How Would You Improve Superman: The Animated Series?

[superduperman]

The BTAS visual style -- with its dark noir look, shadows, and Art deco flourishes -- would not have been appropriate for a character as bright and colorful as Superman. It would have made the same mistake that Snyder made i.e. make Man of Steel similar to Nolan's Batman movies and not in keeping with Superman as a distinct character.

Timm and others also didn't want a period flourish for Superman because that would make them similar to the Fleischer cartoons and he didn't want to step on toes of an imperishable classic.



Have you seen KNIGHT TIME, where Batman became Braniac's little b-tch and a meat-puppet and had to be bailed out by Superman singlehandedly, who also has fun being a better Batman than he ever was?

Can we judge STAS on all the episodes rather than cherry-pick the ones that suit the grudges people have?

It wasn't just Superman. The Batman series went downhill as well. The stark differences were offputting. I feel like BTAS should be it's own universe. Maybe Superman exists there, maybe he doesn't. But it works better on it's own. I don't hate Batman. I just don't like the idea of him overshadowing everyone else all the time. Especially a guy who can kill him just by looking at him. The stories themselves, at least in terms of just STAS, were pretty good. Not a Lobo fan but past that, they were pretty good. I also kind of wish we got to see the world learn to trust him again after the Darkseid incident. I'm not a fan of "evil Superman" but that one at least seemed logical.

[SiegePerilous02]

It wasn't just Superman. The Batman series went downhill as well. The stark differences were offputting. I feel like BTAS should be it's own universe. Maybe Superman exists there, maybe he doesn't. But it works better on it's own. I don't hate Batman. I just don't like the idea of him overshadowing everyone else all the time. Especially a guy who can kill him just by looking at him. The stories themselves, at least in terms of just STAS, were pretty good. Not a Lobo fan but past that, they were pretty good. I also kind of wish we got to see the world learn to trust him again after the Darkseid incident. I'm not a fan of "evil Superman" but that one at least seemed logical.

I too think TNBA is a step down from BTAS, even though it and Batman Beyond are still excellent cartoons. The change in art styles definitely creates a disconnect, plus some characters (Freeze, Clayface, the Joker in MoTP) had pretty great endings that didn't need continuations. Even if said continuations were pretty good (great in the case of the Joker).

I tend to view BTAS as its own thing, and TNBA and Beyond are in "contested sequels" for me personally.

[Jadeb]

I wish they’d gone with a different art style. It needed to be its own show, not BTAS’ lesser sibling.

[Mistah K88]

People really didn’t like the fight against Bane in Knight Time? It’s like when you’re play fighting a two year old and doing the over dramatics so they think they are winning...or when you’re playing tug of war with a chihuahua, but let them have a little pull on the toy so they think they are achieving something.

[Dralokonda]

Increase his powers and abilities aswell as those of his adversaries and bring in threats that merit this power level while having superman dealing with down to earth threats and problems that he cannot punch his way out of with thought provoking storytelling and characterization.

Improve on his characterization both as superman and as clark kent the reporter. Have stories focused on clark kent that emulate his reporter skills and have him go on adventures and incidents akin to those of tintin with superman himself making only minor or subtle appearances so all focus remains on clark

Develop clarks relationships with the people around him both as clark and as superman. Enrich clarks life and history prior to his arrival and establishment in metropolis. The places he went to, people he interacted with, the lessons he learned and relationships he formed.

Delve into the essence of what metropolis is to humanity and the world, create reasons why superman is needed more so in metropolis than in gotham

Have a fight between batman and superman where clark wins while placing for once in the wrong

Develop lois's relationship with both clark kent and superman aswell as a romance between clark and lois as opposed to lois and superman

[Multiverse]

Expand the Daily Planet Staff a bit more (more screen time with Ron Troupe and maybe a DCAU take on Steve Lombard and Cat Grant)

Certain villains needed more character moments outside of their debut episode; especially Metallo (didn't he also have a grudge against Luthor, not just Superman), Parasite (Rudy could have been a bit more tragic), and Livewire (I know she was made for the series, but man she was made a little too unlikeable).

Shame General Zod, Prankster and Terra-Man weren't in the show; and even though Ultra-Humanite and Mongul were introduced in JL, it would have been nice to see them debut here.

More development between Lois and Clark; this is one of the few versions of Lois who never learnt he was Superman, and that always disappointed me.

More General Hardcastle, NUFF SAID!!!

If the embargo didn't happen, we would DEFINITELY have had Diana guest star in the series.

The Legion of Super-Heroes episode needed an extra revision in my opinion.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Increase his powers and abilities aswell as those of his adversaries and bring in threats that merit this power level

The show did this multiple times. That's why Darkseid was there.

...while having superman dealing with down to earth threats and problems that he cannot punch his way out of with thought provoking storytelling and characterization.

Again the show did this, in "The Late Mr. Kent".

Improve on his characterization both as superman and as clark kent the reporter.

Also did this. In "The Late Mr. Kent"

[kingaliencracker]

I loved Superman: The Animated Series. So for me I wouldn't change much. I think they ran out of steam in terms of Superman stories by the end of the series so we got a lot more JL characters and Batman crossovers, so that would probably be my only grip. Having said that, I felt they also ran out of steam with Batman too, although they were able to get a lot more Batman-centric episodes in by the time that happened.

Saying Superman: The Animated Series doesn't compare to Batman: The Animated Series is pretty much like saying (insert random, great cartoon) doesn't compare to Batman: The Animated Series. I mean the series is the standard now, so IMO there's nothing wrong with the Superman series not being as good, because no show is IMO.

[Kuwagaton]

Though I'm not sure people would compare it so much without the similarities. The Spider-Man cartoon really doesn't suffer such a comparison to X-Men.

The STAS stories themselves IMO were a fantastic balance between streamlined adaptation and "Timmverse."

The power thing... this is the only version where power level really matters to me, because he was presented as a powerful character while being what has to be the weakest Superman in pop culture. Like he wasn't abundant in experience or intelligence and struggled with some rather unimpressive feats of strength. I think a cartoon should go for broke in that regard... how many people would watch that show without picking up a comic, y'know?

[Revolutionary_Jack]

The power thing... this is the only version where power level really matters to me, because he was presented as a powerful character while being what has to be the weakest Superman in pop culture.

The power thing doesn't bother me because I found Christopher Reeve turning back time by reversing the axis laughably silly and absurd when I saw it (and to me it totally kills the movie) that I didn't mind you know.

The pop-culture version of Superman in terms of strength is 'turn back time' and anything less than that will be a comedown.

I think people don't care so much about these kind of things as many Superman fans seem to believe so.

Saying Superman: The Animated Series doesn't compare to Batman: The Animated Series is pretty much like saying (insert random, great cartoon) doesn't compare to Batman: The Animated Series. I mean the series is the standard now, so IMO there's nothing wrong with the Superman series not being as good, because no show is IMO.

Superman TAS did a lot of things that Batman TAS didn't.

For one thing,
-- ON-screen character death, when Dan Turpin a major supporting character got killed in an ongoing serial episode. Not a made-for-home video movie like Phantasm or ROTJ but on a regular episode, y'know for kids.

-- The bloodiest fight scene in any superhero cartoon in the '90s.



This fight scene between Superman and Darkseid was better than any fight in any adaptation until that time -- better than Adam West Batman fights, Batman movie fights, any of the Reeve movie fights, and any other cartoon fight that came before. You would have to wait for Sam Raimi's Spider-Man 1, for the final fight between Spidey and Green Goblin for anything quite as comparable.

And don't tell me that Darkseid isn't powerful enough to draw blood from Superman.

[Comics N' Toons]

I think they did a lot right. I thought the tone was perfect... but I think, as they did with BTAS, they should have attempted to make it more timeless. How? I'm not completely sure.

The art style was far too cartoony, not nearly as groundbreaking as BTAS. Timm's original designs were FAR FAR better.
Superman TAS original concepts.jpg

I did appreciate the final screen-used Lex Luthor, based on Telly Savalas.

I think Timm and co. obviously didnt have their heart in this.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I think they did a lot right. I thought the tone was perfect... but I think, as they did with BTAS, they should have attempted to make it more timeless.

"Timeless" isn't about superficially aping period noir fashions.

How? I'm not completely sure.

Well I am glad you say that. That's something both of us agree on. We should take and accept the show we have and not assume that there was a guaranteed place in the sun for a Superman TAS show to have the same pull as BTAS did.

The art style was far too cartoony, not nearly as groundbreaking as BTAS.

If BTAS had failed and gotten a mixed reception with people attacking it for not being contemporary by saying Batman belongs to the past and so on...would you still be saying it wasn't as groundbreaking as BTAS. Because it seems to me that you aren't criticizing the show but the reception, and arguing that if STAS looked exactly like BTAS people would have liked or responded to it better.

After all when we look at the stuff BTAS inspired, the period fashions and style has always been far less influential than other things they did.

Timm's original designs were FAR FAR better.
Superman TAS original concepts.jpg

No they aren't better. The Lois design that Timm created had a slyness, sarcasm, and tough edge that this more demure take on Lois doesn't have. People who dig up concept art and hold them up as better than the final product have no sense of imagining how it would actually function (hence the people who dig up the ugly animatronic of the Green Goblin costume and think it would be better than the helmet design they went with in the final movie).

Remember the Fleischer cartoons were made in the '40s. They didn't design the characters to look like '40s creations they designed them to look like a fantastic extension of their present. So Timm and others did likewise, they made their take on Superman look like "what if the Fleischers made those cartoons today" so the Superman '90s cartoon has a kind of mix of contemporary and future look at it. The Cars for instance look like concept vehicles more than any real models, you have Maggie Sawyer's Police branche with Turpin which has more advanced weapons than what you see in the '90s. The architecture takes inspiration from googie and world's fair inspirations married to contemporary looks.

Likewise '40s design style has a problem when you deal with characters like Brainiac and Darkseid who come from a later era of comics history rather than the '40s.

I think Timm and co. obviously didnt have their heart in this.

What does it matter? Bryan Singer cared for Superman and had his heart in it, and yet their movies set the character back in adaptations.

Having "heart" or wholeheartedly liking a character and so on is absolutely not a guarantee that it would lead to a good adaptation.

[DochaDocha]

The show has moments of brilliance, but overall I thought it was too bland or disappointing at times for me to call myself a fan.

Biggest problem for me was that it was created under the wrong frame of mind. The creators saw Superman's powers as an obstacle to the writing, so took the easy way out and just nerfed Superman to make the show easier for them to write. That's a no-no.

To be fair on this first critique, they had a similar approach with Batman not to make him too freakin' awesome at fighting, so a lot of fights in early BTAS seem unusually difficult for Batman. But, when they got to adding Superman into their universe, they took those restrictions off Batman. On the one hand, both Batman and Superman started their respective shows with limitations. But, when Superman and Batman were simultaneously in the same show, the philosophy was let's get rid of these limiting restrictions on Batman's abilities, but let's put a crap-ton on Superman. Go back to the "World's Finest" episode when Bats and Supes are fighting side-by-side against Lex's robots. The earthbound mortal is dodging laser blasts and jumping over giant robots (with help of a grapple gun), but the guy who's faster than a speeding bullet and can leap the tallest building in a single bound is getting battered. That's some silly juxtaposition, if you ask me. More importantly, they realized unshackling Batman was a good idea, but then made the same mistake with Superman. If they started off with a baseline Superman of their amped version for the Justice League cartoon, it would've been so much better.

Also, I lose a lot of faith when the show's creator says stuff like Superman is an "intrinsically dull character" or "doesn't make a lot of sense" in modern times, in conjuction with already not really being thrilled with the final product. And this POV shows itself when Superman would meet up with characters the writers thought are more interesting (e.g. Batman) or any of his non-Lois, historical love interests. Superman just comes across as boring in these moments. He just doesn't have much interesting interaction/reaction in too many of these moments.

My biggest overly-specific pet peeve was that whenever Superman put on a protective suit, it would get destroyed in a way that made Superman look like a bumbling fool. So not only was Superman not terribly interesting, he just came across as kind of dimwitted, too. I only watched about half the show, but this specific instance happened like five times.

Since I don't like being such a Negative Nelly all the time, here are some things I think the show did well:

1) Trolling. It didn't happen much, but when it did, it was great, e.g. trolling Lois about how he (Clark) is really Superman and steals bylines from her, trolls her when he and Lana explained how he didn't die in the car bomb, punks Mxyzptlk repeatedly throughout Mxy's debut episode, and creeps out Tim Drake by perfectly mimicking his voice. Really could've used more of that.

2) Guest characters. Usually, these guys ended up being more interesting than Superman himself, but the show paved the way to a wider DCAU by giving us Flash, GL Corps + Guardians, Aquaman, Dr. Fate, Lobo, and Fourth World.

[SiegePerilous02]

What does it matter? Bryan Singer cared for Superman and had his heart in it, and yet their movies set the character back in adaptations.

Having "heart" or wholeheartedly liking a character and so on is absolutely not a guarantee that it would lead to a good adaptation.

It isn't a guarantee, but I don't think that needs to prevent fans from wanting something better. We can recognize that sometimes it results in something like Singer's tepid homage to Donner.

For someone who thinks Superman is intrinsically less interesting than batman and doesn't make a lot of sense in the modern day (but Batman does?), Timm still turned out a pretty good (at times great) product. But why not still wish for something better? There can be talented creators out there who love Superman and his world first and foremost. Why do we keep having to settle for the likes of Timm and Snyder?

Doesn't help that Superman himself in this show is just...fine, but not very interesting. He's kind of dull and at times dim witted. It made me like him well enough as a kid, but not become overly attached to him. I had to find other content to get him to click for me, whereas BTAS did it with Batman almost immediately. None of the kids I grew up with came away from this thinking Superman was cool either.

[DochaDocha]

It isn't a guarantee, but I don't think that needs to prevent fans from wanting something better. We can recognize that sometimes it results in something like Singer's tepid homage to Donner.

For someone who thinks Superman is intrinsically less interesting than batman and doesn't make a lot of sense in the modern day (but Batman does?), Timm still turned out a pretty good (at times great) product. But why not still wish for something better? There can be talented creators out there who love Superman and his world first and foremost. Why do we keep having to settle for the likes of Timm and Snyder?

Doesn't help that Superman himself in this show is just...fine, but not very interesting. He's kind of dull and at times dim witted. It made me like him well enough as a kid, but not become overly attached to him. I had to find other content to get him to click for me, whereas BTAS did it with Batman almost immediately. None of the kids I grew up with came away from this thinking Superman was cool either.

Well put.

In short, when you think the show is OK, or good but not great, or whatever, and you read the creator isn't all that enthusiastic about Superman, it does leave you wondering what could've been if there was someone more passionate about the subject matter.

Having passion for your work doesn't guarantee you'll do a good job, but I tend to think more often than not it's a positive thing and leads to more success (frequency) and greater heights.