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  1. #1
    Mighty Member Castle's Avatar
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    Default X-Men: First Class (2011) Rewatch and Thoughts.

    Some stuff to unload here about this film.

    My feelings have sure changed a bit unlike X-Men 3 last stand. I will now put the film as a tie between X2/DOFP as the best in the main series. I also have a new appreciation for the film because of the content, maybe I took this for granted but at the same time, I would not have predicted the road comic films would have taken by the time the decade was over.


    Strengths

    The cast. It almost rivals the cast of the 2000’s movie. Michael Fassbender and James Mcavoy brought their A games, the only little issue I may have is , they don’t actually look like the younger versions of Ian Mckellen and Patrick Stewart.

    Story-Plot. the screenplay was sharp, aware and mostly well written with compelling characters. this is one of the strongest screenplays for a comic book movie, as the movie can still be a proper film if we take away the most common generic comic bookie part in your standard superhero film.

    Technical aspect. First Class has some of the best use of score, cinematography and VFX from the entire series. Magneto pulling a submarine from the sea (VFX and score), Magneto in Argentina, Xavier in a london Victorian settings bar, (Cinematography),

    Mathew Vaughn really forged his path as a director. He never shot the film to be obsessively grounded like only Singer could but he still kept the essential realism that was expected for an X-Men movie.

    I personally think Magneto pulling a submarine from the sea was a better VFX moment in the series than the nightcrawler scene or the quicksilver scene from X2/DOFP because it had character development for Magneto.

    The themes, politics and 60s Era. this is the strongest part of the film, the series interplayed the real events of the 60s, juggling the cold war and the civil rights story and interlinking them with superpowered mutants. Very well put together, the writers of this film made this the core part of the entire story from the beginning to the end, the cold war took up 85% of the entire plot, while it interplayed some of the call backs of the civil rights era, sometimes even in excellent subtle ways compared to the come out scene from X2 with Iceman.

    Magneto vs Xavier: This is the best movie of the Magneto vs Xavier relationship. It is also the only movie they come to physical blows with eachother in the original timeline.

    Moreover this is the one movie we do see the deepest extent of their differences that was dispalyed without magneto acting too much like the mostly cynical person Ian Mckellen's Magneto became.

    Good tone with some humor. Contrary to popular belief, I don’t hate jokes, this film had some but still found the balance to keep its drama set narrative, it is not as dark as the mixed-negative reception of X-men Last Stand, but the middle-road tone even with some of the dark parts resonates stronger unlike X3.

    Plotlines for Supporting characters. If I was assuming that Mcavoy and Fassbender where the main characters, the other characters got to do something that held my interest. Beast, mystique and Moria , all 3 characters had issues to deal with that are familiar, the person that sticks out most is Moria working in the CIA as a woman and dealing with constant sexism. Also A very good background for Mystique’s rebellion that leads to the sequel and Beast and his cure invention was a ‘’sad’’ moment. the second heaviest as Magneto's mum is shot.

    Almost perfect third act. Magneto killing shaw and trying to blow up the USA and USSR submarines soldiers. I rest the case. (however I will also list other parts of the 3rd act as a weakness ).


    Weaknesses

    Timeline. As much as some have said, the film was a return to form after the lows of X3 and Wolverine Origins. The movie started the timeline mess of the entire series, a downward spiral path that the series will never recover from. Which is ironic because the opening scene of first class is one of the best scenes in the series, since it is an extension from the opening scene of X-Men 1.


    3rd Act Battle. I did not like the final mini battle between the new xmen team and the hellfire club I felt it was just put there because comic films are just meant to have some sort of fight in the last act, (generic) also the fight was not necessary. Xavier could have put the hellfire gang to sleep.

    However, the 3rd act is extremely saved by the final showdown between Magneto , Shaw and Cold war soldiers.

    Emma Frost. I never cared much about January Jones performance, I know some fans complained about her. However I just hated how Emma was around in the 60s and as a one done deal.

    Darwin’s death.

    The Mystique Problem: I don’t know if I should call this a true negative but rewatching the film , I see Jennifer through that blue makeup now.

    She also lacked the grace of Rebecca Romjin, however I am not sure Rebecca would have acted how mystique was characterised in the film. I will take into account, this was mystique when she was young. Nonetheless, I still prefer Rebecca to Jennifer if I take all the movies into consideration.

    please feel free to add more positives and negatives of the film.

    While I really cannot say for a fact that this is the best main X-Men movie, First Class is the best political and social conscious X-Men film and arguably the best of the marvel films in that era ever done to date.

    It is also very essential in the series film history because it was a good but never-to-be-repeated entry again, only Deadpool 1 competes with it.

    X1, X2, DOFP all have the same familiarity and so did The Wolverine/Logan because those directors came back for more than one film. Mathew Vaughn directed only once and possibly made the best in the series.
    Last edited by Castle; 03-02-2021 at 07:28 PM.

  2. #2
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Think it's one of the stronger installments in the series, with some pretty good casting choices (although a lot of the supporting characters are wasted). The plot does meander a bit, although it mostly balances the more serious themes with the James Bond-style silliness that the '60s era and villain's scheme is used for (is Shaw a deep or complex character? No, but but you want a hammy villain of the "I'm evil and loving it" variety, this's the kind you want). Do have to say that I prefer a lot of the other X-Men movies to this one, but I think that's more to do with personal preference then anything else.
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  3. #3
    Astonishing Member Jekyll's Avatar
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    Typically I am not a fan of Henry Jackman's scores but his theme for Magneto in this film is completely badass! Particularly, the scene in the bar.
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  4. #4
    Mighty Member Castle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Think it's one of the stronger installments in the series, with some pretty good casting choices (although a lot of the supporting characters are wasted).
    this is one of the better ones that did more with supporting characters. The training montage with xavier training baby x-men, beast subplot about the cure are just a few. In fact beast story was heavier than xavier's. Moria and Mystique (female characters) also had solid plots in the film. also no Wolverine in the film . so other characters here did have some spotlight without the air sucked out.


    The plot does meander a bit, although it mostly balances the more serious themes with the James Bond-style silliness that the '60s era and villain's scheme is used for

    I don't think the plot minders a bit. the third act ignoring the x-men vs hellfire fight was the best act of the film, which for today standards is a miracle since comic films usually loose everything by the third act. Xavier getting shot and paralysed, magneto trying to blow up the submarine, Shaw death's Mystique leaving Xavier for Magneto and President Kennedy closing speech about the cold war.

    the third act was also the best nail in why xavier and magneto will never completely get along, which is what went on to define most of the main series in the original timeline. not only that but it show how complex the world of xmen is even from a non mutant pov

    Xavier: There are millions of men than there just following others?

    Magneto: I have been at the mercy of men just following others never again


    Again did I mention shaw's death is one of the best written deserved villain's death in movies? not to mention the foreshadowing behind it all. You really think it minders a bit, I found it more fulfilling because shaw's dies by the coin he gave magneto as a present for killing his mum. the story came full circle

    the other themes the movie touched on with Xavier trying to rehabilitate magneto, Xavier clearly fails at that moment because Magneto was still not listening on how to balance his rage and serenity. There was a lot of commentary to unpack with the final story of the film. it definitely was the most heaviest.

    LOL. There also want not any James bond silliness similarity here, lmao I will put that more with 80s setting of X-Men apocalypse.. 60s bond is what I will call campy now by 2021 not even silly/ also, silly bond is more associated with Piers Borsan Bond not Sean Connery 60s bond. This is the reason the Daniel Craig reboot went more for a grounded and gritty Bond. now I am going too off topic.


    First Class thanks to the tone, lighting and cinematography of the film striped away any silliness. First class is more period piece seting, in the sense that you can tell the movie was not taking place in the 2010s.

    (is Shaw a deep or complex character? No, but but you want a hammy villain of the "I'm evil and loving it" variety, this's the kind you want).
    That wasn't shaw at all. shaw was mostly more of a bogey man kind of villain, he functioned normally as a normal person, he was not even hiding or giving villain's speeches to the world.

    in-universe, he was written as mostly a vague character, who had his own plans , among the plans of the USA/USSR Cold war conflict he inserted his way in, the only part of i am evil and loving it was the first scene where he kills magneto's mum, which was more of a nazi fictional trope of torturing jewish kids. did you really watch this film?



    Do have to say that I prefer a lot of the other X-Men movies to this one, but I think that's more to do with personal preference then anything else.
    I agree with personally preferences but I have noticed one thing about this particular film in the series, those that love it, always tend to dislike the films singer directed. I am beginning to see and understand why. it is only of recent I now come to think of it as a contender for the best of the entire series.
    Last edited by Castle; 03-03-2021 at 05:09 AM.

  5. #5
    Mighty Member Castle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jekyll View Post
    Typically I am not a fan of Henry Jackman's scores but his theme for Magneto in this film is completely badass! Particularly, the scene in the bar.
    Was it Henry Jackman? had no clue. he is so underrated.

    The bar scene is arguably the best scene of the film. from a film making POV. score, cinematography and story. The acting alone by Fassbenderr, I don't speak german but I understood everything magneto was saying because of the way he delivers the dialogue.




    this for me is part of the reason i started to see the film much differently. However I must admit some of my prejudice behind not considering this film as the best in the series was because it was young xmen
    Last edited by Castle; 03-03-2021 at 04:41 AM.

  6. #6
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    this is one of the better ones that did more with supporting characters. The training montage with xavier training baby x-men, beast subplot about the cure are just a few. In fact beast story was heavier than xavier's. Moria and Mystique (female characters) also had solid plots in the film. also no Wolverine in the film . so other characters here did have some spotlight without the air sucked out.
    Dunno, outside of Mystique and Beast, none of the minor characters were given much to do (compare how the Spider-Verse movie introduced half of the main team late in the film and they still managed to be both memorable and fleshed out to varying degrees). Personally, I think one of the main flaws of the Fox X-Men series was that it could not balance screen times for large casts very well.


    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    I don't think the plot minders a bit. the third act ignoring the x-men vs hellfire fight was the best act of the film, which for today standards is a miracle since comic films usually loose everything by the third act. Xavier getting shot and paralysed, magneto trying to blow up the submarine, Shaw death's Mystique leaving Xavier for Magneto and President Kennedy closing speech about the cold war.
    Maybe "meandering" is the wrong word, but there's something wonky about the pacing. Shaw gets built up as this urgent threat, but then that gets paused for slower, funnier scenes (e.g. the mutants goofing off, the training montage) that undercut that pacing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    the third act was also the best nail in why xavier and magneto will never completely get along, which is what went on to define most of the main series in the original timeline. not only that but it show how complex the world of xmen is even from a non mutant pov

    Xavier: There are millions of men than there just following others?

    Magneto: I have been at the mercy of men just following others never again


    Again did I mention shaw's death is one of the best written deserved villain's death in movies? not to mention the foreshadowing behind it all. You really think it minders a bit, I found it more fulfilling because shaw's dies by the coin he gave magneto as a present for killing his mum. the story came full circle
    Good third act, sure and Shaw was giving a fitting end. However, both are neither here nor there with the pacing issues.

    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    the other themes the movie touched on with Xavier trying to rehabilitate magneto, Xavier clearly fails at that moment because Magneto was still not listening on how to balance his rage and serenity. There was a lot of commentary to unpack with the final story of the film. it definitely was the most heaviest.
    The movie probably had the new actors delivering their best performances across the board.

    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    LOL. There also want not any James bond silliness similarity here, lmao I will put that more with 80s setting of X-Men apocalypse.. 60s bond is what I will call campy now by 2021 not even silly/ also, silly bond is more associated with Piers Borsan Bond not Sean Connery 60s bond. This is the reason the Daniel Craig reboot went more for a grounded and gritty Bond. now I am going too off topic.


    First Class thanks to the tone, lighting and cinematography of the film striped away any silliness. First class is more period piece seting, in the sense that you can tell the movie was not taking place in the 2010s.
    High tech submarine base? Villain wanting to conquer the world through an over the top, convoluted plan that doesn't hold up to any level of scrutiny? That is pure James Bond silliness right there, and it is glorious. I think Apocalypse is more generic superhero blockbuster then anything else. It does have some "silly" moments, but, unlike First Class, where the campiness is intended and presented with a point, Apocalypse suffers a bit from stuff that comes across as funny but wasn't supposed to be. (All that said, I can't say that I hate Apocalypse; weak movie, sure, but I find it enjoyable enough for what it is.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    That wasn't shaw at all. shaw was mostly more of a bogey man kind of villain, he functioned normally as a normal person, he was not even hiding or giving villain's speeches to the world.
    Check any of the scenes where he's talking to people outside of his scene (e.g. when he kills the general, tries to recruit the future X-Men, and monologues to Magneto).

    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    in-universe, he was written as mostly a vague character, who had his own plans , among the plans of the USA/USSR Cold war conflict he inserted his way in, the only part of i am evil and loving it was the first scene where he kills magneto's mum, which was more of a nazi fictional trope of torturing jewish kids. did you really watch this film?
    Got the BluRay on my shelf.


    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    I agree with personally preferences but I have noticed one thing about this particular film in the series, those that love it, always tend to dislike the films singer directed. I am beginning to see and understand why. it is only of recent I now come to think of it as a contender for the best of the entire series.
    Think that Days of Future Past was his best work. I like X1, but it hasn't aged well, X2 is good, but I kinda think is overrated, and Apocalypse, as noted before, is fun, but not really innovative.

    Also have to agree that Henry Jackman did a good score (course, I do like his work in general).
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  7. #7
    My Face Is Up Here Powerboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    Was it Henry Jackman? had no clue. he is so underrated.

    The bar scene is arguably the best scene of the film. from a film making POV. score, cinematography and story. The acting alone by Fassbenderr, I don't speak german but I understood everything magneto was saying because of the way he delivers the dialogue.




    this for me is part of the reason i started to see the film much differently. However I must admit some of my prejudice behind not considering this film as the best in the series was because it was young xmen
    I have only seen the movie once and actually couldn't remember exactly what happened in that bar scene until I saw it again here. It took a moment to realize that, oh yes, this is 1962. Those men would have been in WWII only seventeen or eighteen years ago.

    I need to watch the movie again. I thought it was excellent and did a good job of setting up for the rewrite of history in DOFP. As for my favorite scene, I am going to avoid using the word "trumps" for obvious reasons and substitute the word "overrides". To paraphrase, "I hope you can hear me though I don't know if you can. I want you to know I agree with everything you've said about mutant superiority and so on. BUT, you killed my mother and that overrides everything else".
    Power with Girl is better.

  8. #8
    Mighty Member Castle's Avatar
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    I think I may prefer sPiderverse as a film but I have to rewatch it again, first class is fresher in my mind. If I consider, magneto and xavier as the main leading guys. Beast, Mystique, Shaw and Moria will be mostly supporting than after that Banshee, the angel chick.
    So those are 5-6 noticeable characters, the film covered all of that well. they had personal meaningful stories that amounted to something and in 2021 with the issue of racism and sexism as such a hot topic, I see things with a better eyes.

    I for a long time sort of gave up on the ensemble comic films, it is just impossible for a comic film to deliver a great film, for X-Men it is even 10x as hard because of the nature of their stories. X-Men was always better on tv, you will always see fans say they prefer their cartoons. drama driven ensemble comic book films for xmen stories in film will always come up shot because there are just too many characters, many comic films that tried to do ensembles and try to put so many characters all as equals leading guys just end up as mostly CGI driven movies with little substance or credible story telling. The real weakness of the xmen series , is maybe it over used some characters as focus but this is more of an external criticism as a primary comic book fan.

    The mutant montage was I guess the most fun of the film, but it hardly cut the pacing, it was the next phase of the movie's devlopment. Darwin had just been killed, the baby xmen got to see how powerful shaw was, however xavier is still hesitance to train them until magneto steps in and says they are not kids any more, and it's time they get to school and start learning

    the scene also was not about entire goofing but a combination of other things like Beast making the cure, Mystique struggling with her identity and perhaps the best emotional moment in the film. something that is now seen as a classic in comic book story telling. the point between rage and serenity and Magneto and Xavier actually cry about that. The irony that this is the best part of what is suppose to be a goofy montage first class.



    I believe Shaw had more than three scenes in the entire movie. don't have to rewatch the movie again but I am sure of it.

    Shaw is what I will call an anchor character/Villain to Magneto that was an anti hero. for most of the film, he is in control until he has his brain sliced.

    Got the BluRay on my shelf.
    Please rewatch , you seem to be skipping a lot


    Think that Days of Future Past was his best work. I like X1, but it hasn't aged well, X2 is good, but I kinda think is overrated, and Apocalypse, as noted before, is fun, but not really innovative.
    not to go into full rehash again, A 20 years old movie that is still worth something in the genre. This is a the definition of ageing well not been aged, when you think many films today and quickly forgotten after 2 weeks because they dont even have the courage to open a movie in nazi camps and use that to set the tone for mature and deeper thought out films.

    Studios dont make X2 anymore because they will find it talkative, with little action, dark, big subject matters and no big final CGI fights, grounded use of cinematography for comic book movies, director's own movie and all that stuff. In an hot era where we question how much film making goes into blockbuster movies today or how cartoony comic book movies are even just recently after Wonder Woman 2, X2 is one of the best example of the later. I think the praise the movie earned was worth it and worth a lot more now.

    It's funny you bring up X2, I was talking loosely about it on the r rated thread, this is a good example of how to make a silent good R Rated film with pg 13 rating, so there is a lot of good here the film has to itself when you think about things after 20 years in what is now a truly different era.

    Also have to agree that Henry Jackman did a good score (course, I do like his work in general).
    Agreed.

    It was just not about the score, is how he uses the score to push important character moments. there is a big difference in score when Magneto kills nazis and when he lifts the submarine. one was age, the other serenity, which goes back to the inner human themes of the film. Really good film making choices from Mathew Vaughn. a part film directors get under-praised for.
    Last edited by Castle; 03-03-2021 at 06:43 PM.

  9. #9
    Mighty Member Castle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powerboy View Post
    I have only seen the movie once and actually couldn't remember exactly what happened in that bar scene until I saw it again here. It took a moment to realize that, oh yes, this is 1962. Those men would have been in WWII only seventeen or eighteen years ago.

    I need to watch the movie again. I thought it was excellent and did a good job of setting up for the rewrite of history in DOFP. As for my favorite scene, I am going to avoid using the word "trumps" for obvious reasons and substitute the word "overrides". To paraphrase, "I hope you can hear me though I don't know if you can. I want you to know I agree with everything you've said about mutant superiority and so on. BUT, you killed my mother and that overrides everything else".



    It showed one of the more complex parts of the film , if we think about it as Magneto and Shaw were two villains, who sort of also want the same for mutants. magneto even agrees more with shaw about mutants rising to rule compared to Xavier. on a regular day, shaw should be a better partner for magneto than xavier but magento still has to kill him because while the mutant stuff is deep for magneto, and they have common grounds, his mother's death was deeper. so the story is layered


    Shaw had it coming when he used the same coin he gave to magneto after he killed his mum as a thank you gift, Shaws dies by the same coin. It is a very good display of fate and predestination.

    What X2, First Class and DOFP had in common was the 3rd act was more about conflicted characters moments sometimes very overdramatic like that scene Xavier screams in pain and magneto breaks shaw's head in two but still good overdramatic. it's xmen , it's a soap opera. It's not about big world scale big cgi final battles and any time they went for that, like X3 and Apocalypse those floundered.

    The reason I am harder on first class compared to the other two was because the hellfire vs xmen fight was just not necessary at all.I really cannot overlook that. it hurts the 3rd act by 30%

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    I thought Banshee’s powers were well portrayed...he would have been a good supporting character had he been given a personality and something to do. Should have kept him Irish, though.

  11. #11
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    I think I may prefer sPiderverse as a film but I have to rewatch it again, first class is fresher in my mind. If I consider, magneto and xavier as the main leading guys. Beast, Mystique, Shaw and Moria will be mostly supporting than after that Banshee, the angel chick.
    So those are 5-6 noticeable characters, the film covered all of that well. they had personal meaningful stories that amounted to something and in 2021 with the issue of racism and sexism as such a hot topic, I see things with a better eyes.
    Maybe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    I for a long time sort of gave up on the ensemble comic films, it is just impossible for a comic film to deliver a great film, for X-Men it is even 10x as hard because of the nature of their stories. X-Men was always better on tv, you will always see fans say they prefer their cartoons. drama driven ensemble comic book films for xmen stories in film will always come up shot because there are just too many characters, many comic films that tried to do ensembles and try to put so many characters all as equals leading guys just end up as mostly CGI driven movies with little substance or credible story telling. The real weakness of the xmen series , is maybe it over used some characters as focus but this is more of an external criticism as a primary comic book fan.
    It can be done; the MCU Avenger movies consistently managed to give their large casts all something to do and keep it extremely character-centric, so it was possible for the Fox movies to have done it, too. Still, it's all by degrees. I think First Class did better then the original X-Men trilogy in terms of giving more characters to do.

    Could see a point about a TV show, animated or otherwise, having more space for a wider cast. I myself really like the X-Men: Evolution cartoon, which did manage to give everyone the spotlight and keep Wolverine from hogging it. Course, as noted before, we've seen that long-running film series can accomplish the same if the right people are calling the shots, so make of that what you will.

    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    The mutant montage was I guess the most fun of the film, but it hardly cut the pacing, it was the next phase of the movie's devlopment. Darwin had just been killed, the baby xmen got to see how powerful shaw was, however xavier is still hesitance to train them until magneto steps in and says they are not kids any more, and it's time they get to school and start learning
    Think it had something to do with the montage making it feel like the ticking clock that the Hellfire Club scenes had created was paused, if that makes any sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    the scene also was not about entire goofing but a combination of other things like Beast making the cure, Mystique struggling with her identity and perhaps the best emotional moment in the film. something that is now seen as a classic in comic book story telling. the point between rage and serenity and Magneto and Xavier actually cry about that. The irony that this is the best part of what is suppose to be a goofy montage first class.
    I was more thinking the earlier scene where the movie stops for an info dump with the recruits telling us what their powers are. There are ways to make a blatant info dump work (see Spider-Man: Far From Home), but, as funny as it is, it just slows the movie down and doesn't really tell us that much about the characters. (In theory, that same information could've been given in the recruitment montage -- and in some cases, the info dump was just repeating stuff we already knew.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    I believe Shaw had more than three scenes in the entire movie. don't have to rewatch the movie again but I am sure of it.

    Shaw is what I will call an anchor character/Villain to Magneto that was an anti hero. for most of the film, he is in control until he has his brain sliced.
    Maybe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    Please rewatch , you seem to be skipping a lot
    I'm actually not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    not to go into full rehash again, A 20 years old movie that is still worth something in the genre. This is a the definition of ageing well not been aged, when you think many films today and quickly forgotten after 2 weeks because they dont even have the courage to open a movie in nazi camps and use that to set the tone for mature and deeper thought out films.
    Let's just say that X1 was a step forward, but the genre has evolved since. Even within the Fox series we've seen improvement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    Studios dont make X2 anymore because they will find it talkative, with little action, dark, big subject matters and no big final CGI fights, grounded use of cinematography for comic book movies, director's own movie and all that stuff. In an hot era where we question how much film making goes into blockbuster movies today or how cartoony comic book movies are even just recently after Wonder Woman 2, X2 is one of the best example of the later. I think the praise the movie earned was worth it and worth a lot more now.
    I think they make a wider variety of movies now, and I like that. Sometimes you want something more serious, sometimes you want to relax, and other times something really cartoony is in order.

    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    It's funny you bring up X2, I was talking loosely about it on the r rated thread, this is a good example of how to make a silent good R Rated film with pg 13 rating, so there is a lot of good here the film has to itself when you think about things after 20 years in what is now a truly different era.
    There wasn't anything R-rated about X2.

    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    Agreed.

    It was just not about the score, is how he uses the score to push important character moments. there is a big difference in score when Magneto kills nazis and when he lifts the submarine. one was age, the other serenity, which goes back to the inner human themes of the film. Really good film making choices from Mathew Vaughn. a part film directors get under-praised for.
    Have heard the idea that if you're not thinking about the score as the movie is playing, then the composer and crew did their jobs right.
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
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  12. #12
    Mighty Member Castle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Maybe?



    It can be done; the MCU Avenger movies consistently managed to give their large casts all something to do and keep it extremely character-centric, so it was possible for the Fox movies to have done it, too. Still, it's all by degrees. I think First Class did better then the original X-Men trilogy in terms of giving more characters to do.
    .
    Avengers is not X-Men though, I am sure marvel made up both teams for different reasons. Avengers movies are mostly driven by CGI, action and paint and dry plots. Avengers is more Transformers or Godzilla in movies, X-Men is more drama and many other elements like soap opera and social commentary, you have to specifically select some characters you need to focus on for that to work better with movies.

    Joss whedon worked on both series and he ended up with different results. His astonishing xmen books was very different from Avengers movies. This was already touched upon on the X-MEN 3 last stand thread.

    https://community.cbr.com/showthread...h-and-Thoughts

    Everyone almost agreed that had X3 just focused on the cure storyline, it would have been a great movie. the cure story line was the first volume of astonishing xmen. it does not take a rocket scientist to see how different in tone and story subject was to the avengers films, and X3 cure plot was still sort of dumbed down compared to the books, so imagine if things were different?

    The only thing that was common about the Whedon's Avengers and X-Men stuff was the humour and jokes but even Whedon limited it in the astonishing x-men, comparing that to his avengers films that are basically light hearted action-comedy. whereas the cure story line was suited more for hard drama with a much darker tone.

    Honestly I wish an Avengers fan like yourself knew more about the marvel characters or IPs from the books than what Kevin Fiege shows you in film. it is baffling to me to mix them up- avengers/xmen. this is a more bizarre mix up than some thinking Spiderman and Ant-Man are one and the same, thereby justifying why their movies are so alike.

    Think it had something to do with the montage making it feel like the ticking clock that the Hellfire Club scenes had created was paused, if that makes any sense.

    We will have to see that differently. I see the ''montage'' more as an entry to the clear cut 2nd act of the movie.

    I'm actually not.
    ok, I will have to keep filling the skipped part. hopefully not for long

    I think they make a wider variety of movies now, and I like that. Sometimes you want something more serious, sometimes you want to relax, and other times something really cartoony is in order.
    Nah, I think there is less variety , the genre has gotten so over big on itself, 20 years ago with X2, most comic films still felt indie minded. the last time there was a serious comic film was Joker and this is because it felt more as if the movie was made 20 years ago. it's a director-driven stand alone movie.


    There wasn't anything R-rated about X2.
    There was, but as this is not the thread for that, only thing I will say is I expect the snyder's cut to feel more like X2 than Joker/Logan/Deadpool if Snyder is right on why he gave this movie R. X2 was originally already rated r but quickly changed because fox did not want to risk anything

    Have heard the idea that if you're not thinking about the score as the movie is playing, then the composer and crew did their jobs right.

    the movie's story and score have to meet and find a middle ground. the score is meant to sometimes capture a moment, so often with emotions, this is why I pointed out how he uses drastic different scores to express some of magneto's personality. But you can also find this in other films like Sunset Bolivard or Prisoner of Askaban
    Last edited by Castle; 03-04-2021 at 02:37 AM.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    Some stuff to unload here about this film.

    My feelings have sure changed a bit unlike X-Men 3 last stand. I will now put the film as a tie between X2/DOFP as the best in the main series. I also have a new appreciation for the film because of the content, maybe I took this for granted but at the same time, I would not have predicted the road comic films would have taken by the time the decade was over.


    Strengths

    The cast. It almost rivals the cast of the 2000’s movie. Michael Fassbender and James Mcavoy brought their A games, the only little issue I may have is , they don’t actually look like the younger versions of Ian Mckellen and Patrick Stewart.

    Story-Plot. the screenplay was sharp, aware and mostly well written with compelling characters. this is one of the strongest screenplays for a comic book movie, as the movie can still be a proper film if we take away the most common generic comic bookie part in your standard superhero film.

    Technical aspect. First Class has some of the best use of score, cinematography and VFX from the entire series. Magneto pulling a submarine from the sea (VFX and score), Magneto in Argentina, Xavier in a london Victorian settings bar, (Cinematography),

    Mathew Vaughn really forged his path as a director. He never shot the film to be obsessively grounded like only Singer could but he still kept the essential realism that was expected for an X-Men movie.

    I personally think Magneto pulling a submarine from the sea was a better VFX moment in the series than the nightcrawler scene or the quicksilver scene from X2/DOFP because it had character development for Magneto.

    The themes, politics and 60s Era. this is the strongest part of the film, the series interplayed the real events of the 60s, juggling the cold war and the civil rights story and interlinking them with superpowered mutants. Very well put together, the writers of this film made this the core part of the entire story from the beginning to the end, the cold war took up 85% of the entire plot, while it interplayed some of the call backs of the civil rights era, sometimes even in excellent subtle ways compared to the come out scene from X2 with Iceman.

    Magneto vs Xavier: This is the best movie of the Magneto vs Xavier relationship. It is also the only movie they come to physical blows with eachother in the original timeline.

    Moreover this is the one movie we do see the deepest extent of their differences that was dispalyed without magneto acting too much like the mostly cynical person Ian Mckellen's Magneto became.

    Good tone with some humor. Contrary to popular belief, I don’t hate jokes, this film had some but still found the balance to keep its drama set narrative, it is not as dark as the mixed-negative reception of X-men Last Stand, but the middle-road tone even with some of the dark parts resonates stronger unlike X3.

    Plotlines for Supporting characters. If I was assuming that Mcavoy and Fassbender where the main characters, the other characters got to do something that held my interest. Beast, mystique and Moria , all 3 characters had issues to deal with that are familiar, the person that sticks out most is Moria working in the CIA as a woman and dealing with constant sexism. Also A very good background for Mystique’s rebellion that leads to the sequel and Beast and his cure invention was a ‘’sad’’ moment. the second heaviest as Magneto's mum is shot.

    Almost perfect third act. Magneto killing shaw and trying to blow up the USA and USSR submarines soldiers. I rest the case. (however I will also list other parts of the 3rd act as a weakness ).


    Weaknesses

    Timeline. As much as some have said, the film was a return to form after the lows of X3 and Wolverine Origins. The movie started the timeline mess of the entire series, a downward spiral path that the series will never recover from. Which is ironic because the opening scene of first class is one of the best scenes in the series, since it is an extension from the opening scene of X-Men 1.


    3rd Act Battle. I did not like the final mini battle between the new xmen team and the hellfire club I felt it was just put there because comic films are just meant to have some sort of fight in the last act, (generic) also the fight was not necessary. Xavier could have put the hellfire gang to sleep.

    However, the 3rd act is extremely saved by the final showdown between Magneto , Shaw and Cold war soldiers.

    Emma Frost. I never cared much about January Jones performance, I know some fans complained about her. However I just hated how Emma was around in the 60s and as a one done deal.

    Darwin’s death.

    The Mystique Problem: I don’t know if I should call this a true negative but rewatching the film , I see Jennifer through that blue makeup now.

    She also lacked the grace of Rebecca Romjin, however I am not sure Rebecca would have acted how mystique was characterised in the film. I will take into account, this was mystique when she was young. Nonetheless, I still prefer Rebecca to Jennifer if I take all the movies into consideration.

    please feel free to add more positives and negatives of the film.

    While I really cannot say for a fact that this is the best main X-Men movie, First Class is the best political and social conscious X-Men film and arguably the best of the marvel films in that era ever done to date.

    It is also very essential in the series film history because it was a good but never-to-be-repeated entry again, only Deadpool 1 competes with it.

    X1, X2, DOFP all have the same familiarity and so did The Wolverine/Logan because those directors came back for more than one film. Mathew Vaughn directed only once and possibly made the best in the series.
    Agree with a lot of your points.

    I think First Class was a great 'soft reboot' for the franchise and created a world that was a middle-ground between the 'grounded' feel of the original trilogy and a more comic-booky film. In that sense, it paved the way for the likes of DOFP and even Deadpool.

    I also loved the James Bond vibes to the movie's Cold War plot, and how it was perfectly integrated into the story of the emergence of the mutant race.

    The character work was brilliant of course. McAvoy and Fassbender really sold me on this new take on Charles and Eric. They were different from Stewart and McKellan, yet convinced me that they could grow into those versions over time (as we saw them do over the course of the next few films). I liked Jennifer Lawrence as Mystique...she's meant to be different from the Rebecca Romijin version who's a bit of a remorseless killer and lethal terrorist. DOFP kinda gave us the origin of how Lawrence's Mystique became the Romijin version (killing Trask, being tortured by Stryker), but of course the events of that plot changed the timeline and reshaped her future. Nicolas Hoult as Hank was great too...I felt his whole plot with the cure was a neat foreshadowing of his attitude towards the mutant cure in X3.

    In general, I loved a lot of the 'origin' stuff - the first Cerebro test, the makeshift 'Danger Room', the training, the uniforms, how Charles lost his legs, how Eric got the helmet...unlike most other comic-book franchises, we rarely see 'origin stories' for the X-men so this was great.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    Avengers is not X-Men though, I am sure marvel made up both teams for different reasons. Avengers movies are mostly driven by CGI, action and paint and dry plots.
    Avengers is more Transformers or Godzilla in movies, X-Men is more drama and many other elements like soap opera and social commentary, you have to specifically select some characters you need to focus on for that to work better with movies.
    Keep a pin in that. (You see you've seen any of the Avengers, movies, though? Also, not sure saying something's like a Transformers movie works that well as an insult in a post-Bumblebee world, but whatever.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    Joss whedon worked on both series and he ended up with different results. His astonishing xmen books was very different from Avengers movies. This was already touched upon on the X-MEN 3 last stand thread.
    Comics are a different medium from movies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    Everyone almost agreed that had X3 just focused on the cure storyline, it would have been a great movie. the cure story line was the first volume of astonishing xmen. it does not take a rocket scientist to see how different in tone and story subject was to the avengers films, and X3 cure plot was still sort of dumbed down compared to the books, so imagine if things were different?
    Personally, between the two, I think X3 should've focused on the Phoenix story over the cure one; the former was set up in the previous movie, so it'd make a logical followup (also, seeing how X2 had been about the threat coming from the human side, having the trilogy cap off with another mutant threat would've been an change of pace). Either way, X3's fatal flaw was trying to stuff the cure and Phoenix story into the same film, despite the fact that they had nothing in common and were fighting for screen time, with the Phoenix story losing out and being the one to disappear until needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    The only thing that was common about the Whedon's Avengers and X-Men stuff was the humour and jokes but even Whedon limited it in the astonishing x-men, comparing that to his avengers films that are basically light hearted action-comedy. whereas the cure story line was suited more for hard drama with a much darker tone.
    Comics and movies are different medium and we're not talking about the former here. (Also, being dark and dramatic does not automatically make something better -- compare the worst of the X-Men movies to the best of the Looney Tunes. Heck, Days of Future Past, a time travel story with killer robots, is considered one of the best X-Men movies and it's more character study then social commentary.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    Honestly I wish an Avengers fan like yourself knew more about the marvel characters or IPs from the books than what Kevin Fiege shows you in film. it is baffling to me to mix them up- avengers/xmen. this is a more bizarre mix up than some thinking Spiderman and Ant-Man are one and the same, thereby justifying why their movies are so alike.
    I read Spider-Man, X-23, New Mutants, Runaways, and Hawkeye comics, so, yeah, I know something about some of the characters outside of the movies. However, you're missing the point I'm making. The fact that the MCU Avengers movies have done a better job balancing out their large casts then the Fox X-Men movies generally did is irrelevant to the kinds of stories the franchises have been used to tell. The mechanics of giving everyone something to do in the plot is all in how the characters are incorporated into the story. The Fox series could've done that and still kept a more serious tone. Heck, The New Mutants movie gave their cast more to do then X1 while still being a very serious drama, so it could've been done. Does any of that make any sense?


    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    We will have to see that differently. I see the ''montage'' more as an entry to the clear cut 2nd act of the movie.
    I'm probably doing a bad job of explaining it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    Nah, I think there is less variety , the genre has gotten so over big on itself, 20 years ago with X2, most comic films still felt indie minded. the last time there was a serious comic film was Joker and this is because it felt more as if the movie was made 20 years ago. it's a director-driven stand alone movie.
    Let's see, in recent years, we had DC experimenting with dark and gritty and lighter and softer. We got a Spider-Man cartoon that proved being mature and dramatic can go hand in hand with embracing the inherent silliness that superheroes are (and brought the comic book experience to life on the big screen with a new style of animation). Pixar did an Incredibles sequel that once again used the subject as a metaphor for family life. With X-Men, we've gotten parody, a gritty westen, and a horror movie before the studio closed up shop. The MCU has continued to experiment with genres within the superhero format. There was a R-rated Joker movie and a "what if Superman was evil?" movie. DC's also been doing a lot with direct-to-video animation, if that's you're thing. That's plenty of variety.

    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    There was, but as this is not the thread for that, only thing I will say is I expect the snyder's cut to feel more like X2 than Joker/Logan/Deadpool if Snyder is right on why he gave this movie R. X2 was originally already rated r but quickly changed because fox did not want to risk anything
    Can't say I think it needed to be R, but then, I don't know what was modified.

    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    the movie's story and score have to meet and find a middle ground. the score is meant to sometimes capture a moment, so often with emotions, this is why I pointed out how he uses drastic different scores to express some of magneto's personality. But you can also find this in other films like Sunset Bolivard or Prisoner of Askaban
    Or Inside Out.
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
    X-23: "I know there are people who disapprove... Guys on the Internet mainly."
    (All-New Wolverine #4)

  15. #15
    Mighty Member Castle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Keep a pin in that. (You see you've seen any of the Avengers, movies, though? Also, not sure saying something's like a Transformers movie works that well as an insult in a post-Bumblebee world, but whatever.)

    .
    Not to stray too of topic but i have seen all the avengers film. it is not an insult, to compare it to transformers. transformers movies are fun action stuff like avengers. Michael bay does what he does best. there is not much difference in style , meaning and tone. Both films serve the same kind of movie purpose. Why is it an insult, transformers even has artistic edge over avengers in the sense that it is a Michael bay movie, he at least directed it, which is more than i can say for avengers where those films are more window dressed by a studio.

    Comics are a different medium from movies.
    yeah, they are, but the movies are to even a small extent adapting their comics.
    Personally, between the two, I think X3 should've focused on the Phoenix story over the cure one; the former was set up in the previous movie, so it'd make a logical followup (also, seeing how X2 had been about the threat coming from the human side, having the trilogy cap off with another mutant threat would've been an change of pace). Either way, X3's fatal flaw was trying to stuff the cure and Phoenix story into the same film, despite the fact that they had nothing in common and were fighting for screen time, with the Phoenix story losing out and being the one to disappear until needed.
    X3 should have focused on the cure a lot more, it would have fitted the big narrative story of X1 and X2. In X2 , one of the main arc of the movies was that xavier failed to cure jason, but his father would not listen when xavier told him mutation was never a disease and he could never cure his son.

    Bringing that to X3 on even a bigger scale would have been better. the cure plot would have fitted the entire trilogy arc, also help the series sign out as a much grounded comic film trilogy versus Phoenix that leans more fantasy,

    I'm probably doing a bad job of explaining it.
    sure

    Let's see, in recent years, we had DC experimenting with dark and gritty and lighter and softer. We got a Spider-Man cartoon that proved being mature and dramatic can go hand in hand with embracing the inherent silliness that superheroes are (and brought the comic book experience to life on the big screen with a new style of animation). Pixar did an Incredibles sequel that once again used the subject as a metaphor for family life. With X-Men, we've gotten parody, a gritty westen, and a horror movie before the studio closed up shop. The MCU has continued to experiment with genres within the superhero format. There was a R-rated Joker movie and a "what if Superman was evil?" movie. DC's also been doing a lot with direct-to-video animation, if that's you're thing. That's plenty of variety.
    DC only went softer because of falsehood backlash. they have reached rock bottom now with wonder woman 2, all trying to be light. when DC experiment it is not even about dark or light, it is more about hiring different directors and writers. DC has no formula. Maarvel does and forumla is the opposite of experimenting.

    You keep saying avengers balance things, the truth is they don't really do, maybe I am missing the point because in my head, when I see balance I still see it more as story driven drama and less action. avengers balancing is just people been on green screen many of the times and the cast chasing some big dense plot of saving the big universe

    Wandavision has been good for avengers because fans , they have said the show finally focused on two characters that never did much in the movies. it's strange they only noticed it now. Also, I don't see where mcu has experimented with formats. As I said with DC, Experiments is only possible when you make director-driven films and not have all your films follow the same laws, if you call it that. marvel supposedly experiments , so why have they just nuked more r rated xmen films???

    I agree that DC has variety, DC is the only one with variety , Spiderman is diverse but that has more to do with his games and the recent movie animation .

    Can't say I think it needed to be R, but then, I don't know what was modified.
    I understand that because you are saying this from an MCU fan pov, However had X2 been released in 2021, it would have been R. Did you know the comic version of the book has the N word? which if a director wanted can get you r more than the f word that first class already had?

    After logan and deadpool. Fox would have had more balls to do a main x-movie R. X2 would have been perfect since the movie was already struggling to keep its pg 13 rating. even first class may have fared better as R.
    Last edited by Castle; 03-06-2021 at 03:32 AM.

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