X-Men: First Class (2011) Rewatch and Thoughts.

[numberthirty]

...



LOL. I have. I just think some could not handle it. Since you made this claim that Beast is only a big monster fighter and the scientist part of beast has no big meaning on his character. I think you need to see the clip.



It will be a top 3 moment of the film, and not because it showed one of the darkest parts of humanity , but most of all. it was a heartbreaking a failed scientific experiment.

Again...

Making a statement about "The Comics..."

...


In the comics, we X-Fans read , Hank is mostly seen as one of the smartest, gentlest characters, who only likes to fight when he has no choice. he is an accomplished scientist above everything and a doctor first not some big dumb beast.

...

Only to attempt to prove something with a clip from a film?

Not really objective.

Never mind that anyone would have very little trouble finding discussion of the Hank who is actually in the comics where folks completely disagree the above assessment of what is in the comics when it comes to who Hank actually is.

[numberthirty]

Nope. never even did any of that. This was a thread about xmen first class, you and some others dragged mcu into it and i told you first class is not a standard mcu movie. i think if you want a slightly similar film in the mcu but very toned down. try captain America first avenger 2011. also sort of a period peiece movie set mostly in world war 2 but world war 2 is used as back dropped only.

I have always been objective.

...

Trying to assert that Mystique is referencing something that will not even exist for another five years?

That is the exact opposite of objective.

It is a connection made on what someone seems to want to believe is there even though the facts say it is an impossibility.

[Castle]

Again...

Making a statement about "The Comics..."

In the comics beast is not a big dumb blue monster. that is not what defines him.

Again this are the issue of falsehoods. they contradict all the time. Kesley Grammer can be easily ranked number 1 as the best portrayal of any comic book character from page to screen, if that is true, it will facutally contradict what you are saying about Beast from the comics.

You can disagree with the truth but the truth will not change and the truth is beast is not a dumb blue monster only who only shows up to fight. Clips are just one part of the proof. I can use the source material.

https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Henry_McCoy_(Earth-616)

If you want to sum up beast character best in the comics in one sentence. this one scene is the best to do it.



You see all the emotions from Beast when he looks at that child because he was once that child. however he is also a scientist and he can see the ramification of the cure and the war it will cause.

Honesty at this point, I just see your reply to me more as trying to troll me and straw grasping. I am bored as this is no longer a real conversation to me.

[numberthirty]

In the comics beast is not a big dumb blue monster. that is not what defines him.

...

Put simply...

...


In the comics, we X-Fans read , Hank is mostly seen as one of

- the smartest, gentlest characters,

who only likes to fight when he has no choice. he is an accomplished scientist above everything and a doctor first not some big dumb beast.

...

The idea that Hank is even remotely the most gentle(and, honestly intelligent too...) is not there in the discussions of the actual comics in the "X..." sub-forum.

If anything?

It is the exact opposite of that.

Attempting to prove that he is gentle with a clip that is not from a comic book?

It proves nothing about what is actually happening in the comics.

[Castle]

Another thing again I will point about this movie that I liked, because yeah it was fun but still heavy.



Speaking of Vaughn's Craftsmanship, this is a fine example he is one of best comic book directors. this is so like a Kick Ass or Kingman Secret Service scene.

First Class took two major ''OMG'' moments and wrapped it up in one scene that has now become iconic.

1. Hugh Jackman famous cameo

2. First Class drops the F bomb....fans in 2021? Could have been R rated.


However I think I liked this scene the most because it showed an xmen movie can be done without wolverine in lead. but Singer came back in DOFP and brought his wolverine love back.

A Vaughn directed sequel may have not done that.

[CosmiComic]

Castle, I feel your behavior is more trolling than anyone else here

[Castle]

Actual objective criticism?

It would involve pointing out the reality that there is no way that this is the case...



If the events of X-Men: First Class take place in 1962 while the James Brown album Say It Loud - I'm Black And I'm Proud will not even be recorded until fall 1967 through fall 1968.

Never mind that the album would not be available to the public until early 1969.

this is real? I have to really explain this. sure.

First Class came out in 2011 set in 1962 XCU fiction , it's a fictional movie that used past metaphors from the 60s decade. Since mutant and proud is a metaphor for black and proud, the time events ,especially when one is pure fiction and the other is real does not matter.

Now, if this was Blackklansman that was set in 1950s but used a 1967 James Brown song. that will matter since Blackkllansman is not fiction or supposed to be a metaphor.

Blackklansman was set in 1970 just to point out.


James Brown: Say it loud, I am black and Proud

Mystique : And Beast remember, Mutant and Proud.


Not to mention mystique has been sarcastic about it since the first act of the movie. it is only in the last act she actually means it. so even the term, got devlopment.

Again, good writing from Vaughn even when using social allegories from a song.

[Soubhagya]

Phew, Finally some good criticism than me dragged into some other MCU POV criticism. boring.

6 years ago I would have said it was blasphemy to put first class as no 2. but now I don't have any issues with that. everything you said i mostly agree with, maybe except Shaw, I don't think Shaw went all that generic compared to what we have now with comic book villains, because he had a very cool and calm character and he had multiple agendas. I think one of the big strengths the film had, I see clearer now maybe above DOFP was the film characters had their own agenda with vague differences.

Also I dont know what to make of Shaw sadistic charming personality, this is the stuff of good villains, the opening scene where he tortures child magneto, he laugh as he kills magneto mum's point black and gives him money for that, it was one of the most cynical things a villain has ever done.


it's almost like Joker, the only thing is Joker is crazy, Shaw is mostly still of sound mind, which gave the movie another extra layer of darkness. you don't see in other films.

One of the reoccurring themes of xmen is about children been forced to grow up fast. We see this when child angel tries to shave his wings in X3 and there is blood everywhere with big knives or also in this first class where raven transform into an adult woman to steal food from Xavier's house before she turns into her blue and Xavier realises she is just a child, or even rogue kissing a boy in X1 as a teen, then realising she is a mutant and has to run away from home.

But Magneto in that nazi camp been abused by Shaw is the worst case example of just how brutal the X-Men universe can be even to children and the fact that it as the first scene of the movie. it said a lot about what was to come because by DOFP Killer Sentinel machines had started slaughtering all kinds of children (mutants kids and human kids that carry the x-gene and will have mutant kids in the future


The realization all of this, was just ....let me just say that there was always a reason xmen stories always got to me far more than fluff entertainment.

That's why i said he was a good villain. Nowadays people get bored by villains who simply want to destroy the world or conquer it, etc. There has to be more. From a cursory glance from your posts it seems like you don't like MCU, but they had a great villain in Thanos. He wasn't just trying to destroy everything. There was a method to his madness. In his mind, killing half of living creatures would mean survival of the rest. He killed off Gamora but seemed to genuinely care for her. These kinds of layers add a lot.

Shaw was like Hela in my opinion. Nothing extra. A run of the mill villain who wants to rule/destroy the world. But they were really bolstered by a performance which was just fun to watch. In Shaw's case it was to destroy the world so that mutants would rule. Not unlike Magneto at times. But Magneto has a tragic backstory which feeds into his motivations. You have to give it to Bacon. He wasn't on screen a lot of time. But he was just the right amount of ham. Not too hammy that its cringey. Neither so serious that he's lifeless.


I agree with the last part too. Children being forced to grow up fast. Wasn't it something related to Harry Potter too? I appreciate those themes but i am more into the colorful adventurous stuff myself. Time travel, intergalactic wars, etc. I am more of a Superman guy myself, thus i am after weird and fantastic. Which X-Men provides a lot too. For a while Days of Future Past was my favorite. Looking back i think that is still a great movie. But First Class had a unique style which makes it more memorable to me.

[Jokerz79]

Put simply...



The idea that Hank is even remotely the most gentle(and, honestly intelligent too...) is not there in the discussions of the actual comics in the "X..." sub-forum.

If anything?

It is the exact opposite of that.

Attempting to prove that he is gentle with a clip that is not from a comic book?

It proves nothing about what is actually happening in the comics.

Beast is one of my favorite X-Men and First Class is my favorite X-Men movie. But you're right they get him wrong hell I love X-Men the Animated Series but it got him wrong and it started the trend that continued with the following animated shows, the films, and into the comics with Grant Morrison's run. Beast is smart and a genius but they concentrate almost solely on that aspect of his character ignoring the other 2 aspects of Beast 1 he is a fighter who even enjoys it at times and two he's a big goofball at times too. Read X-Men books from the 60's or X-Factor and him and Iceman were the comic relief of the team giving levity to situations when compared to the more serious Scott, Jean, and Warren. In Avengers him and Wonder Man were Booster Gold and Blue Beetle before Booster Gold and Blue Beetle, I mean seriously Blue Scientist Character and Hollywood wannabe pal around on the Superhero A-Team.

So yeah I agree no medium outside of comics has gotten Beast right yet.

[CosmiComic]

this is real? I have to really explain this. sure.

First Class came out in 2011 set in 1962 XCU fiction , it's a fictional movie that used past metaphors from the 60s decade. Since mutant and proud is a metaphor for black and proud, the time events ,especially when one is pure fiction and the other is real does not matter.

Now, if this was Blackklansman that was set in 1950s but used a 1967 James Brown song. that will matter since Blackkllansman is not fiction or supposed to be a metaphor.

Blackklansman was set in 1970 just to point out.


James Brown: Say it loud, I am black and Proud

Mystique : And Beast remember, Mutant and Proud.


Not to mention mystique has been sarcastic about it since the first act of the movie. it is only in the last act she actually means it. so even the term, got devlopment.

Again, good writing from Vaughn even when using social allegories from a song.

I feel like you're missing the point

[Castle]

Beast is one of my favorite X-Men and First Class is my favorite X-Men movie. But you're right they get him wrong hell I love X-Men the Animated Series but it got him wrong and it started the trend that continued with the following animated shows, the films, and into the comics with Grant Morrison's run.

Jokerz please remember that you said, Beast was the best part of X3 that you want him in the MCU. Here is the evidence
https://community.cbr.com/showthread...ter)/page5that you want Kesley Grammer to be in the MCU.

This is your own quote.

This news makes wish Disney bought Fox years ago maybe then Kelsey Grammer could had another shot at Beast he was the only good thing from that movie.

This is you again, saying you love beast in X3.
https://community.cbr.com/showthread...h-and-Thoughts

Hated the Phoenix aspect of the story due to it being botched IMO, but enjoyed the cure storyline. Also loved Beast in it while deeply flawed I still enjoy the film more than Dark Phoenix and I haven't seen New Mutants yet to judge. Yes I like Origins more than Last Stand or Dark Phoenix honestly until they go to 3 mile island I found Origins an enjoyable Wolverine movie.

You said this, and that alone contradicts everything you said here .That they have never gotten him right.. It's interesting, I am learning a lot about the dynamic of all the marvel films and the future. I think it is now clear what is going on. MCU will likely ignore the hard science aspect of Beast, so some fans are now trying to rewrite that Beast is not what he has been in the movies or cartoon. However I do notice they are providing no prove of that.

First, let's look at the other parts you said that was not the case. in first class, Beast had 2 fight main scenes which is quite fair for a 2.5 hour movie with many more characters. this is not comparable to the comics of 5000 comic issues.
In X3 Beast goofed around a lot with Wolverine, infact I think the Beast and Wolverine moments in X3 was better than Jean and Wolverine. even in DOFP Beast first scene was goofing around with wolverine...wolverine calls him a late bloomer.


Beast has never been a comic relief, he has a sense of humor but he is not a comic relief, Beast is one of the most serious xmen members . I will ask when was Beast a main comic relief what run can you name the comic run? none exist, however I can tell you that Beast in Astonishing X-Men, New X-men, Xtreme X-men, Uncanny X-Men, X-Men (2nd series). Beast is not a comic relief or a big fighter first those comic runs proves it.

To even just nail this issue. The last time Beast got a main big arc to himself. it was Endangered Species, that was a beast's centric run and maybe his most important run in his history, is not an action adventure story were Beast had fights. Beast went on sabbatical science research, the story ends with a dramatic talk with Wanda at a quiet cafe. no fighting no goofing around.

So I have named 6 main long comic run to prove that Beast is not first and foremost a fighter or a comic relief.

Further, Cyclops explained it in Astonishing X-Men 1. He said the reason why he chose a team of Himself, Emma, Wolverine, Kitty and Beast was because he saw where they could help most in the team. Cyclops was the leader, Beast was the doctor and best teacher to kids, Kitty Pryde had defensive Power sets to Wolverine that had aggressive power sets.

sigh, I hope this thread gets less MCU POV critique of first class, I think it is becoming too funny to see people contradict themselves. I did not think me saying something as harmless as Kesley Grammer can contend for the best screen to page comic book portrayal could cause some to try and rewrite Beast History this much that , they even forget they have already praised Beast live action in the past..

[CosmiComic]

What does MCU POV mean?

[Castle]

What does MCU POV mean?

when a person uses a...I love MCU movies mostly only to critique other comic films that are not MCU movies. And you know what I am use to it when i make threads about a fox or sony or dc film, i don't even mind the MCU POV, I understand passionate fans that are always subjective....but i think this is just now going too far, because people are now taking the smartest character in xmen that has been shown in the comics, movies and cartoon and trying to argue he is just a dumb blue monster and his Science part is not the big thing.

I am guessing because of the way Hulk, Thor and Star Lord has been portrayed, MCU Beast will be like them, While it will greatly contradict his comics, however i dont even care or mind. that will be MCU Beast and I can live with that. I just wont see him as a great Beast to the more wisdom intellectual heavy science Kesley Grammer or insecure desperate scientist Beast from First Class who wants a cure but that is what it is.

I hope this thread will be more less about that.

Soubhagya

That's why i said he was a good villain. Nowadays people get bored by villains who simply want to destroy the world or conquer it, etc. There has to be more. From a cursory glance from your posts it seems like you don't like MCU, but they had a great villain in Thanos. He wasn't just trying to destroy everything. There was a method to his madness. In his mind, killing half of living creatures would mean survival of the rest. He killed off Gamora but seemed to genuinely care for her. These kinds of layers add a lot.

I think Thanos is the Apocalypse of xmen but he has his own kind of agenda. however he has never been my favourite xmen villain. let me just say I am not into the big universal big bad guys.

I agree with the last part too. Children being forced to grow up fast. Wasn't it something related to Harry Potter too? I appreciate those themes but i am more into the colorful adventurous stuff myself. Time travel, intergalactic wars, etc. I am more of a Superman guy myself, thus i am after weird and fantastic. Which X-Men provides a lot too. For a while Days of Future Past was my favorite. Looking back i think that is still a great movie. But First Class had a unique style which makes it more memorable to me.

Agreed about the children's part , Xavier says in X1, Most of the children and runaways or in hiding of have been put away. First Class addresses this further with the X-Kids, Havok and Mystique

I also think you are correct about first class been very unique, DOFP already had a familiarity with X1 and X2. First Class was very different from them in style. it's a true use of unique one-time true craftsmanship in a franchise like xmen that was a disjointed mess of a series from an artistic POV and fans POV.

Also about harry potter I liked that call back too. I hope I dont go too off topic but this scene from half blood prince is so xmen, when Dumbledore recruits Tom Riddle to go to Hogwarts or the Xavier institute of higher institute.



Dumbledore promising him it will be a safe haven for ''special kids like him''. This is also what Xavier said to the X-Kids in First Class.
then there is also the issue of the racism in harry potter too. with purebloods, half bloods and muggleborns, they even have the same kind of race suprematist villains. the friends of humanity in X-men and the Death Eaters from harry potter are all inspired by real The KKK

[CosmiComic]

MCU Tony Stark, Bruce Banner, Hank Pym, Peter Parker and Shuri are all geniuses. I doubt Hank McCoy will be different

[Jokerz79]

Jokerz please remember that you said, Beast was the best part of X3 that you want him in the MCU. Here is the evidence
https://community.cbr.com/showthread...ter)/page5that you want Kesley Grammer to be in the MCU.

This is your own quote.



This is you again, saying you love beast in X3.
https://community.cbr.com/showthread...h-and-Thoughts



You said this, and that alone contradicts everything you said here .That they have never gotten him right.. It's interesting, I am learning a lot about the dynamic of all the marvel films and the future. I think it is now clear what is going on. MCU will likely ignore the hard science aspect of Beast, so some fans are now trying to rewrite that Beast is not what he has been in the movies or cartoon. However I do notice they are providing no prove of that.

First, let's look at the other parts you said that was not the case. in first class, Beast had 2 fight main scenes which is quite fair for a 2.5 hour movie with many more characters. this is not comparable to the comics of 5000 comic issues.
In X3 Beast goofed around a lot with Wolverine, infact I think the Beast and Wolverine moments in X3 was better than Jean and Wolverine. even in DOFP Beast first scene was goofing around with wolverine...wolverine calls him a late bloomer.


Beast has never been a comic relief, he has a sense of humor but he is not a comic relief, Beast is one of the most serious xmen members . I will ask when was Beast a main comic relief what run can you name the comic run? none exist, however I can tell you that Beast in Astonishing X-Men, New X-men, Xtreme X-men, Uncanny X-Men, X-Men (2nd series). Beast is not a comic relief or a big fighter first those comic runs proves it.

To even just nail this issue. The last time Beast got a main big arc to himself. it was Endangered Species, that was a beast's centric run and maybe his most important run in his history, is not an action adventure story were Beast had fights. Beast went on sabbatical science research, the story ends with a dramatic talk with Wanda at a quiet cafe. no fighting no goofing around.

So I have named 6 main long comic run to prove that Beast is not first and foremost a fighter or a comic relief.

Further, Cyclops explained it in Astonishing X-Men 1. He said the reason why he chose a team of Himself, Emma, Wolverine, Kitty and Beast was because he saw where they could help most in the team. Cyclops was the leader, Beast was the doctor and best teacher to kids, Kitty Pryde had defensive Power sets to Wolverine that had aggressive power sets.

sigh, I hope this thread gets less MCU POV critique of first class, I think it is becoming too funny to see people contradict themselves. I did not think me saying something as harmless as Kesley Grammer can contend for the best screen to page comic book portrayal could cause some to try and rewrite Beast History this much that , they even forget they have already praised Beast live action in the past..

Michael Keaton is my favorite live action Batman and I'm thrilled to see him again in the upcoming Flash film, but he is not a perfect translation of the character from the comics just like Kelsey Grammar's Beast.

Almost all those runs of comics you listed as your evidence as to Beast's character is post Morrison's run which was in 2000 you're ignoring Beast 1st 36 years of history and concentrating on the last 21 years to fit your narrative which is your usual gameplay cherry picking.