Bob Iger diversity

[Agent Z]

This is arguably why more sexist and less diverse creators can cause problems in society - the classic idea of where “role models” can go wrong, and arguably one of the few that actually does seem to impact reality.

Could you elaborate on the bolded, please?

[Derek Metaltron]

Exactly this.

I've said it many times, not every villain needs to be "redeemed". A bad guy should just be a bad guy at times.

This is particularly a problem with female villains, which are rarer anyway, but then there seems to be this concept that because they are female they have to be redeemed and often 'saved by love', which comes off a tad sexist to me. (I don't mind that with some female villains but certainly not all of them)

With that said so, most of the best villains in fiction are those which straddle the line between hero and villain or at least whose motives for doing evil are understandable from certain perspectives. But then there are villains I like who are totally evil - Frieza in Dragonball Z for example. So maybe it's a complex thing.

[OopsIdiditagain]

This is particularly a problem with female villains, which are rarer anyway, but then there seems to be this concept that because they are female they have to be redeemed and often 'saved by love', which comes off a tad sexist to me. (I don't mind that with some female villains but certainly not all of them)

With that said so, most of the best villains in fiction are those which straddle the line between hero and villain or at least whose motives for doing evil are understandable from certain perspectives. But then there are villains I like who are totally evil - Frieza in Dragonball Z for example. So maybe it's a complex thing.

Most bad redemptions either feel too rushed or out of character.

[Derek Metaltron]

Most bad redemptions either feel too rushed or out of character.

This is one of the many reasons why I think Rise of Skywalker would have been better as two films instead of one - it would give them more time to do Kylo's redemption arc properly since they were decided to do so.

[WebLurker]

This is one of the many reasons why I think Rise of Skywalker would have been better as two films instead of one - it would give them more time to do Kylo's redemption arc properly since they were decided to do so.

Yeah, agreed. If Kylo's redemption had been better set up in Last Jedi, I think the twist would've worked better.

[CosmiComic]

This is particularly a problem with female villains, which are rarer anyway, but then there seems to be this concept that because they are female they have to be redeemed and often 'saved by love', which comes off a tad sexist to me. (I don't mind that with some female villains but certainly not all of them)

I've never noticed that.

[Agent Z]

This is particularly a problem with female villains, which are rarer anyway, but then there seems to be this concept that because they are female they have to be redeemed and often 'saved by love', which comes off a tad sexist to me. (I don't mind that with some female villains but certainly not all of them)

I would say that it isn't so much a female villains but rather white villains in general (often they're allowed complexity and redemption arcs that their non-white counterparts often lack).

[CosmiComic]

I would say that it isn't so much a female villains but rather white villains in general (often they're allowed complexity and redemption arcs that their non-white counterparts often lack).

That I've noticed more.

[godisawesome]

Could you elaborate on the bolded, please?

Basically, while I would argue that the idea that characters are *always* role models, and that *any* bad behavior will be imitated, is wrong....

...I actually do think the idea of subtle role modeling in his people interact with each other, particularly when done by protagonists, is actually somewhat true.

It’s part of the reason why I don’t think Joker being a full throated villain, or having Tony Stark suffer from alcoholism, or having Kylo Ren be a petulant villain is bad... but that stuff like how movies have protagonists interact with each other or their love interests can become problematic, or how they treat different antagonists and supporting characters as part of the structure of the story around them. People are savvy enough to not be the types of dumbasses to mimic behavior media is deliberately pointing out as flawed or vile...

...But they might think the way the hero interacts with those around him in the quiet moments shows them how they’re supposed to act, or in how the nuances of the heroes’ POV should shake their own.

Gender and race dynamics especially are more easily targeted by something like that. Double standards are usually reflected or reinforced by media - whenever a film or movie portrays predatory and assault-like behavior as acceptable for male and female characters in pursuit of romance, for example, or when a film portrays some people as being more inherently worthy of mercy or empathy. This is where a Comic or movie being maybe a bit too inclined to give the sexy villainous too much sympathy and a free pass to still be evil, or for a pretty white boy villain to have his angst be given more priority than a black man who’s genuinely suffered far more.

Now, it doesn’t mean that people “have” to read those messages into media, by the way, and many people don’t.

But it *does* often become somewhat exclusionary - not just to the demographic suffering a negative stereotype, but also anyone who is either unwilling to practice the double standard in their view or approach the story in the kind of shallow POV that can miss it.

Like... part of the reason I can’t take arguments that TLJ is a better film than TFA seriously is because you can’t approach TLJ with a greater estimation, understanding, and interpretation of Rey and Finn’s depth or of Kylo’s symbolism or depth - you either buy-in on a toxic bias, or choose to “exile” your previous investment and enjoyment of the characters in exchange for a shallower and monomaniacally focused story. It’s also why I and others can’t respect Scott Lobdell’s Teen Titans run - it often requires embracing some bad double standards or ignoring stuff like Tim and Cassie being sexually assaulted by Trigon and Raven’s influence, or accepting that Solstice should regard murder as a sign of love for Bar Torr. It’s even like Mary Wolfmann’s slut-shaming of underage Terra in earlier Titans material when he wanted Deathstroke to be sympathetic. Or the way some of Game Of Thrones handling or sex and rape became deeply problematic when they didn’t intend for it to do so, and had to try dealing with the fallout.

Sometimes it needs to be acknowledged that the same biases and prejudices that can make a story toxic for its time (since *some* amount of understanding for the era of publishing must be admitted) can also put a lid on how entertaining it can be.