DC's Immortal Hulk/House of X

[Superlad93]

Wanted to make this a thread rather than just a post because I think it's worth having a fairly long form discussion about.

What I mean by the title is that I feel like DC's setting up Superman to have an in continuity refreshing and reinventing in a similar manner to Immortal Hulk and House of X. That said, the "Superman" in question seems to be Jon Kent, in my opinion.

Basically the similar ideas behind Immortal Hulk and House of X is taking a very well known multimedia IP and redefining its role within the structure of the greater comic universe. In both cases it takes these characters/teams and turbo charges their reach, capabilities, and status. And on top of that it sets them into moral gray areas in relation to what they're normally know for or compared to the other heroes. Hulk is now more monster than hero, and out to smash the world as we know it. The X-Men now have former villains among their ranks, and early on fans (and heroes) wondered if they they'd turned evil. And in terms of powers, Hulk is now functionally immortal and linked to a cosmic death god, and the X-Men not only have the most powerful characters in Marvel among them but they're nation is among the most powerful in the world.

So, I'm looking at what we've heard from PKJ in interviews, and read in the books so far, and I'm seeing very similar ideas at play here. The big one is that in basically every interview PKJ makes sure to remind us that Jon's growing power alone is not just going to make him more powerful than Clark or Kara, but that it'll change the power structure of the DCU going forward. And similar to how Hulk and the X-Men are now figures of controversy within their universe, DC seems to want that direction for Jon given PKJ's IF story where it's said that Jon becoming Superman spells doom for Earth because he'll be a tyrant of some sort (implying he has the power and means to do so).

Then we also have the solicitation for issue 1031 of Action Comics where "Atlantean scientists study the wreckage of the Warworld vessel…and make a shocking discovery that could change the balance of power on Earth." The wording is very similar to how PKJ describes Jon's growing power. So this may be either them discovering evidence Jon's staggering powers, or something that Jon may use in addition to his great powers to change the power structure of the DCU.

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So lets answer it. Lets answer "why don't they just use Clark rather than Jon?"

The sort answer is that because he's Clark, and it's very clear that DC no longer wants to do morally ambiguous Clark because they've been burned too many times. From the way PKJ talks about his take on Clark being that perfect aspirational ideal to Superman & Lois being so full force on unambigously good Clark, I think the classic take one out. The one-two punch of Man of Steel and the New 52 getting backlash the way they did seems to have seen DC go full on classic ideal for the foreseeable future with the Clark character. But that doesn't mean that's what they want for the Superman IP in general. Since Jon doesn't carry the same baggage Clark does as an IP he's allowed to take this direction without too many people going nuts. Like, could you imagine what people on here would've said had that been Clark they were talking about in PKJ's IF story? About how Clark shouldn't be Superman anymore because he'll become a tyrant? That wouldn't have gone over well at all. But you say that about Jon and you frame it the way it was framed, and outside of the people who are still mad over the kid stuff the reaction is most just "oh, that's interesting".

And I think the overwhelming success of Immortal Hulk and X-Men plays a big role in them going for this. Like Superman, both are IPs that everyone knows, but have not been as popular as they could and should be for a while now.

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In terms of Jon as a character, the idea seems to be that his heart is in the right place, and he is still that fun and joyous person. However, due to the fact that he's going to be too powerful to *not* do the job, and his dad will be somehow out of play on Earth, he's gotta step up, and the pressure will be great. But apparently he's also a person who doesn't act and react the same way his dad would, so he may do things in such a way that, coupled with his ridiculous powers, may scare the rest of the hero community.

On top of that, there's also the possibility of him using his "insider knowledge" of the future to be proactive in ways his dad couldn't be (and maybe wouldn't be even if given the option), and, again, that may scare people.

On top of that Jon is dealing with some issues from bouncing around time and space for basically his whole life making even his technical home somewhat alien to him. There could be very real debate among the heroes regarding if it's safe for the world because Jon has that much power

You're essentially looking at an 18 year old god knowledge of the future and maybe even new crazy tech from the downed Warworld ship.

[Superlad93]

Worth also mentioning that both PKJ and Williamson have said that Jon's going to be a very big part of the line going forward, and that there's very big plans for him coming up. It can't just be that he's co Superman since they pretty unceremoniously had Diana acknowledge him as that in PKJ's IF story, and Future Sate already let that be known as an idea. So the "big plans" have gotta be something aside from that.

And this could even by part of the reason why Kara is stepping up more as Clark's equal. She'd essentially fill the "traditional Superman" role while Clark's off in space and Jon's the Superman version of Immortal Hulk.

It all really comes down to who writes him after PKJ is finished the set up. If the set up is this interesting, then I have to imagine the writer will be someone similar to an Ewing or Hickman. If Jason Aaron weren't doing his big Heroes Reborn thing, I'd say him. Fraction or Zdarsky are my guesses right now for this more charged take on the Superman IP.

[Kuwagaton]

As always, you went so far in that I feel inadequate in responding. I'm so far behind on both Marvel titles that I can just comprehend the idea of the scale, how much of this going forward relies on someone who comes after PKJ?

[Quinlan58]

Maybe I could bring myself to entertain this idea of controversial Jon being the future of the franchise, if the entirely-editorially mandated Superman of Metropolis wasn't about Jon rejecting any controversial choices he made in the first issue and just becoming standard Superman in the rest of the books.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

What I mean by the title is that I feel like DC's setting up Superman to have an in continuity refreshing and reinventing in a similar manner to Immortal Hulk and House of X.

Immortal Hulk and HoX/PoX were ideas derived from writers with strong ideas and creative visions (Al Ewing and Jonathan Hickman), whereas the DC thing seems to be done by the suits. So I don't think the latter is gonna be as ambitious in conception and execution as the gents from Marvel.

Basically the similar ideas behind Immortal Hulk and House of X is taking a very well known multimedia IP and redefining its role within the structure of the greater comic universe.

It's a lot more complicated than that, because Immortal Hulk and HoX/PoX concerns characters and titles who had been on a backburner suddenly coming center stage. It's not something you can easily copy/paste for Superman.

[Superlad93]

As always, you went so far in that I feel inadequate in responding. I'm so far behind on both Marvel titles that I can just comprehend the idea of the scale, how much of this going forward relies on someone who comes after PKJ?

Ha! I always look forward to hearing from you, so please always respond! And to answer your question, I'd say pretty much all of it. PKJ is doing the heavy, heavy world building in what seems to be an almost House of X style, and who they get after that will be taking that set up with the Jon Superman book (since PKJ will be full-time on Action after the event) and running with it.

Fraction and Zdarsky were tied to the rumors regarding doing new takes on Batman and Superman for DC as the alternative to 5G. So far, Zdarsky has been confirmed to be doing DC work with JL: Last Ride, and Fraction did confirm that DC spoke to him about wanting him to be a much bigger part of the 5G plan. As we know, like with the case of PKJ, if you were tapped for 5G there's a good chance you'll be on a post IF book because they still like those idea. And I could very easily see either writer being both big enough and fresh enough that DC would want to make them a Superman style rebuttal to Immortal Hulk/House of X.

Maybe I could bring myself to entertain this idea of controversial Jon being the future of the franchise, if the entirely-editorially mandated Superman of Metropolis wasn't about Jon rejecting any controversial choices he made in the first issue and just becoming standard Superman in the rest of the books.

I mean, I feel like PKJ's story about Jon in IF is more relevant to the discussion than Superman of Metropolis. In that story it's about the fear of what Jon could become and the perception of his actions vs who he actually and what his action actually are.

But I think beyond that maybe the biggest bit of evidence is Kara. She's now being pushed as Clark's unambiguous equal in power and ability, yet Jon is being pushed as stronger than both. With maybe going off the table I think Kara will fill the void of traditional Superman with traditional Superman powers and power levels, Jon will be a non traditional take with greater power and, as we've recent ally learned, new variations on traditional powers. I think that set up is deliberate.

[Bruce Wayne]

And I could very easily see either writer being both big enough and fresh enough that DC would want to make them a Superman style rebuttal to Immortal Hulk/House of X.

That's never going to happen at DC. The editors have way too much control over these books and they are not going to try and upset Bendis just after he left by essentially repudiating his stuff. DC is way too much of a top-down organization that writers are never going to get the opportunity to do an Immortal Hulk and PoX/HoX barring them being Johns/Morrison/Snyder since editorial/management have far more creative input. PKJ or whoever editorial puts in place is not going to do a bold new direction rather they are here to maintain a status quo desired by tptb at DC.

[Superlad93]

It's a lot more complicated than that, because Immortal Hulk and HoX/PoX concerns characters and titles who had been on a backburner suddenly coming center stage. It's not something you can easily copy/paste for Superman.

I'm not trying to imply the total copy/paste job you're thinking, but rather taking inspiration from a situation and seeing what can be applied to their character. These are ideas that DC has actually wanted to see materialize for quite some time long before either book. The idea of the controversial Superman or the idea of the unambiguously supremely powerful Superman or the more proactive Superman are ideas that have been thought about for a while now. Figuring out the context they want to explore that has been the issue.

And it's worth mentioning that apparently the way the Batman line is structured is apparently inspired by how the post-House of X line is being made. So these are things that are on their minds because ultimately neither company lives in isolation.

[Bruce Wayne]

I would argue how Tom King was treated on Batman (remember the previous press of getting him to do a 100 issue run) and then shoved off for Tynion shows how there is little desire to let writers make their mark on these books. The same deal for Tomasi/Gleason being shoved off for DC's new golden boy. There is far too much bts interoffice politics between writers/editors that creating comics falls to the wayside.

[sifighter]

I like a lot of the sound of this but personally when I hear DC’s immortal hulk Im thinking more of Ram V’s Swamp Thing.

Depending on the culture building in Superman I could totally see PoX though.

[Quinlan58]

I mean, I feel like PKJ's story about Jon in IF is more relevant to the discussion than Superman of Metropolis. In that story it's about the fear of what Jon could become and the perception of his actions vs who he actually and what his action actually are.

But I think beyond that maybe the biggest bit of evidence is Kara. She's now being pushed as Clark's unambiguous equal in power and ability, yet Jon is being pushed as stronger than both. With maybe going off the table I think Kara will fill the void of traditional Superman with traditional Superman powers and power levels, Jon will be a non traditional take with greater power and, as we've recent ally learned, new variations on traditional powers. I think that set up is deliberate.

Kara's portrayal in her Future State book and the solicitation for her solo book is, if anything, much further from the traditional Superman portrayal than anything with Jon so far, including the tyrant discussion in IF (which isn't an uncommon theme for Superman). In one place she's rejecting the violence of the normal superhero lifestyle to build a sanctuary for refugees, in the other she's going away from traditional superhero-as-Earth-protector role to help a single alien that parallels her.

Meanwhile, Jon is either: an initially controversial Superman who rejects these actions to become a traditional take (Future State), basically an understudy under his father (solicitations for Superman/Action Comics) or someone who some powerful people are afraid may become a tyrant (IF, and this isn't uncommon for Superman as I said before).

Jon, from what we've seen, is being build up to struggle with the Superman Legacy. Kara, from everything we know, is being build up to reject the Superman Legacy, in favor of her own. So I don't think she'll be positioned as traditional Superman to Jon's non-traditional one.

[Superlad93]

That's never going to happen at DC. The editors have way too much control over these books and they are not going to try and upset Bendis just after he left by essentially repudiating his stuff. DC is way too much of a top-down organization that writers are never going to get the opportunity to do an Immortal Hulk and PoX/HoX barring them being Johns/Morrison/Snyder since editorial/management have far more creative input. PKJ or whoever editorial puts in place is not going to do a bold new direction rather they are here to maintain a status quo desired by tptb at DC.

How can you really say that when the direction PKJ is taking Clark in is confirmed *not* to be what was indented for 5G and by proxy Bendis. Rather the direction something that's far more in line with PKJ's sensibilities and interests. These are confirmed.

And this wouldn't be taking away from anything Bendis put in place. We've already established that. It's taking it forward, and using it as a direct launching pad. The idea of Jon taking over as Superman and being a very, very big deal going forward are things Bendis set up. The nuts and bolts of how and why are now up for grabs because of the shift from 5G.

[Bruce Wayne]

Because 5G isn't Bendis's baby. It was the pet project of the previous publisher of DC Comics, a project that ultimately alienated both writers and editors. It's a very clear sign of how DC is controlled from the top-down and how events and stories are more pushed by editorial than individual creators. The fact that PKJ has to respect Bendis's stuff and isn't out to undo it just shows that he's not out to rock the boat, but to maintain a status quo that is desired by the current editors&management.

Edit:Not to mention the borderline conspiracy theories that 5G was intended to fail as "proof" for management that legacy characters were unworkable.

[Superlad93]

So I don't think she'll be positioned as traditional Superman to Jon's non-traditional one.

But everything thing in the interviews and stories we're hearing now is saying otherwise.

Kara is the one taking Clark's place in terms of power. That's not my speculation, but rather what's been said. And Jon's the one that's going beyond that and having variations on the normal powers. And beyond that it's now being brought up how Jon feels a disconnect from everything around him because of how crazy his life has been, and how that even his dad-- being an actual alien-- can't relate to that.

I doubt Kara will be Clark down to the red shorts. That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that Supergirl (or Woman) may provide the more traditional Superman power and flare especially when Clark himself will be both off world and getting weaker in power. That leaves Jon different from both in so inherently (down to the fact that he's 18) the it seem more likely that he's doing things differently.

[Superlad93]

Because 5G isn't Bendis's baby. It was the pet project of the previous publisher of DC Comics, a project that ultimately alienated both writers and editors. It's a very clear sign of how DC is controlled from the top-down and how events and stories are more pushed by editorial than individual creators. The fact that PKJ has to respect Bendis's stuff and isn't out to undo it just shows that he's not out to rock the boat, but to maintain a status quo that is desired by the current editors&management.

I'm not gonna sit here go into long form argument about the internal politics of a company that I'm neither a part of nor have inside info on. If that's how you feel then that's how you feel. I'm only making this thread based on the speculation and theory crafting made possible by interviews and comics. It honestly didn't make much sense for me to reply in the first place as if I knew what was what.