How Would You Improve Superman: The Animated Series?

[SiegePerilous02]

Fact is across the DCAU, Batman was always shown struggling against stuff Superman dealt with. Like Luthor and his tech always get the upper hand on him. In JLU the episode where he confronts Luthor solo has him (secretly powered by Brainiac) punch him out of the building, Batman tries to grapple but finds out Luthor's skyscrapers have anti-grapple designs and Superman has to come and pick him up. In the Injustice Gang episode in JL season 1, Luthor also sucker punches Batman.

So it's not like DCAU constantly downplays Superman in favor of Batman. He's given due respect and it's shown to us that he deals with stuff above Batman's pay-grade.

I think it's either Wonder Woman or Hawkgirl actually, because it's a sleeveless feminine arm that grabs him.

I think stuff on Superman's pay grade is part of the issue. If Batman can't handle stuff on that level (though that doesn't prevent him from doing stuff like judo throwing Kalibak, knocking out Sinestro with a batarang while his ring is active or dodging Darkseid's Omega Beams on occasion), he still has other areas of expertise and his intellect to fall back on and make him cool. An issue with DCAU Superman, more so in the JL/U era, is that he's just kind of a meat head who is good for either jobbing or pulling out the big feats and being blandly inspirational, but not much else.

It says a lot that one of the quintessential moments for him is the "World of Cardboard" speech, which is a purely physical action. It's presented as his big moment....and it doesn't even work. Lex has to bail his ass out when Darkseid gets the upper hand again.

[marhawkman]

It says a lot that one of the quintessential moments for him is the "World of Cardboard" speech, which is a purely physical action. It's presented as his big moment....and it doesn't even work. Lex has to bail his ass out when Darkseid gets the upper hand again.

I disagree. Let's be real... it's SUPER-Darkseid. For Superman to just solo him at that point would be stupid. Normal Darkseid is too powerful for Superman to beat easily. Super-Darkseid needs to be a ludicrously over the top fight. Superman vs a being who is his two most powerful foes merged into one? That's not gonna be a simple one on one.

[Superlad93]

Honestly, conceptually, the show is great. I wouldn't change anything, but rather just do more of what worked in it, and transplant what worked about the Batman shows to it.

* One and done set up and punchline epsides like "Two's a crowd", "The Prometheon", "The Late Mr. Kent", "Fun and Games", "My Girl", "Speed Demons", "Action Figures", "Solar Power", "Ghost in The Machine", and "Bizarro World" along with the more pulp or experimental episodes of Batman should be the standard for the show. Just throw us into an episodes, and allow connective tissue of continuity to be an Easter egg.

* The team was more interested in a pulp action set up, so I think they should've allowed themselves to go more in that direction even with their more retro modern style.

* More stories focused on villains and supporting cast with Superman/Clark being more of a punchline/plot device. I'm sure they'd have loved to do a pulpy Parry White story that sees him finally crack a story that had haunted him since his cub reporter days. Or a gang war between two villains (maybe Toyman and Prankster?)?

* His power levels were just fine honestly.

* Go darker earlier. Strange to say with Superman, but that's really it. The DCAU has always been at its best when it felt like an HBO drama that just happened to be animated. Put aside that you're doing Superman for a second, and just tell some stories with some real gravity to them earlier on.

* Get to the Darkseid stuff faster. This goes hand in hand with the go darker faster thing.

* More Kirby stuff all around.

* Give us the son of Superman and Lashina...but do it via cloning so you can force age the kid up, and get us to the confrontation and Crisis style death that likely undercuts "For The Man Who Has Everything" a bit. Perfect way to cap things off especially if Lois and Clark are finally getting closer if not dating. That dark reflection of what Clark was while he was controlled, but also still technically his kid in a way.

[superduperman]

IF Wolfman had been in charge with the people who did BTAS perhaps under him, I think this could have been great. I dunno why, but I get the feeling Wolfman by himself wouldnt have been enough. Didn't he do the Ruby Spears show too? Apart from Gil Kane's character designs, it was pretty awful.

Speaking as a fan of the Ruby Spears cartoon, I can say that there's no way they would have been able to do a STAS type show back then anyway. They couldn't even use bullet guns. The rules were just too strict. It's a step up from Super-Friends but I highly doubt that anything like BTAS or STAS would have been able to get on the air back then. I loved the Family Album segments (Wolfman actually wrote the most problematic one where he uses his powers openly in front of others as a baby, ironically) but I'm not naive about how it would be received today. Part of the reason that BTAS got away with as much as it did was because there was a Batman movie out that year.

[SiegePerilous02]

I disagree. Let's be real... it's SUPER-Darkseid. For Superman to just solo him at that point would be stupid. Normal Darkseid is too powerful for Superman to beat easily. Super-Darkseid needs to be a ludicrously over the top fight. Superman vs a being who is his two most powerful foes merged into one? That's not gonna be a simple one on one.

That doesn't change the fact that it's hyped up among some fans as his big moment on top of being kind of a meat head (by Superman standards) anyway, and it still manages to not be all that impressive because he still doesn't win. It's a bit "too little, too late" and essentially empty posturing.

If it wasn't the final word on DCAU Superman and his already pretty underwhelming portrayal, Darkseid winning would sting a little less. As it is, it's pretty lame and Super-Darkseid isn't a very good reason to hand wave the whole thing away.

[Superlad93]

It says a lot that one of the quintessential moments for him is the "World of Cardboard" speech, which is a purely physical action. It's presented as his big moment....and it doesn't even work. Lex has to bail his ass out when Darkseid gets the upper hand again.

But Darkseid doesn't even get one over on Clark physically. He uses a device that's not dependent on how much he or Clark can bench. Till that point it seemed pretty clear that Clark beat him physically. They just wanted to end the show with a little more mystery and suspense than "and then Superman punched him harder than anyone has ever been punched before".

[DochaDocha]

Have to agree that I have no real qualms about how Darkseid pulls one over Superman with the agony matrix, other than that maybe it follows too much of a trend where Superman doesn't look before he leaps. As others put it, this is Darkseid at his nastiest. Even if he loses a fist fight, he'll find a way to win.

Batman's dodging Omega Beams is hot garbage, unless there's some meta joke that in reality, Darkseid usually misses but he just likes to tell everyone he's always on point. I don't believe that to be the case, however. It's much more likely they were throwing Batman another unnecessary bone.

[marhawkman]

Speaking as a fan of the Ruby Spears cartoon, I can say that there's no way they would have been able to do a STAS type show back then anyway. They couldn't even use bullet guns. The rules were just too strict. It's a step up from Super-Friends but I highly doubt that anything like BTAS or STAS would have been able to get on the air back then. I loved the Family Album segments (Wolfman actually wrote the most problematic one where he uses his powers openly in front of others as a baby, ironically) but I'm not naive about how it would be received today. Part of the reason that BTAS got away with as much as it did was because there was a Batman movie out that year.

well Superfriends had some weird stuff. they had MASSIVe emphasis on creative power uses... because they couldn't write actual direct combat. Sometimes it's neat... sometimes it's like... "why are you not punching the bad guy yet?"

That doesn't change the fact that it's hyped up among some fans as his big moment on top of being kind of a meat head (by Superman standards) anyway, and it still manages to not be all that impressive because he still doesn't win. It's a bit "too little, too late" and essentially empty posturing.

If it wasn't the final word on DCAU Superman and his already pretty underwhelming portrayal, Darkseid winning would sting a little less. As it is, it's pretty lame and Super-Darkseid isn't a very good reason to hand wave the whole thing away.

If that's not then what is? People liked that scene because it's Superman hitting the villain as hard as he can and the result is spectacular. Yeah Superman loses anyways. Meh. It REALLY sold the idea that Darkseid was this UBER bad guy now.

[Tzigone]

If that's not then what is? People liked that scene because it's Superman hitting the villain as hard as he can and the result is spectacular. Yeah Superman loses anyways. Meh. It REALLY sold the idea that Darkseid was this UBER bad guy now.

But in the inverse, doesn't it show that Superman is NOT the UBER hero? Because the UBER hero would win. I mean, I don't necessarily agree with the statement, but the logic is exactly the same.

[marhawkman]

Have to agree that I have no real qualms about how Darkseid pulls one over Superman with the agony matrix, other than that maybe it follows too much of a trend where Superman doesn't look before he leaps. As others put it, this is Darkseid at his nastiest. Even if he loses a fist fight, he'll find a way to win.

When I first saw it I was thinking "Darkseid fused with Brainiac... and he's doing just Darkseid stuff for now... Then he pulls the Agony Matrix..... and I'm like "ah there's the Brainiac tech!"

[SiegePerilous02]

But Darkseid doesn't even get one over on Clark physically. He uses a device that's not dependent on how much he or Clark can bench. Till that point it seemed pretty clear that Clark beat him physically. They just wanted to end the show with a little more mystery and suspense than "and then Superman punched him harder than anyone has ever been punched before".

If that's not then what is? People liked that scene because it's Superman hitting the villain as hard as he can and the result is spectacular. Yeah Superman loses anyways. Meh. It REALLY sold the idea that Darkseid was this UBER bad guy now.

As I said, the general issue is that being super strong and good at hitting things is pretty much all that Superman does in the JLU era. I don't want him to punch him harder and solve the problems that way, but that's generally all they've offered for Superman to do. So this was the biggest example of that, and it didn't work. It was basically filler until Lex showed up. Again, if Superman was more than that and had better moments and characterization all throughout (and not at the expense of other characters) this would be a non-issue. But it's hyped by fandom as being a big moment, probably his biggest in the DCAU, and it's kind of lame.

Not helped by being immediately preceded by Batman outrunning the beams and Superman basically saying "Isn't Batman just great?"

But in the inverse, doesn't it show that Superman is NOT the UBER hero? Because the UBER hero would win. I mean, I don't necessarily agree with the statement, but the logic is exactly the same.

That and Darkseid being the uber villain is kind of moot, because it's the last episode and this has to be wrapped up in a few minutes anyway.

Granted, the way they did it is better than a straight up punch fest, but I'd probably drop "World of Cardboard" entirely.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Honestly, conceptually, the show is great. I wouldn't change anything, but rather just do more of what worked in it, and transplant what worked about the Batman shows to it.

* One and done set up and punchline epsides like "Two's a crowd", "The Prometheon", "The Late Mr. Kent", "Fun and Games", "My Girl", "Speed Demons", "Action Figures", "Solar Power", "Ghost in The Machine", and "Bizarro World" along with the more pulp or experimental episodes of Batman should be the standard for the show. Just throw us into an episodes, and allow connective tissue of continuity to be an Easter egg.

* The team was more interested in a pulp action set up, so I think they should've allowed themselves to go more in that direction even with their more retro modern style.

* More stories focused on villains and supporting cast with Superman/Clark being more of a punchline/plot device. I'm sure they'd have loved to do a pulpy Parry White story that sees him finally crack a story that had haunted him since his cub reporter days. Or a gang war between two villains (maybe Toyman and Prankster?)?

* His power levels were just fine honestly.

* Go darker earlier. Strange to say with Superman, but that's really it. The DCAU has always been at its best when it felt like an HBO drama that just happened to be animated. Put aside that you're doing Superman for a second, and just tell some stories with some real gravity to them earlier on.

* Get to the Darkseid stuff faster. This goes hand in hand with the go darker faster thing.

* More Kirby stuff all around.

Agreed and co-signed on all of this.

Disagree on this one:

* Give us the son of Superman and Lashina...but do it via cloning so you can force age the kid up, and get us to the confrontation and Crisis style death that likely undercuts "For The Man Who Has Everything" a bit. Perfect way to cap things off especially if Lois and Clark are finally getting closer if not dating. That dark reflection of what Clark was while he was controlled, but also still technically his kid in a way.

This concept would have been a terrible idea and I am glad that it never got made.

Having Superman get into a Proto-Damian Wayne (i.e. child from non-consensual brainwashed sex) situation would have been a dour way, while also having Superman be some kind of deadbeat (i.e. Superman Returns).

It would have slipped into Snyder territory albeit by inversion (based on recent revelations).

[marhawkman]

(about Superman+Lashina)

This concept would have been a terrible idea and I am glad that it never got made.

Having Superman get into a Proto-Damian Wayne (i.e. child from non-consensual brainwashed sex) situation would have been a dour way, while also having Superman be some kind of deadbeat (i.e. Superman Returns).

It would have slipped into Snyder territory albeit by inversion (based on recent revelations).

The series actually set it up in a very unsubtle way.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTu07Z8XMk8
All you need to say is that Lashina and Kal-El had "fun" as part of celebrating together. In a way... Darkseid gets what he wants.... indirectly. "But that's horrible!" Well... I feel the need to remind that the planet is called "Apokalips" for a reason.

Lashina raising a son Kal-El doesn't even know exists? It's NOT a good thing, in or out of universe. Which is the point. They're Super-Villains. Kal-El did what they wanted, not what HE wanted. But will forever remember just how much he enjoyed giving Lashina what Darkseid wanted.

[John Venus]

But in the inverse, doesn't it show that Superman is NOT the UBER hero? Because the UBER hero would win. I mean, I don't necessarily agree with the statement, but the logic is exactly the same.

Darkseid being the one villain that Superman can never have definitive, satisfying victory over is oddly poetic and fitting.


I wouldn't change the show much, I would just continue what they were doing with minor tweaks:

-Lois learns Clark's secret at some point.
-More reporter Clark and Clark being more upbeat in the general.
-More villains like Kryptonite Man, Black Zero could have been fun as well.
-Superman having to salvage his reputation after Darkseid brainwashed him feels like the right kind of challenge for him and one he can't punch his way out of.
-Better choreography. I don't mind him being weaker than previous incarnations but it needs to be consistent. His strength can't just fluctuate based on plot demands.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

(about Superman+Lashina)
The series actually set it up in a very unsubtle way.

The DCAU like all kids shows made by adults liked to slip in innuendos and sex jokes off-screen whenever possible. That's nothing.

It's not necessary that each one automatically leads to a babymama. The idea of a Superman-Lashina hookup as a future-Superman story revisiting down the line wasn't done with the conscious intention that it be a subplot down the road (since the idea of a Future Batman series wasn't yet greenlit when that was slipped in).

Lashina raising a son Kal-El doesn't even know exists?

Would have been a lame story.

I suppose it does show that Clark is a sucker for girls with the name L. And I guess the Lashina gag was done because they figured she's on Apokolips and she's hot, and she has the L initial, so why not.