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  1. #76
    Mighty Member Zauriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CSTowle View Post
    When you get down to it having anonymous strong beings solving problems by punching them in the face isn't a great idea. Why I was torn on the whole Civil War thing back in the day. In a real world situation, of course they'd need to register these beings. At a minimum. But I read comics to escape logic and enjoy a fun world where you can punch away your problems and the good guys always win eventually and nobody stays dead for very long.

    That's where continuity started getting iffy for me. Once characters like Stark during Civil War were taking actions that might be seen as unforgiveable, how do you headcanon that away five years (real time) down the road? Or say half of what happened with the X-books when Disney acquired the company but not the movie rights for that franchise? Actually, I suppose now that I think of it when I stopped reading Spider-Man after the Clone Saga ended with Ben dying, Norman and May coming back to life, and Peter and Mary Jane's child sort of (?) disappearing all in one issue to do a hard reset on the line that's when I realized the character I'd grown up reading since I was five wasn't around anymore.

    I didn't read another Spider-Man book until people pushed Ultimate on me, and then I learned I could enjoy Spider-Man comics again even if it would never have the same emotional connection as the original did for me. Felt the same way when Barry Allen/Hal Jordan came back and "my" Flash and Green Lantern faded into the background, then later the Young Justice kids (my "Teen Titans"). I can still enjoy stories with those characters, where and when they exist, but it will never be quite the same.
    They're sometimes not the same characters you grew up reading. They are sometimes are. It depends on the writers.

    Peter Parker in the 21st century is hardly the same Peter Parker I grew up reading in the 1990's.

    Golden Age Superman is not the same as the Silver Age superman.

  2. #77
    Boisterously Confused
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    It's been interesting rereading Silver Age. You can see some efforts to make individual titles and features internally consistent at DC as early as the late 1950s, Flash in particular, and then, Green Lantern. Marvel didn't really get there until 1964. Oh, there were some earlier efforts to be sure. The Amazing Spider-Man #1 (1963), of course, featured the Fantastic Four, and both Ant-Man and The Hulk had guested in Fantastic Four (both 1963). About the same time, you started to get some reference between DC titles. In 1964, however, was when it really ran wild (for the times, at least) with the The Avengers and Fantastic Four crossing over in pursuit of The Hulk (25-26), Thor taking on Magneto (with multiple X-Men cameos: Journey Into Mystery #109), The Amazing Spider-Man Annual #1, featuring at least a cameo by everybody Marvel had carrying a feature or title.

    Looking at both Big Two releases month-by-month, it becomes clear that Marvel was reading fan letters, and DC was reading Marvel's sales numbers.

  3. #78
    Mighty Member Anodyne's Avatar
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    I want the character I read in this month's issue to feel like the same character I read in last month's issue. And if he or she has changed, I want an in-story explanation. Example: Pre-COIE Guy Gardner was originally a Mr. White-bread Nice-guy. When DC changed him into an obnoxious loudmouth, they said it was because he'd suffered a brain injury caused by a malfunctioning/sabotaged power ring.
    Beverly Allen, the Bee--with honey and stinger.

    "If humans have souls, then clones will have them, too."--Arthur Caplan

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordMikel View Post
    I disagree, aging Spiderman out of High School was a smart thing. Not aging him and leaving him as a high schooler, I think readers would mature out of him and drop the title.
    "oh you read Spiderman? But he is a teenager and you are in your 20's, why not mature your reading up and read Iron Man."
    So many storylines fail with a teenage Parker. Kraven's Last hunt for example. I can't see Kraven wanting to hunt a teenager. I think he would see it as beneath him. I don't think Venom works either.
    Kraven's Last Hunt would have worked great as a Frank Miller Daredevil story (though not so much as a real Daredevil story), despite the fact he's not a Daredevil villain...but given the power set, he should have been.

    Venom was never a villain that works in Spider-Man, but that's for the controversial opinions thread.

  5. #80
    Fantastic Member captchuck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by green_garnish View Post
    Kraven's Last Hunt would have worked great as a Frank Miller Daredevil story (though not so much as a real Daredevil story), despite the fact he's not a Daredevil villain...but given the power set, he should have been.

    Venom was never a villain that works in Spider-Man, but that's for the controversial opinions thread.
    You are suggesting something that I believe in. Spider-Man worked best for me when Stan Lee was writing and/or editing him. After a certain point, the tone changed depending on who was writing him. (I've never been a Venom fan, as the concept doesn't seem to fit in Spider-man's world.)

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by green_garnish View Post
    Kraven's Last Hunt would have worked great as a Frank Miller Daredevil story
    The fact is that the writer J. M. DeMatteis created the story and wrote it as a Spider-Man story. It was his story and idea, not something you can detach and pass around blithely to an entirely different writer.

    Even then I disagree.

    The entire point is that Kraven is someone who is fixated on Spider-Man as a great prey that he, the Hunter, has never captured. It's the nature of a hunter to kill a beast to master it, and then on doing so converting part of the prey into a totem (a stuffing, a skin, a trophy).

    That works because Spider-Man is a great hero who Kraven had never defeated, and Spider-Man is also a hero with an animal motif. You can't make that work with Daredevil because Daredevil is...in-universe (around '80s) not considered a great hero and certainly not someone who'd represent a great catch to Kraven, and also a dude in a devil costume doesn't have an animal motif.

    The entire idea of the story, i.e. fixating on the costume and not the man underneath, to the point that Kraven doesn't care who Spider-Man's identity is, because to him the costume represents the true self and not the person underneath...and Spider-Man scoring a moral/existential victory by retaining his humanity and compassion, all those themes work far stronger with Spider-Man.

    KLH is a dense story that works on many levels at once and you can't take it apart wily-nily. It's a story that makes more sense with an older experienced Spider-Man because the mythical terrifying idea of Spider-Man in Kraven's mind wouldn't make sense with a can't-make-a-cup-of-coffee Spider-Man that you have in the MCU. The entire debate between the person and the costume, the essence of a fragile humanity over masked heroics makes way more sense with a character with a fully body face-covering costume than a dude who shows off his chin.

  7. #82
    Astonishing Member TheRay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    I like Bugs Bunny. But it's a bit tiring when there's no context to the story. Sometimes, I want to watch the Flintstones where there is a context to their world and time moves forward.
    Sometimes a self-contained story is all well and good. But that story creates continuity in itself, it's just part of storytelling. If somebody wants to continue that story, then it's there, but if not it stands on its own.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The fact is that the writer J. M. DeMatteis created the story and wrote it as a Spider-Man story. It was his story and idea, not something you can detach and pass around blithely to an entirely different writer.

    Even then I disagree.
    So let DeMattis write the Daredevil story. Frank Miller's Daredevil is not dependent on Frank Miller.

    What I meant was that from the very beginning, Kraven makes more sense as a Daredevil or Captain America villain than Spider-Man. He's simply out of his power league, and every Spider-Man story involving him relies on Spider-Man not having the abilities he has.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordMikel View Post
    I disagree, aging Spiderman out of High School was a smart thing. Not aging him and leaving him as a high schooler, I think readers would mature out of him and drop the title.
    "oh you read Spiderman? But he is a teenager and you are in your 20's, why not mature your reading up and read Iron Man."
    So many storylines fail with a teenage Parker. Kraven's Last hunt for example. I can't see Kraven wanting to hunt a teenager. I think he would see it as beneath him. I don't think Venom works either.
    You say that as though Kraven and Venom had that many ethics to begin with. They'll rationalize it; they always do.

  10. #85
    Boisterously Confused
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    You say that as though Kraven and Venom had that many ethics to begin with. They'll rationalize it; they always do.
    Agreed. Once Kraven saw what Spider-Man could do, he wouldn't have cared if he'd been a baby. He was dangerous prey and the challenge was all that mattered. Venom? He just nuts.

  11. #86

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    Continuity in storytelling allows for a sense of progression. It could be rewarding watching your characters grow and change.

    However, Marvel and DC's continuity is hard to get attached too. Mostly because I'm a more recent fan and Marvel and DC are too inconsistent to be trusted. So I just have a loose canon in my head whenever I pick up one of their issues. I got in through the cartoon adaptations, the novels and the movies so I know enough to get by.

  12. #87
    My Face Is Up Here Powerboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by captchuck View Post
    You are suggesting something that I believe in. Spider-Man worked best for me when Stan Lee was writing and/or editing him. After a certain point, the tone changed depending on who was writing him. (I've never been a Venom fan, as the concept doesn't seem to fit in Spider-man's world.)
    I have this idea that is similar. There have been many Sherlock Holmes stories since Doyle but people don't take Holmes stories as canon except Doyle's.

    To me, the "canon" Spider-Man and most of the Marvel characters had canon adventures when Stan, Jack and Steve were involved or at least as long as Stan was still involved in some capacity, whether as editor of a book or at least editor-in-chief at Marvel. Once nobody involved in the original creative team was involved anymore, it shifted into some possibly good stories but ones that were in alternate realities that continue from events similar to those done by the original creative team. But the tone, the characterization, the whole feeling that the character and comic generates changed. On some subtle level, it's really not the same Spider-Man anymore or whichever character we're talking about.

    those original characters are gone because, just as nobody knows what would have happened with Holmes if Doyle had written more stories, nobody knows what Spidey would have done in Stan's stories had he continued.

    It's not to say that later Marvel or DC stories after the original creative team are gone are not good stories. But it just helps to admit that the original reality is not what new stories are being written in. It's partly that the original stories are time displaced (trying to take, say, a story written in 1962 and saying it happened in 2012) so you've got a teenager from the early 1960s now behaving like a teenager from the second decade of the 21st century. Aside even from that, new writers themselves born later and with different ideas inevitably reach the point where you feel this is simply not the same person.

    In that respect, DC has it right by just restarting.
    Power with Girl is better.

  13. #88
    Mighty Member Zauriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powerboy View Post
    To me, the "canon" Spider-Man and most of the Marvel characters had canon adventures when Stan, Jack and Steve were involved or at least as long as Stan was still involved in some capacity, whether as editor of a book or at least editor-in-chief at Marvel. Once nobody involved in the original creative team was involved anymore, it shifted into some possibly good stories but ones that were in alternate realities that continue from events similar to those done by the original creative team. But the tone, the characterization, the whole feeling that the character and comic generates changed. On some subtle level, it's really not the same Spider-Man anymore or whichever character we're talking about.

    those original characters are gone because, just as nobody knows what would have happened with Holmes if Doyle had written more stories, nobody knows what Spidey would have done in Stan's stories had he continued.

    It's not to say that later Marvel or DC stories after the original creative team are gone are not good stories. But it just helps to admit that the original reality is not what new stories are being written in. It's partly that the original stories are time displaced (trying to take, say, a story written in 1962 and saying it happened in 2012) so you've got a teenager from the early 1960s now behaving like a teenager from the second decade of the 21st century. Aside even from that, new writers themselves born later and with different ideas inevitably reach the point where you feel this is simply not the same person.

    In the Lee/Kirby adventures, Johnny Storm aka Human Torch was an immature, irresponsible and hotheaded teenage jerk. Years later, John Byrne transitioned Johnny Storm into a little more mature, more responsible and wiser married adult. Now Johnny Storm is back to being a hotheaded, immature and irresponsible teenage jerk.

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powerboy View Post
    I have this idea that is similar. There have been many Sherlock Holmes stories since Doyle but people don't take Holmes stories as canon except Doyle's.

    To me, the "canon" Spider-Man and most of the Marvel characters had canon adventures when Stan, Jack and Steve were involved or at least as long as Stan was still involved in some capacity, whether as editor of a book or at least editor-in-chief at Marvel. Once nobody involved in the original creative team was involved anymore, it shifted into some possibly good stories but ones that were in alternate realities that continue from events similar to those done by the original creative team. But the tone, the characterization, the whole feeling that the character and comic generates changed. On some subtle level, it's really not the same Spider-Man anymore or whichever character we're talking about.

    those original characters are gone because, just as nobody knows what would have happened with Holmes if Doyle had written more stories, nobody knows what Spidey would have done in Stan's stories had he continued.

    It's not to say that later Marvel or DC stories after the original creative team are gone are not good stories. But it just helps to admit that the original reality is not what new stories are being written in. It's partly that the original stories are time displaced (trying to take, say, a story written in 1962 and saying it happened in 2012) so you've got a teenager from the early 1960s now behaving like a teenager from the second decade of the 21st century. Aside even from that, new writers themselves born later and with different ideas inevitably reach the point where you feel this is simply not the same person.

    In that respect, DC has it right by just restarting.
    I think that's the reason why I like Japanese media a bit more. They're given more freedom to let character arcs end.

    While there may be characters like Recca, Ginta, or Maka in fiction, their stories themselves are over.

  15. #90
    Astonishing Member LordMikel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    I think that's the reason why I like Japanese media a bit more. They're given more freedom to let character arcs end.

    While there may be characters like Recca, Ginta, or Maka in fiction, their stories themselves are over.
    Also means in 20 years many will be forgotten.
    I think restorative nostalgia is the number one issue with comic book fans.
    A fine distinction between two types of Nostalgia:

    Reflective Nostalgia allows us to savor our memories but accepts that they are in the past
    Restorative Nostalgia pushes back against the here and now, keeping us stuck trying to relive our glory days.

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