batfamily in some fashion. I'd imagine that the number of comic book issues of Batman that feature the Batfamily is equivalent or lower percentage. So the fact that the current Batman writer is trying to promote the Batfamily, does in fact reflect an appetite for Batfamily.

    You could argue that the modern era has largely excluded Batfamily, as reflective of Nolan/Snyder's "grittier" take on Batman, so the goalposts could be moved to argue that there isn't an appetite for Batfamily in the modern era. But that is more reflective of how large of a disaster the Schumacher Batfilm was, that the pendulum swung so far away.

  15. #60
    Astonishing Member HsssH's Avatar
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    Can we get some middle ground here about some batfamily being good, but main issue being that there are like 50 characters that can be filled under "batfamily" term? Is Robin even a part of "batfamily"? He was around for decades before someone even came up with this term.

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