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  1. #346
    Post Editing OCD Confuzzled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goldrake View Post
    teens are one of main problems in comics, the industry does not attract teens, they prefer manga. The reasons are multiple not down to a particular reason. While I always supported more inclusivity it is by no means a solution to all problems. Harley is a LGBT icon but it did not translate into any push at BO level, both BOP and SS2 turned to be flops.
    BOP and SS2 didn't need to be R-rated as that meant most of Harley Quinn's teen fanbase couldn't watch it in theatres. Also, Poison Ivy isn't even introduced in the new movies yet and neither is Harley's bisexuality in any meaningful manner, so her LGBT audiences didn't necessarily have to watch those films either. It's telling that the most successful Harley entertainment out right now is the animated show that puts Harley and Ivy's romance front and center.

  2. #347
    Mighty Member Goldrake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Confuzzled View Post
    BOP and SS2 didn't need to be R-rated as that meant most of Harley Quinn's teen fanbase couldn't watch it in theatres. Also, Poison Ivy isn't even introduced in the new movies yet and neither is Harley's bisexuality in any meaningful manner, so her LGBT audiences didn't necessarily have to watch those films either. It's telling that the most successful Harley entertainment out right now is the animated show that puts Harley and Ivy's romance front and center.
    I disagree, So HQ fans are all teens? or her fans will not watch her movies if she is not in a bisexual relationship?

    I know many LGBT people who aren't into comic characters or movies, Her comics don't sell that well either, they usually float above drop zone. If we have the impression that LGBT community alone will make up for lost readers in comics we are hiding our heads in the sand. As I said in a previous post I am all for more diversity, but I have no expectations that it will bring any significant change or stop comics decline. For years I heard people wanting a Black hero comic, we got Cyborg comic and it registered the most meagre sales. It wasn't supported by the people who wanted it in first place.
    The equation that certain animations do well so comics can do so, is a myth, how many comic characters did well in movies and the comic version is very low selling? Millions watch these movies and only a handful will ever buy the comic.

    Let's face it, teens are not keen into comic characters anymore, the reasons are various, if it was just one reason, the fix would be easy. They prefer manga and even Japanese animation, maybe we should start looking into why this happens and not the usual cliches because manga have a start and end. There very successful mangas that have been ongoing for years.

    In my opinion it is the quality, not knowing the market, what people like and not the constant rehash, undoing what a previous writer does, no real study done on what works in title A or X, writers who's personal views are thrown into the storylines, Writers that want to leave their mark and mess it all up. Or the overdone story in which hero X gets killed and than is brought back, lack of positivity, etc
    Last edited by Goldrake; 10-13-2021 at 12:39 PM.

  3. #348
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    Quote Originally Posted by Confuzzled View Post
    BOP and SS2 didn't need to be R-rated as that meant most of Harley Quinn's teen fanbase couldn't watch it in theatres. Also, Poison Ivy isn't even introduced in the new movies yet and neither is Harley's bisexuality in any meaningful manner, so her LGBT audiences didn't necessarily have to watch those films either. It's telling that the most successful Harley entertainment out right now is the animated show that puts Harley and Ivy's romance front and center.
    Here in Europe teens can see R-rated movies on their own without a parent or guardian. It seems that only in the USA teens have to go with an adult to watch R-rated movies. It's not the R-rating. Harley isn't popular as many think she is. People find her annoying.

  4. #349
    Mighty Member Goldrake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veni View Post
    Here in Europe teens can see R-rated movies on their own without a parent or guardian. It seems that only in the USA teens have to go with an adult to watch R-rated movies. It's not the R-rating. Harley isn't popular as many think she is. People find her annoying.
    While I agree that her popularity is overestimated. She is meant to target a specific demo, but that demo doesn't translate into any box office push, overseas as you mentioned, had no impact either and it wasn't the R-rating. The idea that a character's sexuality means it will be embraced by all that demo is nonsense, and this applies not only to sexual orientation but to anything.

  5. #350
    Post Editing OCD Confuzzled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goldrake View Post
    I know many LGBT people who aren't into comic characters or movies, Her comics don't sell that well either, they usually float above drop zone.
    And yet the Harley and Ivy: Eat, Bang, Kill show tie-in series went for second printing too. The Harley Quinn and Poison Ivy mini series a couple of years back also sold pretty well (even though the quality kept getting worse). Jimmy Palmiotti and Amanda Conner's popular Harley solo run also featured Ivy.

    The Harley Quinn animated show official Twitter account put out a poll a few months back asking fans if they preferred Harley and Ivy or Harley by herself and Harley and Ivy won out by a huge margin. So I'm starting to think Harley is more dependent on Poison Ivy for popularity than most people realize. It's the reason Paul Dini paired them up in BTAS in the first place. To help Harley have an identity and relationship outside of the Joker.

    And frankly, you can't blame LGBT folks for not caring about Harley if she's not with Ivy. She's an extreme case where her most well-known heterosexual relationship is incredibly toxic so it's understandable why people wouldn't want to stomach that. Not when stuff like the animated show is offering a loving and supportive alternate relationship. I also don't think writers have been successful in trying to crack the character when she's not with either Ivy or Joker, which is why solo Harley flops.
    Last edited by Confuzzled; 10-13-2021 at 02:27 PM.

  6. #351
    Post Editing OCD Confuzzled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goldrake View Post
    or her fans will not watch her movies if she is not in a bisexual relationship?
    Personally speaking, I'm really not all that into Harley unless she's with Ivy. And it's not just LGBT relationships either. I much prefer Spider-Man stories where Mary Jane/MJ is featured. Some people prefer romance in their stories as it ups the stakes and emotions. And Harley Quinn is a character supposed to be driven by emotion and her heart, so films like BOP and SS2 that don't have that don't fare well.

  7. #352
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    Just looking at sales numbers on Comixology.

    Superman Issue #3 when from raking at number #66 to #31 and Issues #1 and #2 which were not in the top 100 are ranked #35 and #36 respectively.
    Last edited by ZuLuLu; 10-13-2021 at 03:11 PM.

  8. #353
    Mighty Member Goldrake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Confuzzled View Post
    And yet the Harley and Ivy: Eat, Bang, Kill show tie-in series went for second printing too. The Harley Quinn and Poison Ivy mini series a couple of years back also sold pretty well (even though the quality kept getting worse). Jimmy Palmiotti and Amanda Conner's popular Harley solo run also featured Ivy.

    The Harley Quinn animated show official Twitter account put out a poll a few months back asking fans if they preferred Harley and Ivy or Harley by herself and Harley and Ivy won out by a huge margin. So I'm starting to think Harley is more dependent on Poison Ivy for popularity than most people realize. It's the reason Paul Dini paired them up in BTAS in the first place. To help Harley have an identity and relationship outside of the Joker.

    And frankly, you can't blame LGBT folks for not caring about Harley if she's not with Ivy. She's an extreme case where her most well-known heterosexual relationship is incredibly toxic so it's understandable why people wouldn't want to stomach that. Not when stuff like the animated show is offering a loving and supportive alternate relationship. I also don't think writers have been successful in trying to crack the character when she's not with either Ivy or Joker, which is why solo Harley flops.
    You make some interesting points, however I don't agree that because of animation that shows a kind of relationship, it will work in comics. Animations and movies are a different beast than comics. If we are to use the measure of what works in movies for example, certain comic book should sell 1000% more. Unfortunately it doesn't nor animations and movies attract new readership.

    If Harley is dependent on Ivy as you say, than they should focus more on Ivy, because she is the driving force.

    However I believe that HQ popularity is overestimated. Outside the USA, she ain't popular as people believe. As someone else mentioned overseas her movies did not do well, keep in mind that great part of the general audience is not aware of her relationships with Joker or Ivy. Only comic readers will know that. Therefore it was not because Ivy was not in the movie, many even in LGBT community view HQ as an immoral sick character.

    Quote Originally Posted by Confuzzled View Post
    Personally speaking, I'm really not all that into Harley unless she's with Ivy. And it's not just LGBT relationships either. I much prefer Spider-Man stories where Mary Jane/MJ is featured. Some people prefer romance in their stories as it ups the stakes and emotions. And Harley Quinn is a character supposed to be driven by emotion and her heart, so films like BOP and SS2 that don't have that don't fare well.
    I understand what you mean, But not all people like romance, there are many that hate romance in superheroes comics or movies, maybe a touch of it at most. What people seek is the adventure, action, the fantasy etc, I can't even count the many times I read "we don't want soap operas"

    Personally I always favored more personal relationships in comics but seems that the majority did not want that. Until lately we had the marriage ban in comics, while I disagreed, many had no problems with the concept heroes can't be happy in their private life. Yeah some did complain but it was just a minority.

  9. #354
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goldrake View Post
    You make some interesting points, however I don't agree that because of animation that shows a kind of relationship, it will work in comics. Animations and movies are a different beast than comics. If we are to use the measure of what works in movies for example, certain comic book should sell 1000% more. Unfortunately it doesn't nor animations and movies attract new readership.

    If Harley is dependent on Ivy as you say, than they should focus more on Ivy, because she is the driving force.

    However I believe that HQ popularity is overestimated. Outside the USA, she ain't popular as people believe. As someone else mentioned overseas her movies did not do well, keep in mind that great part of the general audience is not aware of her relationships with Joker or Ivy. Only comic readers will know that. Therefore it was not because Ivy was not in the movie, many even in LGBT community view HQ as an immoral sick character.



    I understand what you mean, But not all people like romance, there are many that hate romance in superheroes comics or movies, maybe a touch of it at most. What people seek is the adventure, action, the fantasy etc, I can't even count the many times I read "we don't want soap operas"

    Personally I always favored more personal relationships in comics but seems that the majority did not want that. Until lately we had the marriage ban in comics, while I disagreed, many had no problems with the concept heroes can't be happy in their private life. Yeah some did complain but it was just a minority.
    The general audience is well aware that Harley is the Joker's (ex-) girlfriend. They simply don't care about her but they love The Joker. Batman (1989), The Dark Knight (2008) and Joker (2019) proved that the Joker doesn't need Harley. The general audience loves the Joker because he is such and interesting, mysterious and intimidating character.

  10. #355
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    I'm one of those who find Harley annoying. Same with Deadpool. That type of humor is not my taste, and watching or reading them as a solo main character would be unbearable.

    That said, I like them as a side character who provides commentary, especially paired to a more serious character, like Batman, Spider-Man, Ivy, Croc, Canary, Ollie, and so on, because then I can enjoy their comedy as a part of a more balanced routine

    The romance I can go with or without, depend on how they handle it.

  11. #356
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    https://bleedingcool.com/comics/prin...son-of-kal-el/
    A third printing with Superman: Son Of Kal-El #1, and second printings for Superman: Son Of Kal-El #2, #3, and #4.
    0521DC823.jpg
    Last edited by ZuLuLu; 10-21-2021 at 04:50 AM.

  12. #357
    Spectacular Member Marko Lane's Avatar
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    I'm so thrilled that they're-printing #1 & #2. That way I don't have to wait for the TPB to read them
    Last edited by Marko Lane; 10-21-2021 at 04:10 AM.

  13. #358
    Incredible Member PennyDreadful's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. D. Guy View Post
    Pied Piper/Hartley Rathaway hasn't really been any sort of mainstay in the Flash comics since Barry was staying at Captain Singh's place in the new New 52 run. He's only made a couple brief cameos since Rebirth, so I am hesitant to really count him in the same way I would Tim Drake, Jon Kent, and Jackson Hyde. Not even Alan Scott, frankly, who's in a similar boat as Rathaway. And certainly not Wonder Woman herself (who, granted, has her own issues of her queerness being nominal).
    Piper has appeared in two anthologies, DCeased: Hope at World's End, and a Flash anthology. So he is getting more exposure these days. But yes, in the new 52 he was barely used at all. We still don't even know how he hooked up with Singh.

  14. #359
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    Quote Originally Posted by PennyDreadful View Post
    Piper has appeared in two anthologies, DCeased: Hope at World's End, and a Flash anthology. So he is getting more exposure these days. But yes, in the new 52 he was barely used at all. We still don't even know how he hooked up with Singh.
    I meant I think he was used more then than now, as he was actively apart of the run's supporting cast at the time, unlike now.

    Point being, I don't feel he's really comparable as a Jon for the Flash Family. Or even a Tim. Or Jackson with his current push.

  15. #360
    Spectacular Member Marko Lane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    This is freaking adorable I can't

    Aquaman The Becoming #1
    Indeed it is! So great to see! Wonder if Jackson will be stopping by there again..

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