MCU X-Men to be called The Mutants? Gender neutral name

[CosmiComic]

This discussion really should end here.

Metaphors were necessary in the past because a lot of people simply couldn't deal with seeing minorities and LGBT people in their fiction.

That simply isn't the case anymore so there's no need for the metaphors. Tell the stories that need to be told with actual minorities and actual minority creators that have experienced discrimination.

I agree. I want to see more PoC and other marginalized groups tell their stories without a comforting filter.

[Username taken]

I agree. I want to see more PoC and other marginalized groups tell their stories without a comforting filter.

Exactly. The human experience is a complicated one and its ultimately better for people of color to tell stories about their experience without it being "watered down".

Black Panther did stuff that no superhero movie had done before, it dealt with the issues that are relevant to Africans and African descendants around the world. "Racism" isn't the only issue that black people deal with, there's a metric ton of other issues that a lot of folks who aren't black might not understand. From the issues of colonialsm to afro-futurism to the divide between Africans at home and those in the diaspora to pillaging of African kingdoms (so many people don't realize that the artwork in the museum that Killmonger attacked in the movie have truly not been returned to the countries of origin), to the effect of inner city violence- no superhero movie had even begun to address the issues that BP did.

And that's the essence of having minorities tell their own stories. You won't get that goofy **** speech that Havok gave in Uncanny Avengers. It was obvious that Remender as a white man didn't understand how damaging it is to suggest that POC should downplay their identities to just be "people". Remender's heart was very much in the right place but the execution was wrong

[CosmiComic]

Exactly. The human experience is a complicated one and its ultimately better for people of color to tell stories about their experience without it being "watered down".

Black Panther did stuff that no superhero movie had done before, it dealt with the issues that are relevant to Africans and African descendants around the world. "Racism" isn't the only issue that black people deal with, there's a metric ton of other issues that a lot of folks who aren't black might not understand. From the issues of colonialsm to afro-futurism to the divide between Africans at home and those in the diaspora to pillaging of African kingdoms (so many people don't realize that the artwork in the museum that Killmonger attacked in the movie have truly not been returned to the countries of origin), to the effect of inner city violence- no superhero movie had even begun to address the issues that BP did.

And that's the essence of having minorities tell their own stories. You won't get that goofy **** speech that Havok gave in Uncanny Avengers. It was obvious that Remender as a white man didn't understand how damaging it is to suggest that POC should downplay their identities to just be "people". Remender's heart was very much in the right place but the execution was wrong

Yeah, I think the intentions are good but the execution is poor. The worst was Kitty Pryde using a racial slur in the 80s, although that was a while ago so I'm not necessarily going to hold it against them now.

But you're right about Black Panther. Captain Marvel tried to touch on feminism, but I though it could have been more. But at least it spoke the real issues, and I expect FaWS to do so as well, and maybe Ms. Marvel. The point is, these are real issues, not just metaphors to make the majority feel ok. This should be the main thing going forward, and ironically I feel the Avengers side of Marvel is actually doing better in that regard (not perfect, just better) because they don't have a metaphor and pushed for actual diversity during the last 20 years.

[Castle]

Exactly. The human experience is a complicated one and its ultimately better for people of color to tell stories about their experience without it being "watered down".

Black Panther did stuff that no superhero movie had done before, it dealt with the issues that are relevant to Africans and African descendants around the world. "Racism" isn't the only issue that black people deal with, there's a metric ton of other issues that a lot of folks who aren't black might not understand. From the issues of colonialsm to afro-futurism to the divide between Africans at home and those in the diaspora to pillaging of African kingdoms (so many people don't realize that the artwork in the museum that Killmonger attacked in the movie have truly not been returned to the countries of origin), to the effect of inner city violence- no superhero movie had even begun to address the issues that BP did.

And that's the essence of having minorities tell their own stories. You won't get that goofy **** speech that Havok gave in Uncanny Avengers. It was obvious that Remender as a white man didn't understand how damaging it is to suggest that POC should downplay their identities to just be "people". Remender's heart was very much in the right place but the execution was wrong

Black Panther is about 7 pages back

Racism" isn't the only issue that black people deal with, there's a metric ton of other issues that a lot of folks who aren't black might not understand. From the issues of colonialsm to afro-futurism to the divide between Africans at home and those in the diaspora to pillaging of African kingdoms (so many people don't realize that the artwork in the museum that Killmonger attacked in the movie have truly not been returned to the countries of origin),

This was not addressed in the movie. there is no major scene or plot line that was majorly covered in this movie, I think the first scene told a summary of an African heritage , this is a summary, start things in a nazi camps and make that into a real plot for the rest of the film. that is a deep social commentary.

so many people don't realize that the artwork in the museum that Killmonger attacked in the movie have truly not been returned to the countries of origin), to the effect of inner city violence- no superhero movie had even begun to address the issues that BP did.

I think what is meant to be said is that no movie with an all black cast in a comic film has ever tried, to address some social themes. to say no superhero movie has done that is just not the case.

when you think about inner city violence, batman begins is 10 steps ahead of black panther and this was the first act of begins. by the second act batman has gone through the inner city prisons, you see the real rottenness of Gotham and the crimes



Since this is more xmen related, if black panther even had even addressed more of the deeper themes xmen did, I would have loved it but black panther was greatly held back, what batman begins or a good xmen movie does is give you the dress of the wear of the themes, black panther you only see the dress from a window.

if black panther was an xmen movie, I think it will still be better than avengers/gotg as an xmen movie, however like the first thor film in 2011, it will trail behind a film like xmen first class also released in 2011.


There is too much.... want to be external commentary of black panther that was not addressed internally in the movie and this is where the movies lack depth with social commentary. this is also why you dont see anyone actually quoting the screenplay of black panther, because none of this themes are a major plot line in the film.

[Triniking1234]

I think people are forgetting Black Panther's plot most focused to T'Challa's family antics, personal troubles for taking over from T'Chaka and Wakanda's internal politics.

There's some throw away lines at the beginning with T'Chaka and Killmonger's father but all the movie does is show that some African Americans live in low income communities which yeah, I already know since I'm from one, Disney.

[Castle]

Yeah, I think the intentions are good but the execution is poor. The worst was Kitty Pryde using a racial slur in the 80s, although that was a while ago so I'm not necessarily going to hold it against them now.

In content I dont think it was a poor execution, that is why you never explained why you called it a poor execution.

the human that referred to kitty as a mutie, in a dehumanising manner, he was African American, which was why kitty asked him how would you feel if the n word was said to you?

it was a good execution because, the human was black and only another groups of people who have been marginalised against can understand to some extent the same pain they feel.

I think the execution could have been bad if the human was white. but again that would be in content

this is also seen in a story like blackklnasman. the two characters bonded a lot more than others because one was black and the other was jew.


To give another example, in first class were Xavier reveals Beast was a mutant, and his peers were shocked, beast replies by saying. you didn't ask so i didn't tell. which was a good but memorable social commentary of gays serving in the military where the usa had rules of dont ask, dont tell. this was not even a metaphor

[Username taken]

I think people are forgetting Black Panther's plot most focused to T'Challa's family antics, personal troubles for taking over from T'Chaka and Wakanda's internal politics.

There's some throw away lines at the beginning with T'Chaka and Killmonger's father but all the movie does is show that some African Americans live in low income communities which yeah, I already know since I'm from one, Disney.

That's a very surface level assessment.

And even on the surface level, Killmonger's story is a parallel to how a lot of black men have lost their parents to inner city violence. Coogler made a point of this by starting off the movie in Oakland.

[Odd Rödney]

Exactly. The human experience is a complicated one and its ultimately better for people of color to tell stories about their experience without it being "watered down".

Black Panther did stuff that no superhero movie had done before, it dealt with the issues that are relevant to Africans and African descendants around the world. "Racism" isn't the only issue that black people deal with, there's a metric ton of other issues that a lot of folks who aren't black might not understand. From the issues of colonialsm to afro-futurism to the divide between Africans at home and those in the diaspora to pillaging of African kingdoms (so many people don't realize that the artwork in the museum that Killmonger attacked in the movie have truly not been returned to the countries of origin), to the effect of inner city violence- no superhero movie had even begun to address the issues that BP did.

And that's the essence of having minorities tell their own stories. You won't get that goofy **** speech that Havok gave in Uncanny Avengers. It was obvious that Remender as a white man didn't understand how damaging it is to suggest that POC should downplay their identities to just be "people". Remender's heart was very much in the right place but the execution was wrong

Well said!!

[Username taken]

Black Panther is about 7 pages back



This was not addressed in the movie. there is no major scene or plot line that was majorly covered in this movie, I think the first scene told a summary of an African heritage , this is a summary, start things in a nazi camps and make that into a real plot for the rest of the film. that is a deep social commentary.



I think what is meant to be said is that no movie with an all black cast in a comic film has ever tried, to address some social themes. to say no superhero movie has done that is just not the case.

when you think about inner city violence, batman begins is 10 steps ahead of black panther and this was the first act of begins. by the second act batman has gone through the inner city prisons, you see the real rottenness of Gotham and the crimes



Since this is more xmen related, if black panther even had even addressed more of the deeper themes xmen did, I would have loved it but black panther was greatly held back, what batman begins or a good xmen movie does is give you the dress of the wear of the themes, black panther you only see the dress from a window.

if black panther was an xmen movie, I think it will still be better than avengers/gotg as an xmen movie, however like the first thor film in 2011, it will trail behind a film like xmen first class also released in 2011.


There is too much.... want to be external commentary of black panther that was not addressed internally in the movie and this is where the movies lack depth with social commentary. this is also why you dont see anyone actually quoting the screenplay of black panther, because none of this themes are a major plot line in the film.

No offence, I'm not going into this discussion because you've clearly not watched BP.

And if you did, you clearly don't understand what was presented to you in the film. But that's not a problem because you're obviously not a minority and don't have any personal point of reference regarding the issues the movie addressed. ADOS and African immigrants is actually a thing but most non-black people don't get that.

Coogler is a nuanced film maker and Marvel/Disney trust their audience enough to watch a movie and get the subtext around certain stuff. Now, some folks on the internet don't (and that's fine) but I personally don't need stuff spelt out to me, we should be smart enough to realize what film makers are going for.

[Username taken]

Well said!!

Thanks!

10char.

[Triniking1234]

That's a very surface level assessment.

And even on the surface level, Killmonger's story is a parallel to how a lot of black men have lost their parents to inner city violence. Coogler made a point of this by starting off the movie in Oakland.

I guess someone would only get that if they know about the situation in Oakland (which I had to look up. Thanks for the homework). Without the context, it's mostly just a man choosing his country over the life of his brother. Also N'Jobu's actions are highly exaggerated just so T'Chaka can kill him.

[Castle]

I think people are forgetting Black Panther's plot most focused to T'Challa's family antics, personal troubles for taking over from T'Chaka and Wakanda's internal politics.

There's some throw away lines at the beginning with T'Chaka and Killmonger's father but all the movie does is show that some African Americans live in low income communities which yeah, I already know since I'm from one, Disney.

At that was the problem with the film, the internal politics was like a third part of the movie that was barely heavily relevant and for a comic film, it's barely there. the 3rd act of first class, the x-characters went up against ussa and usa cold war soldiers, who still wanted to take them out and magneto killing a nazi from world war 2. the third act of the dark knight was between batman, a now failed police cop and a once upon a time criminal lawyer gone rogue.

this two films at that moment tackled what their social commentary started it, once was crime and brutality , the other was the effects of Wars, the fear of racism.

the third act of black pantbher was about was about Tchilla vs killmonger with some robot dinosaur fighting each other trying to stay on a throne? see the difference? Thor 1 has dine this with Thor and Loki.

The third act of black panther is one of the major problems of mcu movies, they always have to POV comic bookie it with this big cgi thing, their xmen has to avoid that,

[Username taken]

I guess someone would only get that if they know about the situation in Oakland (which I had to look up. Thanks for the homework). Without the context, it's mostly just a man choosing his country over the life of his brother. Also N'Jobu's actions are highly exaggerated just so T'Chaka can kill him.

N'Jobu's actions were exaggerated. That I can agree with. Like, the man killed his own brother which is pretty nasty.

The Oakland thing is something Coogler spoke about when he made Fruitvale Station. When I saw BP start in Oakland and see Killmonger's dad get killed there, I understood what Coogler was going for.

Coogler put in alot of stuff in BP. Even stuff the colors of the Wakandan team outfits wore wasn't just for aethistic reasons. The team's colors represented "pan-African colors", it just shows how much they subtle stuff they put into the movie.

[Castle]

No offence, I'm not going into this discussion because you've clearly not watched BP.

And if you did, you clearly don't understand what was presented to you in the film. But that's not a problem because you're obviously not a minority and don't have any personal point of reference regarding the issues the movie addressed. ADOS and African immigrants is actually a thing but most non-black people don't get that.

I am Watching black panther right now as I am typing.

Also I am a minority, I am black.

And the fact that I am black and I see a film like first class or tdk tackling social issues better than black panther troubles me but at the same time, I know it is bigger than that since what it reveals is the limitation of mcu story telling.

You keep on saying black panther addressed this stuff deeply but where exactly are the plot scenes in the film?

Coogler is a nuanced film maker and Marvel/Disney trust their audience enough to watch a movie and get the subtext around certain stuff. Now, some folks on the internet don't (and that's fine) but I personally don't need stuff spelt out to me, we should be smart enough to realize what film makers are going for.

I think Coogler's movie Creed is far better than what you are saying.

Also the audience would not get any subtext because they were not even heavily done in the film. a brief animated short story on slavery less than 10 seconds in the film is not great enough.

When people say they dont need stuff spelt out for them , for me, I see that more as a film makers doing their best job in trying to tone what should not be toned down.

[Username taken]

I am Watciung black panther right now as I am typing.

Ok.

Also I am a minority, I am black.

And the fact that I am black and I see a film like first class or tdk tackling social issues better than black panther troubles me but at the same time, I know it is bigger than that since what it reveals is the limitation of mcu story telling.

Are you sure?

You keep on saying black panther addressed this stuff deeply but where exactly are the plot scenes in the film?

You said you're black, watch the movie and study it carefully.

I think Coogler's movie Creed is far better than what you are saying.

I'm not talking about Creed.

Also the audience would not get any subtext because they were not even heavily done in the film.

You've already answered your own question.

When people say they dont need stuff spelt out for them , for me, I see that more as a film makers doing their best job in trying to tone what should not be toned down.

Not really.