Wonder Woman's Archnemesis

[Amazon Swordsman]

Though I enjoy reading these posts, having this discussion 80 years into her publication history is quite tardy to put it mildly.

[I'm a Fish]

Though I enjoy reading these posts, having this discussion 80 years into her publication history is quite tardy to put it mildly.

Ha yeah. I guess you wouldn't find a thread like this a Batman or Superman's forum. Although I'm kind of curious about putting a thread like this in their forums and seeing what would happen.

Maybe the answer wouldn't be as clear cut as we all assume.

[Gaius]

Ha yeah. I guess you wouldn't find a thread like this a Batman or Superman's forum. Although I'm kind of curious about putting a thread like this in their forums and seeing what would happen.

Maybe the answer wouldn't be as clear cut as we all assume.

There's plenty of sick of them but even the fans who don't care for them would have an uphill argument to make Lex and Joker aren't their respective archs.

[marhawkman]

There's plenty of sick of them but even the fans who don't care for them would have an uphill argument to make Lex and Joker aren't their respective archs.

Even that is based more on how often they fight. Lex and Joker are simply the most commonly used.

[Vordan]

Even that is based more on how often they fight. Lex and Joker are simply the most commonly used.

It’s true, but they both also have some phenomenal stories about why they deserve to be the arch.

[Vordan]

Rucka had said in a podcast he would like to do a Circe mini-series someday.

So maybe we'll get that at some point.

Damn I would love that. She was the one major WW Rogue who didn’t get much play in Rucka’s Rebirth run. Him focusing on her would be really cool, would love that as a Black Label series.

If you remember where you heard that I’d love to listen.

[WonderLight789]

Damn I would love that. She was the one major WW Rogue who didn’t get much play in Rucka’s Rebirth run. Him focusing on her would be really cool, would love that as a Black Label series.

If you remember where you heard that I’d love to listen.

Circe would be a great candidate. Maybe Queen Clea with more development. So she can have an archi villain that is her own and not a public domain one. Although the real answer is DC and Warner.

[Mel Dyer]

Circe would be a great candidate. Maybe Queen Clea with more development. So she can have an archi villain that is her own and not a public domain one. Although the real answer is DC and Warner.

Queen Clea, Queen of Fables, Doctor Cyber and Doctor Psycho would be pretty scary to me, even with superhuman powers.

I would like to see Clea developed, as having conquered other nations, before coming to Venturia and Aurania. I'd like to see her retconned, as the First Born's daughter and a wandering conqueror, ..moving from continent to continent, inserting herself into the halls of power and privilege, throughout the history of the world.

I also find it creepy, her being a freakishly tall woman, with weird facial features. I would wake up, screaming, every night, if I had to deal with her, on a regular basis. If she wasn't my archenemy, she'd be way up there, on my list.

I imagine Clea, as that grotesque, whose appetite for power and brutality would be inexhaustible...relentless! She's freakish, in the way that Dick Tracy villains are - not just monstrous, but, freaky-looking in a creepy, circus sideshow way.

[Titan Theo]

hat being said, my questions for this thread are:

1) Why do you think writers have tried to shake Cheetah out of that roll? I never see anyone try to shake Lex Luthor and Joker out of there archnemesis rolls (but to be far I don't read nearly as much Batman and Superman as I do Wonder Woman.)


Symbolically, the Cheetah is indeed the fastest animal, but definitely not the most scariest animal...even dogs can easily intimidate them. They need to seriously revamp her power set to make her more formidable for Diana; she should be much faster, and she should be able to access the energy of all the various cats in the world like Vixen, so the perception of her will change.

2) Do you think if more people read Wonder Woman comics, Cheetah wouldn't be considered Diana's archnemesis?

Devasation is more deadlier and powerful than Cheetah; just replace those damn cheesy gods that gave her the powers.

3) Who do you think should be Diana's archnemisis and why? Circe, Cheetah and Ares are obviously the top contenders, but do you think a lesser known Wonder Woman villain fit that roll more closely?

I think Ares, as an Olympian God, should not be at Diana's level, period, or of any Olympian. However, he should not be allowed to directly interfere with her or all the other gods will be at his behind for sure.

Devastation is like WW with some of MM's hunters powers, plus more. She's far deadlier than Circe and Cheetah.

[WonderLight789]

hat being said, my questions for this thread are:

1) Why do you think writers have tried to shake Cheetah out of that roll? I never see anyone try to shake Lex Luthor and Joker out of there archnemesis rolls (but to be far I don't read nearly as much Batman and Superman as I do Wonder Woman.)


Symbolically, the Cheetah is indeed the fastest animal, but definitely not the most scariest animal...even dogs can easily intimidate them. They need to seriously revamp her power set to make her more formidable for Diana; she should be much faster, and she should be able to access the energy of all the various cats in the world like Vixen, so the perception of her will change.

2) Do you think if more people read Wonder Woman comics, Cheetah wouldn't be considered Diana's archnemesis?

Devasation is more deadlier and powerful than Cheetah; just replace those damn cheesy gods that gave her the powers.

3) Who do you think should be Diana's archnemisis and why? Circe, Cheetah and Ares are obviously the top contenders, but do you think a lesser known Wonder Woman villain fit that roll more closely?

I think Ares, as an Olympian God, should not be at Diana's level, period, or of any Olympian. However, he should not be allowed to directly interfere with her or all the other gods will be at his behind for sure.

Devastation is like WW with some of MM's hunters powers, plus more. She's far deadlier than Circe and Cheetah.

The answer is because the writers decide to treat Chetah like garbage. With the powers of a God, she should be very poweerful and fast. And she is when writen well. But more often than not writers treat her like a jobber. But considering the fact many writers barely treat WW better, i am not surprised about the bad treatment that Cheetah gets.

[John Venus]

It’s true, but they both also have some phenomenal stories about why they deserve to be the arch.

Yeah but I'm also sick of Joker being over used. Superman isn't that bad in that regard but I remember groaning when I heard Zod was in MoS and Lex in BvsS (when am I going to get my cinematic Brainiac DC? When?!).

Maybe we should just embrace the fact that Diana is unique in that her archenemy spot is a three way tie between Cheetah, Circe and Ares and you can make a strong argument for why each of them deserves that spot.

[marhawkman]

Yeah but I'm also sick of Joker being over used. Superman isn't that bad in that regard but I remember groaning when I heard Zod was in MoS and Lex in BvsS (when am I going to get my cinematic Brainiac DC? When?!).

Maybe we should just embrace the fact that Diana is unique in that her archenemy spot is a three way tie between Cheetah, Circe and Ares and you can make a strong argument for why each of them deserves that spot.

This is a very good point. Is it a GOOD thing to have a "one true archenemy"? Seeing joker... yeah I'm tired of seeing him. why isn't he dead yet? I prefer seeing guys like Bane, or Mister Freeze just because they're not so heavily over used.

[Mel Dyer]

I think the arch-nemesis should be special and not just another bloody bank-robber--y'know?

Should be a specific threat to what is most important to the hero, on some personal or cosmic, ..and not just a bad lady. The arch should be doing something that puts her squarely in the path of the hero's mission. These two have to come to blows. Theirs is a fight that must happen. There must be a universal understanding, among fans or the audience, that their enmity is inevitable, and that the consequences will be far-reaching and ultimately will change a status quo. It should be understood by all that they were born for this singular conflict, such that it takes on an almost meta-mythical importance, in the world. The archenemy is the villain, our hero was born to battle and destroy ..or be destroyed by.

We get this impression from all of the great superhero comic arch-enmities. Thor against Loki, Superman against Luthor, Batman against Joker, Spider-Man against Doctor Octopus, Green Lantern against Sinestro and Flash against Grodd--they've all got that inevitable thing, about them. These conflicts must happen, and the combatants were born to them, like stars to Heaven.

Wonder Woman against Cheetah or Doctor Cyber ..or Ares ..or Cale...not feeling the meta-mythical inevitability, here. Not the kind that earns the recognition of being classic.

There are flickers of brilliance on the horizon. While I favor a female archnemesis for Wonder Woman, the First Born, the Kurgan of her rogues gallery, checked all of the other boxes for a natural enemy, ..and I think a revised Queen Clea could be plugged into his role, very well. Ironically, having argued Circe's over-exposure for almost fifteen years, I now find Circe having the most arch-potential, ..considering her new motivation in James Tynion's JLD. I think Myrina Black, the Magneto of the Wonderverse, also has untapped potential, beyond her 'Darkseid War' outing.

I have given up hope that her daughter, Grail - avatar of Anti-life (end of universal free will) - will ever be written properly, because most writers don't understand what the Anti-life Equation is, why Wonder Woman is uniquely motivated to fight it, and haven't historically shown any interest in figuring all of that out. Were any writer so motivated to give her a second look, they would see that she is Diana's perfect natural enemy. Perhaps, using her as a model, they would clone her, in a new character, possessed of ALL of her qualities, ..except being any offspring of Darkseid.

Wonder Woman, uniquely among her heroic comrades, is a champion of love and freedom. Her archenemy must embody, in every way - backstory, powers, etc - the worst imaginable (the WORST) threat to the love and freedom, Diana is sworn to protect. I just don't think WW's editors are committing enough effort to the sort of long-range development, such an antagonist needs to become instantly recognizable, ..as classic.

Classic is the goal. Archenemies must be instantly recognizable, as classic. I am waiting.

[I'm a Fish]

I think the arch-nemesis should be special and not just another bloody bank-robber--y'know?

Should be a specific threat to what is most important to the hero, on some personal or cosmic, ..and not just a bad lady. The arch should be doing something that puts her squarely in the path of the hero's mission. These two have to come to blows. There's is a fight that must happen. There must be a universal understanding, among fans or the audience, that their enmity is inevitable, and that the consequences will be far-reaching and ultimately will change a status quo. It should be understood by all that they were born for this singular conflict, such that it takes on an almost meta-mythical importance, in the world. The archenemy is the villain, our hero was born to battle and destroy ..or be destroyed by.

We get this impression from all of the great superhero comic arch-enmities. Thor against Loki, Superman against Luthor, Batman against Joker, Spider-Man against Doctor Octopus, Green Lantern against Sinestro and Flash against Grodd--they've all got that inevitable thing, about them. These conflicts must happen, and the combatants were born to them, like stars to Heaven.

Wonder Woman against Cheetah or Doctor Cyber ..or Ares ..or Cale...not feeling the meta-mythical inevitability, here.

There are flickers of brilliance on the horizon. While I favor a female archnemesis for Wonder Woman, the First Born, the Kurgan of her rogues gallery, checked all of the other boxes for a natural enemy. Ironically, having argued Circe's over-exposure for almost fifteen years, I now find Circe having the most arch-potential, ..considering her new motivation in James Tynion's JLD. I think Myrina Black, the Magneto of the Wonderverse, also has untapped potential, beyond her 'Darkseid War' outing. Her daughter, Grail, will

Rucka had set up a good motivation for Cheetah in his second run, leaving her wanting to destroy the Greek Gods and Amazons. Does anything scream arch-enemy as much as wanting to destroy the heroes family and culture?

Justice League (2018) and some later Wonder Woman comics had picked up that plot and Cheetah was actually able to kill a couple of gods. The problem is I'm not sure if that is still her motivation, since Orlando's run sort of put that to rest. That plot line for Cheetah could easily be picked up again by future writers, Cheetah doesn't really seem like the type to let go of grudges (she wouldn't be a villain if she was.)

And now with Diana being so involved in the Sphere of the Gods, it would make a lot of sense to have Cheetah want to destroy/control or harness it's power in some way. We'll have to see if that's where her story goes.

[SiegePerilous02]

Sometimes there doesn't have to be a grand thematic motivation behind the feud between a hero and arch nemesis. Sometimes it's just a personal feud after a prolonged history together. The villains were popular and kept getting used.

There arguably isn't any inherent deeper significance with the rivalries between Lex vs. Superman and Joker vs. Batman, they just have histories of hating each other. The latter especially was far better before they doubled down on the misguided "agent of chaos" stuff and now the Joker is a terrible character where he used to be great.