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  1. #61
    Mighty Member Castle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
    Sometimes if a gay person is not out, they will pretend to be attracted to the opposite sex. They will date, sometimes marry and have kids in the closet. Bobby, while shown dating, has never had a serious long term relationship. Speculation about Bobby has gone on for decades. I remember reading debates on the old AOL marvel boards about Bobby. When he came out in the comics, it was one of the least shocking revelations ever made.
    .
    To the people who were shocked. they never saw the movie. X2. There was no speculation about Bobby.
    Having an actual diverse line of characters is better than having a line of metaphorically diverse characters.
    The comic book industry has not had the best record of telling stories about diverse characters. I personally enjoy adaptations that update to a modern setting and diversity over trying to be a carbon copy of stories written decades ago for a entirely different audience demographic

    The comic book or let me just say most industries at this point don't care anymore about deeper meaningful stories or just great well written characters. to make it worse, the industry are the most laziest with diverse characters because they just think...oh let just have them there but not give them any depth or any trait that will make them rise to be even better than the establish white leads.

    See I dont think it was a coincidence that black panther had bad cgi, or killmonger and black panther never came of as Malcom X and MLK compared to xavier and magneto that did mostly about 70% of the time because I am one of those fans who don't think magneto is 100% malcom x.

    And don't make me start again with star wars sequel trilogy, even Rey, a white character but female is just a terrible character. No one knows what or who she is.

    Also what if I told you I was POC myself and dont like this lazy stuf they did with POCs. However since this is the internet. You may not believe me or could?

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    To the people who were shocked. they never saw the movie. X2. There was no speculation about Bobby.



    The comic book or let me just say most industries at this point don't care anymore about deeper meaningful stories or just great well written characters. to make it worse, the industry are the most laziest with diverse characters because they just think...oh let just have them there but not give them any depth or any trait that will make them rise to be even better than the establish white leads.

    See I dont think it was a coincidence that black panther had bad cgi, or killmonger and black panther never came of as Malcom X and MLK compared to xavier and magneto that did mostly about 70% of the time because I am one of those fans who don't think magneto is 100% malcom x.

    And don't make me start again with star wars sequel trilogy, even Rey, a white character but female is just a terrible character. No one knows what or who she is.

    Also what if I told you I was POC myself and dont like this lazy stuf they did with POCs. However since this is the internet. You may not believe me or could?
    Malcolm X and Magneto aren't exact matches. In fact I don't think Malcolm X ever advocated violent war like Magneto does.

    I don't really get the rest of your point. The movie and comic book industries are trying to change to be more inclusive and give more depth to female and PoC characters. But they can't do that if metaphors with white male leads are "enough"

  3. #63
    Mighty Member Castle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    I don't get how you can think X-Men's metaphor is somehow deeper than the real thing? Yes, Black Panther didn't go too deep into racism, but the entire world of Wakanda is a reaction to colonialism. The movie criticized isolationism and promoted global unity. It's more real than Mystique shape-shifting into other races.

    Maybe they should have made the movie about colonism and isolation as the main main main story but you see, to do that, is to take too much away from a disney comic book movie, But you see X-Men First Class made the cold war between USSA/USSR and the civil rights of the 60s as the main story of the film and the movie came out fine.

    The movie criticized isolationism and promoted global unity. It's more real than Mystique shape-shifting into other races.

    See , you are proving my point about why it is just not enough when it is fictional characters. is Mystique shape-shifting any more real than Black Panther wearing a magical panther suit that makes him jump on cars and trains and not get hurt? Also global unity means prejudice is defeated. the genius of xmen social commentary is that it is an ongoing struggle

    Also Mystique has blue skin, she will get it as bad as those with black skin if this fictional characters became real life people.


    Also, if I'm not mistaken, Magneto only was shown to be Jewish later (X-Fans correct me on that if I'm wrong). But the mutants were created initially because Stan Lee was supposedly tired of thinking of origin stories, and added the mutant racism oppression thing later. Guys like Black Panther, Falcon and Miss Marvel (Carol) were dealing with prejudice long before that, even if it was awkward and hamfisted in the Silver Age/Bronze age way Also, if I'm not mistaken, Magneto only was shown to be Jewish later (X-Fans correct me on that if I'm wrong). But the mutants were created initially because Stan Lee was supposedly tired of thinking of origin stories, and added the mutant racism oppression thing later. Guys like Black Panther, Falcon and Miss Marvel (Carol) were dealing with prejudice long before that, even if it was awkward and hamfisted in the Silver Age/Bronze age way
    what I know is that marvel put this way way more on xmen, that also have black and other POC characters like Storm and Bishop and they ran with it in a genius way for over 70 years. marvel has yet to recapture that with any other series and that is marvel's own fault. I think things are even worse now that they are owned by disney.
    Last edited by Castle; 03-05-2021 at 01:12 PM.

  4. #64
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    Maybe they should have made the movie about colonism and isolation as the main main main story but you see, to do that, is to take too much away from a disney comic book movie, But you see X-Men First Class made the cold war between USSA/USSR and the civil rights of the 60s as the main story of the film and the movie came out fine.



    Any more real than Black Panther wearing a magical panther suit that makes him jump on cars and trains and not get hurt?
    You have never watched Black Panther and it's obvious.

    Also Mystique has blue skin, she will get it as bad as those with black skin if this fictional characters became real life people.
    One of them can actually STOP being blue... or could turn into your best friend, or even the President and walk right up and stab you you without anybody knowing any different. Big difference.

  5. #65
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    Maybe they should have made the movie about colonism and isolation as the main main main story but you see, to do that, is to take too much away from a disney comic book movie, But you see X-Men First Class made the cold war between USSA/USSR and the civil rights of the 60s as the main story of the film and the movie came out fine.[/QUOTE]

    That's not the point. the point was the difference between the isolated Wakandans and the oppressed African-Americans

    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    Any more real than Black Panther wearing a magical panther suit that makes him jump on cars and trains and not get hurt?
    It's a superhero movie. Get it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    Also global unity means prejudice is defeated. by the time Logan came about. the mutants have been wiped out. the genius of xmen social commentary is that it is an ongoing struggle
    Meaning what to current racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    See , you are proving my point about why it is just not enough when it is fictional characters.

    Also Mystique has blue skin, she will get it as bad as those with black skin if this fictional characters became real life people.
    Are you really going there?

    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    what I know is that marvel put this more way way more on xmen, that also have black and other POC characters like Storm and Bishop and they ran with and they ran with it in a genius way for over 70 years. marvel has yet to recapture that with any other series and that is marvel's own fault. I think things are even worse now that they are owned by disney.
    What are you talking about? Black Panther did more in one movie under Disney with social commentary than the entire Fox-Men series. I know more about MCU Monica Rambeau now they I ever knew about Fox Storm or Bishop combined. Do you have something against Disney?
    Last edited by Mik; 03-05-2021 at 12:59 PM.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    No they did not appropriate it, not even close. magneto is already jeiwsh.
    Magneto was not already jewish. Magneto debuted in 1963 as a generic villain. He spent more time trying to kill the X-Men and seeking power than working to protect mutants. He fought not only the X-Men, but the Avengers, Defenders, and Inhumans also. It wasn't until 1981 almost 20 years after he debuted that he was revealed to be jewish. This was done because Chris Claremont wanted to make him a sympathetic character and anti hero. Claremont not only retconned his heritage, but his entire backstory. These retcons included a friendship with Xavier prior to the. beginning of the series, his childhood in Nazi Germany, and a motivation to protect mutant kind. He never actually tried to protect another mutant or even seem sad a mutant was hurt until 1982 in the graphic novel god Loves, Man Kills.

    Black Panther was fighting racists and the KKK long before 1981.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    Maybe they should have made the movie about colonism and isolation as the main main main story but you see, to do that, is to take too much away from a disney comic book movie, But you see X-Men First Class made the cold war between USSA/USSR and the civil rights of the 60s as the main story of the film and the movie came out fine.
    That's not the point. the point was the difference between the isolated Wakandans and the oppressed African-Americans



    It's a superhero movie. Get it?



    Meaning what to current racism?



    Are you really going there?



    What are you talking about? Black Panther did more in one movie under Disney with social commentary than the entire Fox-Men series. I know more about MCU Monica Rambeau now they I ever knew about Fox Storm or Bishop combined. Do you have something against Disney?[/QUOTE]

    Castle's dream is to make superhero movies the way he wants them to be. But, even if he did, he'd still get criticisms leveled at him just like he's doing with Disney/Marvel. Can't please everyone. Me personally, I love where the MCU is going on Phase 4 and beyond. So, I'm enjoying the ride.

  8. #68
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    I didn't realize that. The MCU has its ups and downs but I like the general direction aside from a few things.

  9. #69
    Extraordinary Member Zero Hunter's Avatar
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    This article is just stupid. No way in hell Marvel is going to change one of the biggest brand names in comics. If you think they will you have no idea how business works. To change a household name for the handful of extremists who hate the word "man" in any context would be so beyond stupid if they did do it someone should be fired for it.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero Hunter View Post
    This article is just stupid. No way in hell Marvel is going to change one of the biggest brand names in comics. If you think they will you have no idea how business works. To change a household name for the handful of extremists who hate the word "man" in any context would be so beyond stupid if they did do it someone should be fired for it.
    What extremists?

  11. #71
    Mighty Member Castle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    You have never watched Black Panther and it's obvious.

    I did.
    One of them can actually STOP being blue... or could turn into your best friend, or even the President and walk right up and stab you you without anybody knowing any different. Big difference.
    it's not a difference. mystique is in a worse place. One of them is rich, and a king and does not need to even hide, if they were real characters. black panther can still stay in Africa to flee western prejudice.

    mystique has no where safe, in the real world, she will be a poor blue skin woman running and hiding. if she is not enslaved like black Americans, she will be experimented on or gased because at the end she is still not in the Aryan race. Black Panther has it way better than her. Remember this scene from xmen 1?

    Mystique: You know people like you were the reason I was afraid to go to school as a child. What could be more prejudice than that


    Black panther in the movie never faced any prejudice in the film based on his race. All what this is showing is you don't need the re-title it to x-people or the mutants or make xmen into black panther for xmen to catch up with the times. xmen is already ahead of the times and the comics are better than the movies, i am only using past movies clips because I cannot scan comic books pages but yeah, the comics did it so much better
    Last edited by Castle; 03-05-2021 at 01:42 PM.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    I did.


    it's not a difference. mystique is in a worse place. One of them is rich, and a king and does not need to even hide, if they were real characters. black panther can still stay in Africa to flee western prejudice.

    mystique has no where safe, in the real world, she will be a poor blue skin woman running and hiding. if she is not enslaved like black Americans, she will be experimented on or gased because at the end she is still not in the Aryan race. Black Panther has it way better than her.

    Remember this scene from xmen 1?

    Mystique: You know people like you were the reason I was afraid to go to school as a child. What could be more prejudice than than that



    Black panther in the movie never faced any prejudice in the film based on his race. All what this is showing is you don't need the re-title it to x-people or the mutants or make xmen into black panther for xmen to catch up with the times. xmen is already ahead of the times
    Blue people aren't real, and that oppression isn't comparable to what black people face everyday.

    You're missing the point about Black Panther. They're wealthy because of vibranium they didn't share with the rest of the world but that also caused problems for them and for everyone else.

    This is why the metaphor doesn't work for some. Because comments like this latch onto pretend racism, while complaining about real racism being confronted in movies.

  13. #73
    Silver Sentinel BeastieRunner's Avatar
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    X-Force
    X-Factor
    X-Club
    Generation X
    New Mutants
    etc.

    I mean ... they own a lot of alternative names already.

    I agree with the previous poster that said pull a Nolan and call it something like Batman Begins, like All-New X-Men or even a whole new name for the team like New Mutants, Generation X, etc.

    Academy X, House of X, Age of X ... just keep an X and I am happy. Can even have people call the mutants, the X.

    It really is not that hard or a big deal, IMHO.

    If this is even true ...
    Last edited by BeastieRunner; 03-05-2021 at 02:20 PM.
    "Always listen to the crazy scientist with a weird van or armful of blueprints and diagrams." -- Vibranium

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    Blue people aren't real, and that oppression isn't comparable to what black people face everyday.

    You're missing the point about Black Panther. They're wealthy because of vibranium they didn't share with the rest of the world but that also caused problems for them and for everyone else.

    This is why the metaphor doesn't work for some. Because comments like this latch onto pretend racism, while complaining about real racism being confronted in movies.
    Black Panther addressed the themes of European colonialism, the African Diaspora, US involvement in overthrowing foreign governments, female empowerment, the role of extremism in social change, and human trafficking. These are all real world issues that are handled in a complex manner that does not give easy answers.

    BUT the main character did not turn to camera and say "I was discriminated against by racists, AND THAT'S BAD!"

    So none of that counts according to Castle.

  15. #75
    Astonishing Member babyblob's Avatar
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    I keep seeing talk in this thread and others about the Xmen metaphor.

    Why do we need a metaphor any more? Maybe ion the 60s when you could not just do a comic about racism or gay rights and had to use metaphors. But now and the last few years not only can you do a story about racism, gay/trans rights with actual POC, gay and Trans heroes and characters but many people would love to see such a story. So why do we in 2021 need mostly white straight Xmen to create that metaphor?
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