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  1. #61
    Astonishing Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    Isn't the point of these fictional countries xenophobia just the same?

    I think the reason Stan Lee used South Vietnam in the Tony Stark origin is because he was so used to the slurs in the Korean War stories he was churning out, he couldn't give it up and he just wanted another "yellow race" to bash, so he took what was handy at the time. Calling it Sin-Cong doesn't change that--it's still meant to condemn South East Asians as a whole and make them into the devil.

    If you call it Qurac, we still know the point is to drag all Muslim countries through the mud and declare American superiority.

    Vague East European dictatorships are clearly stereotypical portraits of the Eastern Bloc that paint everyone and everything there in grey tones--even if the names are fake.

    Just because they say it's fictional, that doesn't hide their hatred directed at the other.
    I remember reading that stereotypes are common in comics. Authors use them for the readers to enter the narrative quicker. The blonde lady is the good girl. The brunette is the nefarious temptress.
    This week’s cover contest is showing many examples of the sly Asiatic.
    It is certainly embarrasing if, when you grow up, you still think that the world has something to do with comic book universe.

    So, I won’t say it is hate but simplifications for the sake of the story and the pleasure of the readers.
    “Strength is the lot of but a few privileged men; but austere perseverance, harsh and continuous, may be employed by the smallest of us and rarely fails of its purpose, for its silent power grows irresistibly greater with time.” Goethe

  2. #62
    Amazing Member Adam Allen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post

    Isn't the point of these fictional countries xenophobia just the same?

    I think the reason Stan Lee used South Vietnam in the Tony Stark origin is because he was so used to the slurs in the Korean War stories he was churning out, he couldn't give it up and he just wanted another "yellow race" to bash, so he took what was handy at the time. Calling it Sin-Cong doesn't change that--it's still meant to condemn South East Asians as a whole and make them into the devil.

    If you call it Qurac, we still know the point is to drag all Muslim countries through the mud and declare American superiority.

    Vague East European dictatorships are clearly stereotypical portraits of the Eastern Bloc that paint everyone and everything there in grey tones--even if the names are fake.

    Just because they say it's fictional, that doesn't hide their hatred directed at the other.
    Yeah, that is exactly what I was saying. Don't make it a fictional country so you can hate on these other people and say it doesn't count, because it's fictional.
    Be kind to me, or treat me mean
    I'll make the most of it, I'm an extraordinary machine

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Allen View Post
    Well, that's reason to not tie characters/origins to specific real world events/conflicts/circumstances, sure. But you have whole towns being destroyed and what not within the borders of Marvel's fictional US, so I don't really see a reason to not have fictional events/origins or whatever taking place in fictional versions of other countries -- except, granting, as Revolutionary Jack points out, you wouldn't want to do that if you intend to make the entire government/country of some other country look bad. As far as that though, they shouldn't be doing that, anyway. If the point of making Thailand into fictional Madripoor is so you can portray the whole country in the worst light possible -- just don't do that, because xenophobia is not cool.

    But I mean, I'm not personally opposed to something like Banner doing above-ground gamma bomb tests in fictional Nevada or where ever, because sure, in the real world they wouldn't be doing that -- but also in the real world, being caught in radiation doesn't give you the ability to transform into an indestructible 9 foot tall monster, so ... you know, not going to get too hung up, if some of the circumstances they make up for the characters is not quite in synch with our real world. It's comic books, I'm not expecting it to reflect the world outside my windows.
    I think with Madripoor it's not about making a statement about Thailand, but having a fictional place in that part of the world where anything from high adventure to dirty crime can happen. In it's own way, it's as fantastical as Atlantis or The Lost City of Gold.

  4. #64
    Mighty Member Zauriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed2962 View Post
    I think with Madripoor it's not about making a statement about Thailand, but having a fictional place in that part of the world where anything from high adventure to dirty crime can happen. In it's own way, it's as fantastical as Atlantis or The Lost City of Gold.
    Well, Thailand has a reputation as a place of prostitution and human trafficking. Don't get me wrong. I visited Thailand before. Thai people are nice. It has beautiful beaches, Buddhist temples and delicious durians. I enjoyed my time there. I didn't go to any brothels.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_tr...ng_in_Thailand

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_...ng_in_Thailand

    Some of Archie Comics' superhero comic books featuring the Shield substituted Germans with "Teutonics" and Japanese with "Asiatics", a few months before the US entry into WWII

  5. #65
    Astonishing Member TheRay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GOLGO 13 View Post
    The companies certainly don't care
    I don't think you can really say this. They reboot every couple of years because of continuity.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    Isn't the point of these fictional countries xenophobia just the same?
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Allen View Post
    Yeah, that is exactly what I was saying. Don't make it a fictional country so you can hate on these other people and say it doesn't count, because it's fictional.
    At the end of the day, comics are created for readers in the real world. They are not meant for the readers inside the Marvel Universe, or fictional Quraci, Madripoorians and so on.

    And I honestly don't think the main takeaway is necessarily xenophobia (though probably so with Qurac). Like a lot of people are invested in the lore and background of Latveria, Madripoor and so on. The world-building and stuff is what people are interested in, and that kind of engagement doesn't really suggest hatred. Curiosity more like.

    Quote Originally Posted by ed2962 View Post
    I think with Madripoor it's not about making a statement about Thailand,
    Madripoor is based on Singapore. It's in the name, lol. Madripoor is a city-state ruled by oligarchs, just like Singapore, where you have a port-town, ex-pats, and a kind of Dubai on the Malacca Straits, where you can do a Mos Eisley Cantina-like atmosphere of the kind based on early '30s pulp fiction (think Terry and the Pirates, TaleSpin). There's also inspirations like Macau, a Portuguese run colony on the Pearl Delta of China that is today the gambling capital of the world (sorry, not sorry, Vegas) and was famous in the ealry 20thC. for also being a "wretched hive" of villainy and so on. Also Hong Kong and the Kownloon Walled City, and today you could also see it as a kind of Dubai-like substitute.

    There's a movie called SAINT JACK by Peter Bogdanovich, came out in the '70s. It's a good indication of the kind of seedy atmosphere you can sense in Madripoor.

    ...but having a fictional place in that part of the world where anything from high adventure to dirty crime can happen
    It's also something that doesn't allow you to tie yourself to history too problematically. The real Singapore gentrified pretty spectacularly, famously becoming "Disneyland with the death penalty" in the '90s even if it continued to be an authoritarian oligarchical city-state. Hong Kong with its Kownloon Walled City was also famously evocative of that but the Walled City era is over and now HK's history and "independence" seems to be over as well.

    And these days given China's totalitarian control of PR, it's handy to have a fictional city embody the global issues of Chinese power near the South China Sea and the Malacca Straits. So Madripoor becomes an allegorical arena to play that out.

  7. #67
    Fantastic Member captchuck's Avatar
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    I started reading Marvel Comics in the late 1960's when Stan Lee and Roy Thomas were in charge of everything. The continuity was fun because there were a limited number of titles and characters to keep track of. As the line expanded and more writers were involved and the characters had been around much longer, continuity seemed to make less sense. By the 1980's, there was no way to keep the same feel. Spider-Man would have to be moving toward being 40. It no longer made sense that he would continue behaving the same way in a similar costume.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by captchuck View Post
    I started reading Marvel Comics in the late 1960's when Stan Lee and Roy Thomas were in charge of everything. The continuity was fun because there were a limited number of titles and characters to keep track of. As the line expanded and more writers were involved and the characters had been around much longer, continuity seemed to make less sense. By the 1980's, there was no way to keep the same feel. Spider-Man would have to be moving toward being 40. It no longer made sense that he would continue behaving the same way in a similar costume.
    Well in the '80s, Spider-Man matured in the comics. Roger Stern, Defalco, DeMatteis, PAD, Michelinie aged up the characters believably. The continuity wasn't in synch with real-time aging but it was aging the characters very slowly. Spider-Man in the 1980s was written in a far more believable and mature manner than he has been written since 2008.

    Spider-Man and Mary Jane got married on the character's 25th anniversary of publication in 1987 (AF#15 debuted in 1962 for those who want to check the math). As I said continuity is about emotion. Emotionally I don't need continuity to be literal and age up the characters in real-time but I do need progression and change and growth, especially when it makes sense for the story and the alternatives wouldn't be as interesting, and it proceeds organically from reader-engagement and it makes a neat milestone.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by captchuck View Post
    I started reading Marvel Comics in the late 1960's when Stan Lee and Roy Thomas were in charge of everything. The continuity was fun because there were a limited number of titles and characters to keep track of. As the line expanded and more writers were involved and the characters had been around much longer, continuity seemed to make less sense. By the 1980's, there was no way to keep the same feel. Spider-Man would have to be moving toward being 40. It no longer made sense that he would continue behaving the same way in a similar costume.
    It's always a challenge to try to maintain the same character as societies evolve. College Peter activist wouldn't work in the 80s like he did in the 60s.

    That said, aging peter into an adult was a terrible mistake, outdone only by regressing him and undoing his marriage by betraying all he'd ever stood for.

  10. #70
    Fantastic Member captchuck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Well in the '80s, Spider-Man matured in the comics. Roger Stern, Defalco, DeMatteis, PAD, Michelinie aged up the characters believably. The continuity wasn't in synch with real-time aging but it was aging the characters very slowly. Spider-Man in the 1980s was written in a far more believable and mature manner than he has been written since 2008.

    Spider-Man and Mary Jane got married on the character's 25th anniversary of publication in 1987 (AF#15 debuted in 1962 for those who want to check the math). As I said continuity is about emotion. Emotionally I don't need continuity to be literal and age up the characters in real-time but I do need progression and change and growth, especially when it makes sense for the story and the alternatives wouldn't be as interesting, and it proceeds organically from reader-engagement and it makes a neat milestone.
    I agree that those were good comics, and all those writers did a great job, but there was no way to advance Spider'Man from this point. An aging married guy dressing up in a circus costume every night to fight criminals?

  11. #71
    Fantastic Member captchuck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by green_garnish View Post
    It's always a challenge to try to maintain the same character as societies evolve. College Peter activist wouldn't work in the 80s like he did in the 60s.

    That said, aging peter into an adult was a terrible mistake, outdone only by regressing him and undoing his marriage by betraying all he'd ever stood for.
    I think he needed to stay a teenager. Just like Charlie Brown, he shouldn't grow up. What's fun about the character is that he is a kid going up against grown men while wise-cracking. Why change that?

  12. #72
    Boisterously Confused
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    Quote Originally Posted by captchuck View Post
    I agree that those were good comics, and all those writers did a great job, but there was no way to advance Spider'Man from this point. An aging married guy dressing up in a circus costume every night to fight criminals?
    Well, you get down to it, a fair percentage of costumed superheroes could be described as the usefully mentally ill. Tragically troubled, but presenting in a way that interdicts a greater harm.

  13. #73
    Fantastic Member captchuck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    Well, you get down to it, a fair percentage of costumed superheroes could be described as the usefully mentally ill. Tragically troubled, but presenting in a way that interdicts a greater harm.
    When I read the late-60's comics in the late 60's, I was younger than Peter Parker. I was 12. Wearing crazy costumes in the middle of the night fighting guys didn't sound as insane back then as when I was married and approaching middle age in the late 80's.

  14. #74
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    When you get down to it having anonymous strong beings solving problems by punching them in the face isn't a great idea. Why I was torn on the whole Civil War thing back in the day. In a real world situation, of course they'd need to register these beings. At a minimum. But I read comics to escape logic and enjoy a fun world where you can punch away your problems and the good guys always win eventually and nobody stays dead for very long.

    That's where continuity started getting iffy for me. Once characters like Stark during Civil War were taking actions that might be seen as unforgiveable, how do you headcanon that away five years (real time) down the road? Or say half of what happened with the X-books when Disney acquired the company but not the movie rights for that franchise? Actually, I suppose now that I think of it when I stopped reading Spider-Man after the Clone Saga ended with Ben dying, Norman and May coming back to life, and Peter and Mary Jane's child sort of (?) disappearing all in one issue to do a hard reset on the line that's when I realized the character I'd grown up reading since I was five wasn't around anymore.

    I didn't read another Spider-Man book until people pushed Ultimate on me, and then I learned I could enjoy Spider-Man comics again even if it would never have the same emotional connection as the original did for me. Felt the same way when Barry Allen/Hal Jordan came back and "my" Flash and Green Lantern faded into the background, then later the Young Justice kids (my "Teen Titans"). I can still enjoy stories with those characters, where and when they exist, but it will never be quite the same.

  15. #75
    Astonishing Member LordMikel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by green_garnish View Post
    It's always a challenge to try to maintain the same character as societies evolve. College Peter activist wouldn't work in the 80s like he did in the 60s.

    That said, aging peter into an adult was a terrible mistake, outdone only by regressing him and undoing his marriage by betraying all he'd ever stood for.
    I disagree, aging Spiderman out of High School was a smart thing. Not aging him and leaving him as a high schooler, I think readers would mature out of him and drop the title.
    "oh you read Spiderman? But he is a teenager and you are in your 20's, why not mature your reading up and read Iron Man."
    So many storylines fail with a teenage Parker. Kraven's Last hunt for example. I can't see Kraven wanting to hunt a teenager. I think he would see it as beneath him. I don't think Venom works either.
    I think restorative nostalgia is the number one issue with comic book fans.
    A fine distinction between two types of Nostalgia:

    Reflective Nostalgia allows us to savor our memories but accepts that they are in the past
    Restorative Nostalgia pushes back against the here and now, keeping us stuck trying to relive our glory days.

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