Wonder Woman's Archnemesis

[mathew101281]

Cheetah's threat comes from her personal relationship with Diana. She can hurt Diana personally in ways only a friend can hurt someone.

Circe is Hippolyta's nemesis. Diana is just collateral damage.

Ares should be the big overarching threat. He's a powerful unknowable force, known more for the damage he causes ( both physically and emotionally) than his personality.

[WonderScott]

Yeah I agree Barbara should have the cockiness of Lex but backed up with tons of anger. When Rucka laid the fountains to have her go on a god killing spree at the end of his run, I was secretly hoping to just see just loose it and go full Kratos and just kill Gods left. Cheetah already killed Poseidon and Aphrodite, the latter of which should seriously upset Ares when he finds out.

Part of me wishes she killed Aphrodite without the help of the God killer sword and just her own claws, like they could adopted the whole "only a god (or demigod) can kill a god" from the WW movies. The godkiller sword aspect was ok, but she should have at least found it herself.

Also Orlando kind of stepped on Barbara's god-killing plot and I don't know what her motives are anymore...
She even left of fairly good terms with Diana, and so did Circe for that matter in JL Dark, so I don't know were their plots are heading.

I always thought a potential long term plot for her would be that she would eventually convince herself that Diana would someday become like the Greek gods, all terrible and selfish and stuff (even though we know Diana would never become like that) and want to kill her before that could happen. It's crazy, but Cheetah has never been known to be mentally stable. Even Diana thought she was the god of war in (the maybe cannon) Vol.4 run.

That was a decent subplot by Rucka that I wish we could have seen play out. (That happens to a lot of Rucka storylines and plots and subplots.)

I’m in agreement about the Godkiller sword... it’s an okay idea but I’d rather see Barbara herself be the weapon.

[WonderScott]

In some ways, I like moseying away from the idea of Diana needing a singular arch-nemesis. (And this is despite my love of doppelgängers and their stories.)

I’d rather see a wide swath of her enemies get developed into superb, powerful villains that reflect different aspects, characteristics, and shades of Diana.

Superwoman, Devastation, Genocide, and Grail play off the doppelgänger role and of those four I find Superwoman and Grail the most interesting in terms of what could be done with their characters as arch adversaries over time.

To those two, I’d add Cheetah, Circe, and Ares, similarly to what other people have discussed. They’re certainly a triumvirate of Diana’s greatest foes.

To them, I’d certainly add Doctor Psycho, Doctor Cyber, Giganta, Doctor Poison, Queen Clea, Veronica Cale, and Eviless, knowing that all of them desperately need additional character-building and panel time to cement their arch-worthiness.

I could also go for Osira, Zara, Gudra, Hypnota, Snowman, Angle Man, the Duke of Deception, First Born, Medusa, Queen of Fables, and other villains showing up a lot more and trying to let it be known that they’re Diana’s greatest enemy.

What I’m really saying is I want a greater tapestry of evil and relationships between foes being woven around Diana and the Wonder characters. At least a much greater one than what we currently experience.

[I'm a Fish]

In some ways, I like moseying away from the idea of Diana needing a singular arch-nemesis. (And this is despite my love of doppelgängers and their stories.)

Yeah, I can understand that because it can seemly put the character in a box, especially if the hero doesn't have a well known villain gallery on par with Batman and Spider-man.

I’d rather see a wide swath of her enemies get developed into superb, powerful villains that reflect different aspects, characteristics, and shades of Diana.

Superwoman, Devastation, Genocide, and Grail play off the doppelgängers role and of those four I find Superwoman and Grail the most interesting in terms of what could be done with their characters as arch adversaries over time.

To those two, I’d add Cheetah, Circe, and Ares, similarly to what other people have discussed. They’re certainly a triumvirate of Diana’s greatest foes.

To them, I’d certainly add Doctor Psycho, Doctor Cyber, Giganta, Doctor Poison, Queen Clea, Veronica Cale, and Eviless, knowing that all of them desperately need additional character-building and panel time to cement their arch-worthiness.

I could also go for Osira, Zara, Gudra, Hypnota, Snowman, Angle Man, the Duke of Deception, First Born, Medusa, Queen of Fables, and other villains showing up a lot more and trying to let it be known that they’re Diana’s greatest enemy.

What I’m really saying is I want a greater tapestry of evil and relationships between foes being woven around Diana and the Wonder characters. At least a much greater one than what we currently experience.

Yes, I do not believe the arch-nemesis should be more or less developed than the rest of the rogue's gallery. The phrase "a hero is only as good as their villain" of course refers to the enjoyment you get out of the story through the character dynamic between the hero and villain. And the more well developed villains Wonder Woman has to square off against, the more developed Wonder Woman becomes as a character.

The more the developed Wonder Woman villain's there are, the better stories Wonder Woman will have.

[Mistah K88]

In his Justice League run, Dwayne McDuffie probably did the most with trying to elevate Cheetah, alongside Joker and Lex, as the leaders of the Injustice League - and that wasn’t really even a lot of on panel time. Gail Simone also worked Cheetah in as a leader in the Society and a instigator in the creation of Genocide, IIRC. Again, that wasn’t a ton of on panel time either.

I’m pretty devoted to Barbara Minerva being the true threat and the Cheetah being an addictive tool to stand amongst the most powerful supervillains and challenge the most powerful superheroes.

Barbara and Lex need to stand toe-to-toe in their respective fields; mythology, anthropology, and archeology in the DCU and technology and super science in the DCU.

Until she’s shown as holding her own with (and sometimes besting) the other Big Bads in the DCU, she’s always going to be seen as just a limited, supporting player when the villains get together.

Barbara should, in some ways, threaten Circe and Ares. She’s a mortal who doesn’t know her place and doesn’t let her mortality stand in the way of acquiring power and challenging the gods themselves. She can be an epic villain (and not a pawn), if creators can see her that way.

Yeah, Cheetah would find all sorts of magical artifacts to help her in her fights. Just like Lex dons a suit to give himself an edge, Cheetah would do her research and prepare herself when going after a foe.

[WonderScott]

Yeah, Cheetah would find all sorts of magical artifacts to help her in her fights. Just like Lex dons a suit to give himself an edge, Cheetah would do her research and prepare herself when going after a foe.

I’m still waiting for a writer to show Barbara as brilliant, cunning, and ingenious. The banter (done right) between the two of them alone could fill an entire issue.

[John Venus]

I often felt like Cheetah is her personal archenemy. We have Circe who is Diana's and Amazons

Yeah, this is the best way to put it. You mention Ares and Circe and all the Amazons would know what's up. They are an existential threat them and the Amazons would be fighting them regardless of whether Diana exists or not, whereas as Cheetah's beef with WW is more personal. Plus Cheetah isn't public domain and is purely a Diana villain.

[SiegePerilous02]

Yeah, this is the best way to put it. You mention Ares and Circe and all the Amazons would know what's up. They are an existential threat them and the Amazons would be fighting them regardless of whether Diana exists or not, whereas as Cheetah's beef with WW is more personal. Plus Cheetah isn't public domain and is purely a Diana villain.

Yeah, Cheetah belongs to Wonder Woman in a unique way the other two aren't ever going to manage.

Circe's far more associated with the Odyssey of course, and is the star of her own novel that has nothing to do with Wonder Woman. A version of Ares is also heavily associated with Xena. Marvel Thor has Loki, but at least they are on equal footing as both being based on Norse Gods with connections in the myth (even if it isn't the same).

[marhawkman]

In some ways, I like moseying away from the idea of Diana needing a singular arch-nemesis. (And this is despite my love of doppelgängers and their stories.)

I’d rather see a wide swath of her enemies get developed into superb, powerful villains that reflect different aspects, characteristics, and shades of Diana.

Superwoman, Devastation, Genocide, and Grail play off the doppelgänger role and of those four I find Superwoman and Grail the most interesting in terms of what could be done with their characters as arch adversaries over time.

To those two, I’d add Cheetah, Circe, and Ares, similarly to what other people have discussed. They’re certainly a triumvirate of Diana’s greatest foes.

To them, I’d certainly add Doctor Psycho, Doctor Cyber, Giganta, Doctor Poison, Queen Clea, Veronica Cale, and Eviless, knowing that all of them desperately need additional character-building and panel time to cement their arch-worthiness.

I could also go for Osira, Zara, Gudra, Hypnota, Snowman, Angle Man, the Duke of Deception, First Born, Medusa, Queen of Fables, and other villains showing up a lot more and trying to let it be known that they’re Diana’s greatest enemy.

What I’m really saying is I want a greater tapestry of evil and relationships between foes being woven around Diana and the Wonder characters. At least a much greater one than what we currently experience.

Yeah having variety makes a rogue's gallery interesting. All of those are interesting in their own way.

Pondering this I realized that there's really only two good ways to have a big rogues gallery that you can actually use. A: some Legion of Doom like organization where villains work together, or b: villain of the week self contained stories. Each has it's own strengths and weaknesses.

[Koriand'r]

Yeah having variety makes a rogue's gallery interesting. All of those are interesting in their own way.

Pondering this I realized that there's really only two good ways to have a big rogues gallery that you can actually use. A: some Legion of Doom like organization where villains work together, or b: villain of the week self contained stories. Each has it's own strengths and weaknesses.

You just described Villainy Incorporated and Godwatch. It was a cool idea making Veronica Cale the hub and Phobus and Deimos, Dr. Cyber, Cheetah, Circe and Team Poison the spokes of the villain wheel during Rebirth.

I agree interaction is key for a big rogues gallery so that there's space to fit multiple characters in a story.

I'd like to see Cale and Circe meet up to discuss their plans for destroying Wonder Woman over drinks, or Circe providing magical upgrades to Giganta, or Angle Man using Dr. Cyber's computer connections to gain intel for a heist, Ares empowering Maxwell Lord as his Duke of Deception, Dr. Psycho murdering Maxell Lord for infringing on his territory, etc.

[SiegePerilous02]

Rucka had Cale say she had expected the "other shoe to drop by now" or something in regards to Circe. Plus Circe needed a bit of her daughter's blood as insurance.

Somebody really needs to do something with that.

[marhawkman]

You just described Villainy Incorporated and Godwatch. It was a cool idea making Veronica Cale the hub and Phobus and Deimos, Dr. Cyber, Cheetah, Circe and Team Poison the spokes of the villain wheel during Rebirth.

I agree interaction is key for a big rogues gallery so that there's space to fit multiple characters in a story.

I'd like to see Cale and Circe meet up to discuss their plans for destroying Wonder Woman over drinks, or Circe providing magical upgrades to Giganta, or Angle Man using Dr. Cyber's computer connections to gain intel for a heist, Ares empowering Maxwell Lord as his Duke of Deception, Dr. Psycho murdering Maxell Lord for infringing on his territory, etc.

Those are good yes. One fight I've wanted to see for quite a while? Grail vs Deva, or Grail vs Circe, IIRC the comics had Grail fight Hercules already. But the reason for these is that Grail's goals are rooted in her Fourth world origin and she has pretty much everyone in Diana's rogues gallery who is rooted in mythology as a natural enemy.

[I'm a Fish]

Rucka had Cale say she had expected the "other shoe to drop by now" or something in regards to Circe. Plus Circe needed a bit of her daughter's blood as insurance.

Somebody really needs to do something with that.

Especially now that Circe is trapped in a painting. She could make Cale help her out of that.

[Koriand'r]

Those are good yes. One fight I've wanted to see for quite a while? Grail vs Deva, or Grail vs Circe, IIRC the comics had Grail fight Hercules already. But the reason for these is that Grail's goals are rooted in her Fourth world origin and she has pretty much everyone in Diana's rogues gallery who is rooted in mythology as a natural enemy.

So true, being old myth I could see a scenario where Circe and the Amazons have to unite against Apokolips. Grail Vs. Devastation has to happen though, that's the fight of the century. They're equally matched and both were created to be evil doppelgangers, but my money is on Deva.

Done well she's more sinister, don't think Orlando did quite right by her last time around but he gets points for using her.

[marhawkman]

So true, being old myth I could see a scenario where Circe and the Amazons have to unite against Apokolips. Grail Vs. Devastation has to happen though, that's the fight of the century. They're equally matched and both were created to be evil doppelgangers, but my money is on Deva.

Done well she's more sinister, don't think Orlando did quite right by her last time around but he gets points for using her.

yeah there's a variety of ways to set it up too and sooo many things that could be tossed in to spice it up.