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  1. #376
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    I forgot about Aresia and Tsukuri. Yeah, they were defintiely more than just 'teammates'. I thought Star Sapphire being okay with a world without men might have been a hint that she plays both teams. Hath-Set is another strong possibility since he was a parallel to Kragger.

    Normally, I'm hesitant to label what could be friendships as romance but Harley/Ivy from nearly everyone who has ever worked on them has been coded as a romance. Wish we could have seen more of Audrey and Diana. She was the one friend she had outside of the JL.


    Supergirl and Batgirl had a lot of subtext as well:





    Where did J'onn appear most recently?

    I like how in JLU he based his 'superhero' appearance off of Superman. I agree that for the modern age him being gender non forming person would be the way to go.
    Someone explain it to me because I don't really see any subtext between Kara and Barbara there? I don't remember the rest of the episode so maybe it was further in, but I don't really see anything other than "two kids idealize the other's life while bemoaning their own" which is pretty much a staple for any two characters from different backgrounds in fiction. You get the same thing when Robin first meets Superman and thinks everything about his surrogate uncle is so cool and compares it to how he and his surrogate dad live, usually unfavorably before Dick needs to show Bruce how he appreciates him or else Batman will be sad again. lol

    What am I too blind to see?



    I agree with J'onn and with most shapeshifters, though I do think that someone who becomes one need not necessarily become any more or less queer. As an example: if you're a lesbian Amazon and become a shapeshifter, it doesn't necessarily mean they'll no longer identify female and find women attractive and feel nothing sexually stimulating about others. I do believe it would be the cause of a lot of introspection and possibly a revelation about themselves, but not that it's a hard-and-fast rule that it happens.

    J'onn, however, comes from a different society full of shapeshifters and the most recent origin indicates that they pick a gender identity (and shape) when they reach a certain age, so it stands to reason that J'onn could simply be heterosexual and masculine, but I strongly doubt it. With J'onn, like with Diana, I suspect that until now his more queer tendencies were simply off panel or subdued because he longed for a little of that acceptance that his friend Superman was so freely given. J'onn's a strong dude, but his family and race were exterminated and he's old enough to carry the baggage. I wouldn't fault him for struggling to fully be himself if he thought it would cost him companionship. Loneliness is very successful at making people compromise themselves to be rid of it.

    I have a similar opinion on Starfire, who while it's possible she's straight, given what we know of Tamaran (or at least her perception of it through recollection), she's likely pan.

    Clayface as a closeted actor is the best read on him. If that's gay, bisexual or more broadly queer then so be it, but ever since I saw that episode as an adult (it flew over my head as a child) I can't see him any other way and Alan Tudyk riffing on it with his performance kind of solidified it.
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  2. #377
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Someone explain it to me because I don't really see any subtext between Kara and Barbara there? I don't remember the rest of the episode so maybe it was further in, but I don't really see anything other than "two kids idealize the other's life while bemoaning their own" which is pretty much a staple for any two characters from different backgrounds in fiction. You get the same thing when Robin first meets Superman and thinks everything about his surrogate uncle is so cool and compares it to how he and his surrogate dad live, usually unfavorably before Dick needs to show Bruce how he appreciates him or else Batman will be sad again. lol

    What am I too blind to see?
    Enh... I remember that. I didn't read it as romantic either. More a transition from a "casual acquaintance" to someone you actually like hanging out with.
    I have a similar opinion on Starfire, who while it's possible she's straight, given what we know of Tamaran (or at least her perception of it through recollection), she's likely pan.
    Hmmm one of the more vague allusions in Starfire's back story was that she was Blackfire's "personal slave". Whatever that was she didn't like. So it seemed liek they were hinting she preferred guys.
    Last edited by marhawkman; 10-23-2021 at 08:54 PM.

  3. #378
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    I agree with J'onn and with most shapeshifters, though I do think that someone who becomes one need not necessarily become any more or less queer. As an example: if you're a lesbian Amazon and become a shapeshifter, it doesn't necessarily mean they'll no longer identify female and find women attractive and feel nothing sexually stimulating about others. I do believe it would be the cause of a lot of introspection and possibly a revelation about themselves, but not that it's a hard-and-fast rule that it happens.

    J'onn, however, comes from a different society full of shapeshifters and the most recent origin indicates that they pick a gender identity (and shape) when they reach a certain age, so it stands to reason that J'onn could simply be heterosexual and masculine, but I strongly doubt it. With J'onn, like with Diana, I suspect that until now his more queer tendencies were simply off panel or subdued because he longed for a little of that acceptance that his friend Superman was so freely given. J'onn's a strong dude, but his family and race were exterminated and he's old enough to carry the baggage. I wouldn't fault him for struggling to fully be himself if he thought it would cost him companionship. Loneliness is very successful at making people compromise themselves to be rid of it.

    I have a similar opinion on Starfire, who while it's possible she's straight, given what we know of Tamaran (or at least her perception of it through recollection), she's likely pan.

    Clayface as a closeted actor is the best read on him. If that's gay, bisexual or more broadly queer then so be it, but ever since I saw that episode as an adult (it flew over my head as a child) I can't see him any other way and Alan Tudyk riffing on it with his performance kind of solidified it.
    This kind of makes me want to check out the Steve Orlando MM solo, although I didn't really hear a lot of good buzz about it. It seems like the only major thing he did with J'onn though was make him a corrupt cop before he came to Earth.

    I also recall James Tynion writing Clayface in his 'Tec run, although I don't think he came off that queer (he did seem to be in a relationship with a trans woman?).

  4. #379
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    This kind of makes me want to check out the Steve Orlando MM solo, although I didn't really hear a lot of good buzz about it. It seems like the only major thing he did with J'onn though was make him a corrupt cop before he came to Earth.
    Hmmm I do recall a comic from a long time ago that discussed Martian reproduction. But now that I think again it was mostly vague innuendo and not a lot of info. Basic gist of it was that the Saturnian race had similar biology to Martians, and were able to copulate with Martians due to that. What does this actually mean though? Ummm... we've seen J'Onn go completely bananas with shapeshifting... like merging with the floor, and stuff like that. Yeah... makes you wonder.

  5. #380
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    Enh... I remember that. I didn't read it as romantic either. More a transition from a "casual acquaintance" to someone you actually like hanging out with.Hmmm one of the more vague allusions in Starfire's back story was that she was Blackfire's "personal slave". Whatever that was she didn't like. So it seemed liek they were hinting she preferred guys.
    Because they're family, my brain immediately took a left turn and refused to read any sexual connotations there. She was enslaved by family. That's bad enough. Did Blackfire force her to perform foul deeds? Possibly, but I refuse to believe that something went on between the two of them. It isn't that I don't think DC at its shittiest would do so, but I simply refuse to allow that to be what happened so no fucking thanks.

    They probably were trying to find a roundabout way to imply she's heterosexual (and following it from implied rape instructed or perpetrated by her own family because DC stands for Definitely Classy), but I don't think that it's successful at indicating that. Regardless of who she finds sexually attractive, I think the circumstances would sour her mood when recollecting it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    This kind of makes me want to check out the Steve Orlando MM solo, although I didn't really hear a lot of good buzz about it. It seems like the only major thing he did with J'onn though was make him a corrupt cop before he came to Earth.

    I also recall James Tynion writing Clayface in his 'Tec run, although I don't think he came off that queer (he did seem to be in a relationship with a trans woman?).
    It's a mixed bag. I liked a lot of the world building, but I hate J'onn as a dirty cop. A lot of the cool shit about Martians is in the first issue, so read that on DCU Infinite if you're intrigued. Among other things, Martians used to manifest as primitive shapes before they expanded their horizons and baby Martians are essentially little green blobs that are rays of sunshine until they reach pseudo-puberty and assume their shapes, one outward for the world (big buff superhero J'onn form, for example) and one more private for yourself and family (his more alien form).

    While there's a LGBTQ+ subplot with Diane Meade and they don't touch a lot on J'onn's queerness, it doesn't take a genius to infer that a race that has to reach adolescence before adopting the gender identity they feel best suits them at that time (and can seemingly change in the future) likely isn't so rigid about gender identity. J'onn is portrayed pretty exclusively as masculine, but his sexual interests are not touched upon much. He loved his wife, who was femme, but it doesn't do much to say that J'onn is exclusively attracted to femme qualities because he's kind of mourning and figuring himself out with Meade no longer a romantic interest for him.

    Some cool ideas. Some not-so-great. I don't love Orlando as a writer, he's mostly miss for me, but this one was a light hit once I could get over that J'onn was a dirty cop, which I retcon out in my personal headcanon anyway.
    Last edited by Robanker; 10-23-2021 at 10:58 PM.
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  6. #381
    Bajuszbetyár The Invincible Beawulf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psy-lock View Post
    Looking back at the Golden Age GL book, I can see why they decided Alan Scott should come out
    hehh

    btw, Tynion wrote an excellent story focusing on Alan Scott's status as a closeted gay man & his secret relationship with Jimmy Henton in Green Lantern 80th Anniversary

    it's a beautiful tribute to Alan being depicted as a (green) light of hope
    Last edited by The Invincible Beawulf; 10-24-2021 at 05:29 AM.
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  7. #382
    Astonishing Member Fergus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goldrake View Post
    While I agree that her popularity is overestimated. She is meant to target a specific demo, but that demo doesn't translate into any box office push, overseas as you mentioned, had no impact either and it wasn't the R-rating. The idea that a character's sexuality means it will be embraced by all that demo is nonsense, and this applies not only to sexual orientation but to anything.
    I live in the UK and my 14 yr old and a bunch of her pals went to see BOP and SS2[they are huge Harley fans] Both times they had to buy Tickets for an age appropriate movies then sneak into the the R-rated Harley movies.
    That's about 10 tickets fares that went to other studios and not to the WB due to the ratings. Just got me wondering if that happens a lot.

    While I don't think harley's sexuality is a big reason why she likes Harley i do think that it's a huge selling point for her demo. They seem to be VERY much swayed by social media trends and obsessed with Equitable treatment.

    They are hugely into stuff like Yuri and Yaoi. Maybe there is a market for western comics to embrace stuff like that like manga and anime has done.

    The YA graphic market is doing quite well. That's a market that DC and marvel have yet to gain a big market share of.

  8. #383
    Astonishing Member Fergus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZuLuLu View Post
    Just looking at sales numbers on Comixology.

    Superman Issue #3 when from raking at number #66 to #31 and Issues #1 and #2 which were not in the top 100 are ranked #35 and #36 respectively.
    That's quite the jump.

    How are other Jon kent titles doing? Legion, Supersons, Future State, Superman Rebirth? I mean are people buying because Jon's fanbase has grown or are they buying because they just want the series where Superman gets a boyfriend? I feel that's also important.

  9. #384
    Astonishing Member Fergus's Avatar
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    DC should think of a way to get Midnighter and Apollo similar PR buzz. It's not going to beat Jon but any buzz is worth it.

    Get them trending.

  10. #385
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fergus View Post
    That's quite the jump.

    How are other Jon kent titles doing? Legion, Supersons, Future State, Superman Rebirth? I mean are people buying because Jon's fanbase has grown or are they buying because they just want the series where Superman gets a boyfriend? I feel that's also important.
    To be honest I was not focusing on other Jon's books but if there was an increase in sales it was not that significant.

    The Superman: Son of Kal-El books seems to be the ones that have mainly benefited from this announcement.

    On Comixology, all four issues are still ranked in the top 100, the lowest position at #51

    On Amazon, all issues are still in the top 20.

    So far I think most are buying the series where Superman gets a boyfriend, maybe Jon's fanbase will increase because the general feedback I have seen from new readers who pick up the first four issues because Jon is bi, is that they are enjoying the series so far. I think we have to see how well the series is doing around issue 10.

  11. #386
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fergus View Post
    DC should think of a way to get Midnighter and Apollo similar PR buzz. It's not going to beat Jon but any buzz is worth it.

    Get them trending.
    Midnight and Apollo were in the backup in Action Comics and have now joined Superman (Clark) in the main story.

    Actions Comics has been really good but has not been doing that well in sales so it needs all the buzz it can get.

  12. #387
    Astonishing Member Fergus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZuLuLu View Post
    To be honest I was not focusing on other Jon's books but if there was an increase in sales it was not that significant.

    The Superman: Son of Kal-El books seems to be the ones that have mainly benefited from this announcement.

    On Comixology, all four issues are still ranked in the top 100, the lowest position at #51

    On Amazon, all issues are still in the top 20.

    So far I think most are buying the series where Superman gets a boyfriend, maybe Jon's fanbase will increase because the general feedback I have seen from new readers who pick up the first four issues because Jon is bi, is that they are enjoying the series so far. I think we have to see how well the series is doing around issue 10.
    It's a start. the 2022 Supersons movie and Superman/Robin Special are well timed. Following up close enough with reminders of new and other material with the character that guides new/still curious readers to the variety of material available with Jon besides SoKL.

    Superman Rebirth and Supersons are such underrated gems and fun for all. I'd like more readers to discover these titles.

  13. #388
    Astonishing Member Fergus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZuLuLu View Post
    Midnight and Apollo were in the backup in Action Comics and have now joined Superman (Clark) in the main story.

    Actions Comics has been really good but has not been doing that well in sales so it needs all the buzz it can get.
    Might check out Action. Picked up Superman and the Authority and the Midnigter Annual. a lot of good books fly under the radar which is hard to see when so much crap get spotlighted simply due to penned by hottest current writer etc

  14. #389
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fergus View Post
    DC should think of a way to get Midnighter and Apollo similar PR buzz. It's not going to beat Jon but any buzz is worth it.

    Get them trending.
    they should appear in the upcoming superman cartoon

  15. #390
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    I was thing about the Legion recently. Should XS be queer in comics like her live action counterpart is on the Flash show?

    She never really had a boyfriend before. Just crushes.

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