Wonder Woman's Archnemesis

[Mel Dyer]

That's actually a pretty cool way to think about Pricilla that I haven't though about before. The idea that she is so incapable of believing in herself as an equal to Wonder Woman she had to create a separate personality to compete against her, because deep down she doesn't feel like she's good enough to even take on Wonder Woman.

THIS is what I struggle with, when it comes to WW's super-villains.

I just don't think they're that special, in how or why they are Diana's enemies. Circe, Cheetah, Grail, Cyber - they could really belong to any superhero's rogues gallery, because there's nothing about the threat of them that Wonder Woman seems uniquely suited or driven to challenge. I this way, they're all sort of painfully generic, because writers don't seem to be interested in taking their individual quirks and writing stories around them, in such a way that makes them special to a Wonder Woman story.

Again, ..I think this is because we don't really know the hero, Wonder Woman. We're left to presume that she is super-Oprah, saving Cheetah from low self-esteem, or a sword-n-sandal answer to Green Lantern, patrolling man's World for fantasy-genre threats, like monsters and Krakens. We don't really know what the hell Wonder Woman is doing here, after World War II, ..or what she's supposedly protecting us from.

If you asked me who her archnemesis is, I honestly couldn't tell you, because I haven't read the definitive WW story, in which Diana faces a threat or antagonist that defines her reason for existing. In spite of their potential - Myrina Black as her Magneto, Circe as her Brainiac, Clea as her Kurgan, Cyber as her Doctor Doom, etc - I don't see a story that cinches how or why Diana is uniquely suited to protect us from them ..or stop them.

I think James Tynion's Witching War, in JLD, was a step in the right direction, defining Circe's contempt for humanity and making it justifiable to us. It was a great story, ...but, it wasn't Dark Knight Returns. Does Circe want to conquer all of reality or just Earth - that so she can torture us all for betraying her? Read Witching War, and you can understand why she's always probably going to relapse into seeing us all as cowardly, ungrateful vermin and plotting or eternal torment and degradation, as her 'things'. Tynion makes it make sense to me, but, we need about a cycle of similar stories that have Wonder Woman flying in, even when she's disgusted with us for our bigotry and warmongering, and stopping Circe from giving us the punishment we... (probably, a little bit) deserve? I need a cycle of stories that consistently show Circe pursuing the same goal - torment of mankind, world domination, etc - and Diana, equally consistent in being uniquely suited or driven to stop her, to sell me on Circe being Wonder Woman's Moriarty.

I once said Diana needs a Ras Al Ghul. I think Circe could be her Ras, ..but, I need about a half decade of stories to convince me. I need that half a decade to emotionally and psychologically invest in the idea: Circe is the WW comic's answer to Ras.

I need a cycle of Darkseid Wars, showing Myrina Black - NOT Grail - fanatically pursuing the loving subjugation of Man's World to Amazon rule (hers, specically), to sell me on her being the megalomaniacal villain, whom Diana was born to protect us from ..or destroy! Myrina, and NOT Grail, is the fanatic renegade, who is Magneto to Diana's Professor X, ..but, I need a cycle of stories showing the wild-eyed extremes she will go to, to conquer the world, ..in the name of saving us brutes from ourselves. I think this can happen, with editor and writers committed to using a prolonged enmity with Myrina to define Wonder Woman, ..in the way that the X-Men's prolonged enmity with Magneto has defined their mission and reason for existence...

And the same goes, with the rest of the villains, I mentioned - Clea as her Kurgan, Doctor Cyber as her Doctor Doom, etc. We need stories - stories on top of stories, on top of more stories.

[marhawkman]

I think James Tynion's Witching War, in JLD, was a step in the right direction, defining Circe's contempt for humanity and making it justifiable to us. It was a great story, ...but, it wasn't Dark Knight Returns. Does Circe want to conquer all of reality or just Earth - that so she can torture us all for betraying her? Read Witching War, and you can understand why she's always probably going to relapse into seeing us all as cowardly, ungrateful vermin and plotting or eternal torment and degradation, as her 'things'. Tynion makes it make sense to me, but, we need about a cycle of similar stories that have Wonder Woman flying in, even when she's disgusted with us for our bigotry and warmongering, and stopping Circe from giving us the punishment we... (probably, a little bit) deserve? I need a cycle of stories that consistently show Circe pursuing the same goal - torment of mankind, world domination, etc - and Diana, equally consistent in being uniquely suited or driven to stop her, to sell me on Circe being Wonder Woman's Moriarty.

I once said Diana needs a Ras Al Ghul. I think Circe could be her Ras, ..but, I need about a half decade of stories to convince me. I need that half a decade to emotionally and psychologically invest in the idea: Circe is the WW comic's answer to Ras.

this kind agets at why I think developing a supporting cast for Circe is a good idea. Circe is far too often fighting alone. It doesn't really make sense some of the time. go-tier magic user, thousands of years old and the ruler of her own island kingdom? she should have an army!

[Mel Dyer]

this kind agets at why I think developing a supporting cast for Circe is a good idea. Circe is far too often fighting alone. It doesn't really make sense some of the time. go-tier magic user, thousands of years old and the ruler of her own island kingdom? she should have an army!

I am in total agreement, Mar', that Circe needs a supporting cast of her own AND a series of 'Young Circe' stories that show her as a child-sorceress and healer, celebrated as a golden child hero - later, her struggle, under persecution and exile, by the Olympians. What about her time on the planet Sorca? Her time, studying under demonic entities in other realms, ..as their lovers

[John Venus]

Re: Cheetah

I think that ultimately trying to combine the various Cheetah's does a disservice to all of them because they are each meant to serve a different purpose.

Pricilla: woman with such a huge inferiority complex that she can't see her own value so she tries to tear down WW out of pure jealousy.

Deborah Domaine: Friend of Wonder Woman whom the latter failed, who was fighting for a worthy cause but was tricked and manipulated into becoming something awful by other people.

Barbara: cunning, ruthless, manipulative woman who will tear down anyone to get to the top spot.

[Amazon Swordsman]

Cheetah is the narrative villain. She has appeared or has been referenced with Wonder Woman in even the most obscure of places, and her mantle has been somewhat “handed down” to a few other people, so there’s a history there. If you want to make Cheetah work, or stand out as her arch nemesis, you gotta clarify the message. What is Cheetah’s raison d’être in opposition to Diana? What is it that Diana has or does exceptionally well that Cheetah despises? What are the things Diana values and cherishes that make Cheetah the antithesis of? Those are questions I’d ask myself.

[marhawkman]

I am in total agreement, Mar', that Circe needs a supporting cast of her own AND a series of 'Young Circe' stories that show her as a child-sorceress and healer, celebrated as a golden child hero - later, her struggle, under persecution and exile, by the Olympians. What about her time on the planet Sorca? Her time, studying under demonic entities in other realms, ..as their lovers

That would start in what? 200 BC? 'Cause yeah her time as princess of Colchis was a long time ago. This is the woman who forced Odysseus to serve her after all. In the old myths there's a lot more on Aeaea than just Circe.

It has always bugged me that nobody has really put effort into establishing the Furies as individuals. There are some rare instances (Ostrander's Suicide Squad in particular), but the Furies are so damn awesome that it sucks that so few writers use them. And when they do, they're either written inconsistently (Stompa being dumb just because she's a big gal, for example) or used interchangeably. The Furies mini-series that came out a couple years ago was the biggest missed opportunity for this.

Or Guilotina being bloodthirsty just because she stabs people. I mean, it makes sense, all the Furies are pretty mean, and it's really just the specific flavor of being mean. But yeah, they rarely go beyond that. Which kinda sucks because the basic character designs are really cool.

[Mel Dyer]

That would start in what? 200 BC? 'Cause yeah her time as princess of Colchis was a long time ago. This is the woman who forced Odysseus to serve her after all. In the old myths there's a lot more on Aeaea than just Circe.
Or Guilotina being bloodthirsty just because she stabs people. I mean, it makes sense, all the Furies are pretty mean, and it's really just the specific flavor of being mean. But yeah, they rarely go beyond that. Which kinda sucks because the basic character designs are really cool.

The DC Comics Circe is myth-inspired or, as we say today, ..meta-mythical. Her story features elements of the classical Circe myth, but needn't be slavishly loyal to regurgitating them in the WW comic.

The Circe of the DCU, I think, needs a Renfield or a Desaad, ..a trusted right-hand and caretaker, who is loyal only to her and deadly to the rest of us. Perhaps, she would do better, with a Lothar sort, a powerful enforcer, with a sympathy for Wonder Woman. Where's her Miss Teschmacher...her Chuma?

I think the Wonderverse needs a Mongo for Diana to play in. Could that be Sorca or Aeaea?

Suppose Viro (from the Golden Age Wonder Boy stories) was one of the worlds that Circe encountered, in her cosmic travels - Rucka's Who-ish Circe, whose Aeaea is a singularly contained ship-dimension, ..like Doctor Who's TARDIS*. What if her actions on Viro resulted in its destruction and its sole survivor, a boy, with magical powers similar to Wonder Woman's, ..coming to Earth and joining the Wonders? This is just an example of how a supporting character's background could work, as a segue or portent to building or expanding Circe's backstory.

Following James Tynion's lead in JLD, Circe's travels through the astral plane opens the door to stories about magical worlds - astral planets - in the WW comic. Why should Wonder Woman stories be limited to Earth, Apolkolips and the well-known planets in the DCU, when her creator, sent her to whimsical worlds, ..scattered across the dream realms and of the imagination? Let her carry the stars and the golden eagle into astral and magical worlds, and tear down the evil empires, there, too, ..rallying the beings in those worlds to fight for their freedom! Who will be there waiting to destroy Diana, when she leaps into these worlds? What perils...what battles will she find on these strange worlds, that will define what it means to be Wonder Woman?

This is the explorative, creative journey that must be undertaken, if we're ever to find Diana's archenemy. As I see it, it is a journey that William Moulton Marston didn't get to finish. Frankly, I don't see it happening, today, in the pages of the WW comic.

Let's see her carry the eagle and stars into dark, weird places, where they mean nothing, ..and make them mean something. Let's see Wonder Woman be a real Wonder Woman again and find, in her wild adventures, an archnemesis, who truly threatens what is dearest to her freedom-loving, Amazon heart! Is that Circe? Atomia? Myrina Black? Clea?

*TARDIS stands for 'Time And Relative Dimension In Space'.

[marhawkman]

The DC Comics Circe is myth-inspired or, as we say today, ..meta-mythical. Her story features elements of the classical Circe myth, but needn't be slavishly loyal to regurgitating them in the WW comic.

The Circe of the DCU, I think, needs a Renfield or a Desaad, ..a trusted right-hand and caretaker, who is loyal only to her and deadly to the rest of us. Perhaps, she would do better, with a Lothar sort, a powerful enforcer, with a sympathy for Wonder Woman. Where's her Miss Teschmacher...her Chuma?

I think the Wonderverse needs a Mongo for Diana to play in. Could that be Sorca or Aeaea?

Suppose Viro (from the Golden Age Wonder Boy stories) was one of the worlds that Circe encountered, in her cosmic travels - Rucka's Who-ish Circe, whose Aeaea is a singularly contained ship-dimension, ..like Doctor Who's TARDIS*. What if her actions on Viro resulted in its destruction and its sole survivor, a boy, with magical powers similar to Wonder Woman's, ..coming to Earth and joining the Wonders? This is just an example of how a supporting character's background could work, as a segue or portent to building or expanding Circe's backstory.

This is what I'd use Cassiphone for. In the myths she's Circe's daughter and feircly loyal to her mother.

[Mel Dyer]

Truthfully, if Cheetah was reimagined, as a time-travelling conqueror, like Kang, who scientifically or magically turned herself into a were-cheetah to survive the rigors and dangers of time-travel, ..I could get behind that. Maybe, Minerva turns out to be an Amazon from the future (and with THAT name) or that she stole the means for transforming herself into a were-cheetah, from Paradise Island! An origin mixing magic, sci-fi and pulpy, Tomb Raiderish elements - classic WW story for a classic WW archenemy!

Big problem with Cheetah is how unclear it is exactly what she wants, from one story to the next. Is it money? Immortality? Blood-lust? Furthermore, it hasn't been established how what Cheetah wants makes her uniquely suited (like more, than Catwoman or ) ..to be Diana's worst nightmare. I especially find it problematic, with understanding that Diana left the island to save mankind from conquest, by Ares and beings, like him, who threaten peace and freedom, ..that her worst enemy is basically...a furry Freddy Krueger?! I have yet to read the story that sells me on this, such that I fell, after reading, "Now, I get it! Yes! Now, I see why there's this inevitable thing, between Cheetz and Diana! Makes sense, now!"

Not happening, even with a MOVIE! Dead in the water.

As for the tragic, lost friend thing, retconned in by Greg Rucka, ..I just don't care about what went on, before Cheetah became Cheetah. I think that Two-Faceish backstory has run out of gas, because the WW comic doesn't keep a supporting cast around, long enough, for us fans to emotionally invest in any of the characters. How am I supposed to feel about a past friendship, between Wonder Woman and Barbara Minerva, that never gets referenced by Diana or any supporting characters and appears to have had no adverse, long-term effects on Diana or any of the...?

Well, there are no other characters, right? Is Etta Candy still black? I'm pretty sure that I saw a Sensational Wonder Woman or one of those Agent Of Peace things that featured a white Etta, as she was, before the Kelly show tie-ins. Is there a supporting cast, somewhere? Do we know where Wonder Woman lives, anymore--is that Asgard, as of WW #770?

Anyway, ..I think Cheetah is a hard-sell, as an archenemy. A Barbara Minerva, in Cheetah form, stalking the space-time continuum, looking for some opportunity to conquer the world - now, that is something I can see waking Diana up, at night, in cold sweats!

[I'm a Fish]

Rucka had said in a podcast he would like to do a Circe mini-series someday.

So maybe we'll get that at some point.

[Mel Dyer]

Rucka had said in a podcast he would like to do a Circe mini-series someday.

So maybe we'll get that at some point.

I hope it would be based on Circe's JLD origin. Circe should be Diana's Loki!

[Nyssane]

Rucka had said in a podcast he would like to do a Circe mini-series someday.

So maybe we'll get that at some point.

Meh, I'm not a huge fan of Rucka's Circe. I'd much rather see someone else Tynion write one.

Or Guilotina being bloodthirsty just because she stabs people. I mean, it makes sense, all the Furies are pretty mean, and it's really just the specific flavor of being mean. But yeah, they rarely go beyond that. Which kinda sucks because the basic character designs are really cool.

Gilotina's a weird one because in the 90's she defected and became a Superboy character but then reappeared years later with the Furies and no explanation/reference to her former ways. She even became leader of the Furies in that Superman/Batman arc where it makes no sense since she's the youngest and weakest member.

[Gaius]

Rucka had said in a podcast he would like to do a Circe mini-series someday.

So maybe we'll get that at some point.

Hmm, would definitely be interested in that.

[Mel Dyer]

If we ask ourselves, "What is an Amazon?" What do Amazons do, and why? What is their story? What do Amazons symbolize or represent to us? Besides 'woman', what do we think of, when we think of the classical myth of the Amazons? Only then, can we ask ourselves what would the Amazons hate or fear most of all.

These purpose of those questions is to define what Amazons are, and what they aren't. Incidentally, we see the DCU Amazons, champions of peace, love and freedom for ALL mankind, differ from the Amazons of myth, ..who were primarily freedom-fighters and champions of justice for women, who were oppressed by the man-ruled city states of ancient Greece (Thrace, Sparta, Troy, Athens, Thebes, etc). Then, we ask ourselves the same questions about the daughter of these DCU Amazons, ..Wonder Woman? If we're honest, Wonder Woman's natural enemy, the one she was born to fight and protect us from, ..emerges from the colorful mess that is her rogues gallery - but, only if we're honest.

For my money, Ares is not the arch. I don't think the Amazons, classical or DCU, are as dreadful or scornful of war, as of war's courtiers: conquest, greed and the rest. The proof of this is the Amazons' worship of Athena, the just and fair war-maker, who is fully embraced by them. Furthermore, when I ask myself these questions about Wonder Woman, I don't imagine cheetahs or witches costing her much sleep!

I'll play along, because James Tynion IV did such an exceptional job, with his Circe story, ..but, I don't think Wonder Woman fears magic, above all else, either. In the context of his Justice League Dark stories, we can make his Wonder Woman, a champion of magic, being a magical being, herself. Outside of the Tynion stories, when I run through that battery of definitive questions, ..I don't see a witch or magic itself being a natural enemy of Wonder Woman, whose life's mission is the preservation of peace, justice and freedom.

Characters, like Eviless (or Grail), Queen Clea, Superwoman and the Baroness are the most plausible bottom-liners for a natural enmity, with Wonder Woman. They are in the best positions to destroy or take away what Amazons cherish the most - namely, freedom, justice and hope for all of mankind. We can speculate how characters, like Circe, might be tweaked to constitute a natural, organically existential threat to Wonder Woman and what she is fighting for. However, in that tweaking, we betray the 'natural enemy' idea, because a natural, organic enemy doesn't need tweaking or processing.

What do I mean, by tweaking?

Let's say ..Amazons are afraid and hateful of eggs, because they are a childless nation, ..and eggs represent natural procreation and the continuity of life. Therefore, EGG FU must be Wonder Woman's archenemy; of course! This is the kind of tweaking to create narrative context, where none exists, that we see writers and fans indulging to justify an arch-enmity, with Circe or Cheetah. It's something of a hard-sell, when there are other super-villains, who pose a clearer threat to Wonder Woman, ..no salt, no butter...right outta' the box!

Who is the supervillain or (for me) supervillainess, who makes the most sense, as Wonder Woman's archenemy, right outta' the box?! Boing!

That's what needs to happen in the pages of WW. I think Clea is most certainly an antagonist, who springs fully formed and untweaked out of any definitive consideration of Wonder Woman.

[Geraldofrivia]

DC, Warner Bros