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  1. #331
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny View Post
    Which Flash male hero is that? I can only think of Pied Piper but he's not a speedster.
    The Future State Flash, Jess Chambers, is non binary.
    Right now in the present, they are known as Kid Quick.

    For the Shazam family, I believe they’re hints that Pedro is queer too.

  2. #332
    Mighty Member Goldrake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fergus View Post
    Getting a 2nd print can be misleading. the actual numbers sold is the important data to look at. The 1st print shipped average numbers, performing lower than a few Bat [and bat fam ]titles.
    exactly those numbers don't tell that it hit the roof as someone stated. Now we have to see the numbers for issues in the months that follow. That will tell if it succeeded in attracting readers or lost them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fergus View Post
    Not sure why some people are upset with Jon being Bi. It doesn't change the character one bit.
    From what I read, most are not upset about Jon being Bi, but they are perceiving it as a threat that Clark Kent has been shelved. Already before this coming out some felt uncomfortable that he was being replaced. There are some who are claiming that the likes of Clark, Arthur Curry etc are being replaced with bi/gay characters. I don't thing its the case, honestly replacing characters who have been around for over 80years with new ones (straight or bi whatever), is not very clever. Obviously some have homophobic reasons for being upset.
    Others say its a stunt, pointing out that it is being mentioned that Superman comes out, while it is not specified that its Superman's son. Honestly it is being phrased ambiguously, we have to keep in mind that 99% of the general public have no idea about Jon Kent, superman for them is Clark.

  3. #333
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goldrake View Post
    exactly those numbers don't tell that it hit the roof as someone stated. Now we have to see the numbers for issues in the months that follow. That will tell if it succeeded in attracting readers or lost them.
    The thing is it will be easier to track if the books lose readers than if it gains readers because generally casual fans or non-comic book fans don't buy monthly floppies, they are more likely to buy digitally and then purchase trades in bookstores instead of comic book stores.

  4. #334
    Mighty Member Goldrake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZuLuLu View Post
    The thing is it will be easier to track if the books lose readers than if it gains readers because generally casual fans or non-comic book fans don't buy monthly floppies, they are more likely to buy digitally and then purchase trades in bookstores instead of comic book stores.
    yeah but seems floppies are what matters when it comes to sales, they determine if a book is successful or not, even if it gets canceled. At times DC people pester you with posts to pre-order and usually when they do that is because orders are low. If digital was an important share they would not do that.
    Also non comic book fan might be unaware that there is a plague called pirate sites, besides from what I see on Twitter many if not nearly all resort to those sites. I saw instances in which people tell newbies about these sites. At times a book is hardly available to buy online that they already post images from the issue and they are not some saved ones from their digital purchase.

  5. #335
    Mighty Member witchboy's Avatar
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    It seems strange to me that digital sales and trades aren't taken into account alongside floppies when considering the success of a book. Those are all generating revenue, and it does seem like floppies aren't the future of the market.

  6. #336
    Mighty Member Goldrake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by witchboy View Post
    It seems strange to me that digital sales and trades aren't taken into account alongside floppies when considering the success of a book. Those are all generating revenue, and it does seem like floppies aren't the future of the market.
    digital should be the future, but it is also through rips from digital that pirate sites are killing the industry. Better representation more inclusivity might help sales in short term but let us not fool ourselves, it will not bring any drastic increase that can avert the decline of comics. Nor will piracy end. Year after year with exception of a handful of titles, the sales are drying up.

  7. #337
    Mighty Member witchboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goldrake View Post
    digital should be the future, but it is also through rips from digital that pirate sites are killing the industry. Better representation more inclusivity might help sales in short term but let us not fool ourselves, it will not bring any drastic increase that can avert the decline of comics. Nor will piracy end. Year after year with exception of a handful of titles, the sales are drying up.
    That's something that is impacting all media.
    I don't have an answer for how to succeed around that. I know DC makes more money off of merchandising and movies/shows than they do the actual comics. If they ever were sure they could keep the movies and shows coming in without the comics I expect they'd be quicker to cancel comics. It's hard to believe someday the old school monthly comics could go away. I've worried they'd move more towards continuity free stand alone graphic novels.

  8. #338
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    Quote Originally Posted by witchboy View Post
    It seems strange to me that digital sales and trades aren't taken into account alongside floppies when considering the success of a book. Those are all generating revenue, and it does seem like floppies aren't the future of the market.
    Digital sales and trades are taken into account but generally it is not large enough to sustain a book. Before the pandemic digital sales was about 10% since the it have grown to about 20% .I don't know what the percentage number is for trades.

    However, some books have manage to stick around for a while with low floppies numbers due to their digital and trade numbers.
    Ms Marvel
    Moon Girl
    Squirrel Girl
    Hulk- Amadeus Cho
    Runaways

    Even Ice-Man's book was able to get a second volume due to trade sales.

    Also a few of these book had Scholastic deals which helped.
    Last edited by ZuLuLu; 10-12-2021 at 08:40 AM.

  9. #339
    Mighty Member witchboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZuLuLu View Post
    Digital sales and trades are taken into account but generally it is not large enough to sustain a book. Before the pandemic digital sales was about 10% since the it have grown to about 20% .I don't know what the percentage number is for trades.

    However, some books have manage to stick around for a while with low floppies number due to their digital and trade numbers.
    Ms Marvel
    Moon Girl
    Squirrel Girl
    Hulk- Amadeus Cho
    Ranaways

    Even Ice-Man's book was able to get a second volume due to trade sales.

    Also a few of these book had Scholastic deals which helped.
    Those all seem like books that would be aimed at younger readers, which does suggest that digital and trades are the future.
    I expect it's the same trends that impact all print media. People just don't need to have physical media the way they used to.

  10. #340
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    Quote Originally Posted by witchboy View Post
    Those all seem like books that would be aimed at younger readers, which does suggest that digital and trades are the future.
    I expect it's the same trends that impact all print media. People just don't need to have physical media the way they used to.
    Yep, most of these books were aimed at teens and tweens. Squirrel Girl and Runaways were aimed at more of a young adult audience.

    I feel with both Jon and Tim coming out, I feel like DC knows that if their comic books fail they can put them in a graphic novel, YA books, or webtoons where they are more likely to succeed.

  11. #341
    Mighty Member Goldrake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZuLuLu View Post
    Digital sales and trades are taken into account but generally it is not large enough to sustain a book. Before the pandemic digital sales was about 10% since the it have grown to about 20% .I don't know what the percentage number is for trades.

    However, some books have manage to stick around for a while with low floppies number due to their digital and trade numbers.
    Ms Marvel
    Moon Girl
    Squirrel Girl
    Hulk- Amadeus Cho
    Ranaways

    Even Ice-Man's book was able to get a second volume due to trade sales.

    Also a few of these book had Scholastic deals which helped.
    seems trades are not taken into account, books that get canceled do get trades after the cancelation.

    As for the digital share depends if its related let say to certain titles. Lets say If Batman has the lion share of those numbers, the sales for the rest will have a minimal impact on low selling books. The books you mentioned could have survived because the costs to publish them weren't that big, so the sales threshold limit is lower. But certain books have bigger costs especially with creative teams. You can still have low cost creative teams, but that will also determine the quality, and that effects the sales.


    Quote Originally Posted by witchboy View Post
    That's something that is impacting all media.
    I don't have an answer for how to succeed around that. I know DC makes more money off of merchandising and movies/shows than they do the actual comics. If they ever were sure they could keep the movies and shows coming in without the comics I expect they'd be quicker to cancel comics. It's hard to believe someday the old school monthly comics could go away. I've worried they'd move more towards continuity free stand alone graphic novels.
    the impact on comics of piracy is bigger, because comics are a much smaller industry, losing a reader is like losing 20 movie viewers. If the floppy wasn't profitable anymore they would have stopped it, digital on the other hand reaches overseas, but not everyone reads english. In some countries floppies are translated into the language of that particular country but it takes ages for this to happen about six months.
    As for DC making money from movies yeah while it lasts, but sooner of later there will be a fatigue of CBM. So they might make hay while the sun shines. Besides most of DC merchandise is based on Batman.
    So the possibility as you say of continuity free novels is not that far fetched. Even in terms of manga becoming even more dominant in the market.

  12. #342
    Mighty Member Goldrake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZuLuLu View Post
    Yep, most of these books were aimed at teens and tweens. Squirrel Girl and Runaways were aimed at more of a young adult audience.

    I feel with both Jon and Tim coming out, I feel like DC knows that if their comic books fail they can put them in a graphic novel, YA books, or webtoons where they are more likely to succeed.

    teens are one of main problems in comics, the industry does not attract teens, they prefer manga. The reasons are multiple not down to a particular reason. While I always supported more inclusivity it is by no means a solution to all problems. Harley is a LGBT icon but it did not translate into any push at BO level, both BOP and SS2 turned to be flops.
    The issue with comics in my opinion is the quality, the constant rehash, lack of creativity, confusing timelines. Now to you and me who have a knowledge how comic timelines work and what's what, is normal. But any potential new readers is pushed away. Besides over reliance by DC on certain characters, mainly Batman and few effort put into the others.

  13. #343
    Astonishing Member Darkspellmaster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fergus View Post
    Not sure why some people are upset with Jon being Bi. It doesn't change the character one bit.

    I think it funny that there's 2 RobinXSuperboy ships and DC took one from each. Lol
    It's not that they're upset with Bi Jon, it's that they're upset that they had to age him up and abuse him to get to the point where they made him bi, and probably for the express purpose for allowing him a more physical relationship with Jay because...who knows.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZuLuLu View Post
    Same, it's basically trolling at this point.
    Yup I would say so, because I don't see the batbooks letting Tim hook up with Jon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldrake View Post
    From what I read, most are not upset about Jon being Bi, but they are perceiving it as a threat that Clark Kent has been shelved. Already before this coming out some felt uncomfortable that he was being replaced. There are some who are claiming that the likes of Clark, Arthur Curry etc are being replaced with bi/gay characters. I don't thing its the case, honestly replacing characters who have been around for over 80years with new ones (straight or bi whatever), is not very clever. Obviously some have homophobic reasons for being upset.
    Others say its a stunt, pointing out that it is being mentioned that Superman comes out, while it is not specified that its Superman's son. Honestly it is being phrased ambiguously, we have to keep in mind that 99% of the general public have no idea about Jon Kent, superman for them is Clark.
    This is a good explanation. And for some of us it's not even the issue of Clark being replaced. There can be two supermen, just like there's now what three spider-men running around? For Jon fans it's more "You did some really dumb things to a good character for something you could have done by leaving him be 13 or 14." and against the age up. For Clark fans I think it's the issue of Jon taking over before he's had time to really establish who he is as a character. Unlike say, Dick, who was his own character for years before becoming Batman, for some Clark fans it doesn't make sense. Like Steel or even Conner would make more sense, or Mon El or Kara, since they've had more time to establish who they are. I'm sure most would be fine with Jon if there was more time to dive into him as a character in this time, but Bendis flung him into the future. So yeah any growth that could have been done naturally and more in character was killed off.

    I blame online writers for that. Better to use a clickbait head line to get attention. And there in lies part of the issue. Jon needed more time to develop and get notice. At least another few years as a kid or 13/14 before you go throwing him into being an "Adult".

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldrake View Post
    teens are one of main problems in comics, the industry does not attract teens, they prefer manga. The reasons are multiple not down to a particular reason. While I always supported more inclusivity it is by no means a solution to all problems. Harley is a LGBT icon but it did not translate into any push at BO level, both BOP and SS2 turned to be flops.
    The issue with comics in my opinion is the quality, the constant rehash, lack of creativity, confusing timelines. Now to you and me who have a knowledge how comic timelines work and what's what, is normal. But any potential new readers is pushed away. Besides over reliance by DC on certain characters, mainly Batman and few effort put into the others.
    Part of the issue is that Manga is not a long on going, or rather it's one writer with one story. Teens like reading about Teens or adventures that are fun. BOP wasn't well advertised to be honest and too many people didn't understand what it was supposed to be about. Birds of Prey typically is connected to Babs, Dinah, and Huntress, with Steph, Cass, Harper, and Other ladies as additional help to the team. So seeing it lead by Harley is confusing to a lot of people. It's like having a Wonder Woman movie and then putting in Catwoman as the lead. It confuses the GA. So yeah Box office numbers went down. SS2 had the problem of not having the original group there, lesser known characters, and the issue of what was going on. Trailers didn't help that much either. It did better than one that's for sure.

    Time lines aren't that confusing, the problem is the consistency. You keep moving writers and switching them all the time, it becomes less easy to have a voice for the characters. Physical books are having an up tick. You want teens to read you have to give them stories they can connect to. Off the top of my head:

    YJ did well because of the fact that Peter David treated them as young people and didn't try to put them in college or give them unusual drama that is more for adults.
    Robin is doing well because it's a tournament arc and Damian is being treated as a kid.
    SuperSons did well because you had things to bounce the two personalities off of
    Princess Amathyst did well because of how the writers wrote it as a fantasy story for young girls
    Gotham Academy did well because it was a YA mystery story.

    There's a lot you can do for stories for teens to get them into the books off the top of my head:

    YJ reboot with Peter David back at the helm. Let him take on the characters

    Young All Stars: Either De age Jon or bring back in Chris Kent as the superboy there, use the younger teens (Damian, Iris West, Jae West, Teen Lantern) as the leads to create a global story or like YJ let them have fun stories of them learning to be heros.

    GemWorld: Make it more like Sailor moon, it's a magic girl story, focus on the wild aspects of that.

    Jinny Hex and other Western Characters on a cross country road trip and dealing with some sort of mystery

    Gotham Academy

    Have an intern story at the Daily planet, or use Jimmy as your MC.

    A school setting on Oa with a lot of possible future lantern candidates, Or something with different houses with the younger lanterns learning based on the colors.

    You can do a lot for teens who read Manga. You just have to know the stories that they like and enjoy reading. Part of the issue is that a lot of the writers that they have right now are not writing fun stories. People like reading more happy and family Batman, they like family Clark and Lois, they like Wally and Linda with their kids. They want the family dynamic.

  14. #344
    Mighty Member Goldrake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkspellmaster View Post

    This is a good explanation. And for some of us it's not even the issue of Clark being replaced. There can be two supermen, just like there's now what three spider-men running around? For Jon fans it's more "You did some really dumb things to a good character for something you could have done by leaving him be 13 or 14." and against the age up. For Clark fans I think it's the issue of Jon taking over before he's had time to really establish who he is as a character. Unlike say, Dick, who was his own character for years before becoming Batman, for some Clark fans it doesn't make sense. Like Steel or even Conner would make more sense, or Mon El or Kara, since they've had more time to establish who they are. I'm sure most would be fine with Jon if there was more time to dive into him as a character in this time, but Bendis flung him into the future. So yeah any growth that could have been done naturally and more in character was killed off.
    Many Clark fans are pissed that he has been shelved for good, Jon is from now onwards Superman. I don't see it happening, but honestly I am getting confused about this. The signals some at DC are sending tend to imply that. If they intend to replace characters like Clark kent, Arthur Curry etc I believe its madness, some sort of 5G delayed. Some fear Superman would end like the Barry vs Wally with Jon vs Clark, that is tribal fandom within the same title, like with Green Lantern and Flash. It is not in this manner that you bring back lapsed fans nor new ones.


    Quote Originally Posted by Darkspellmaster View Post


    You can do a lot for teens who read Manga. You just have to know the stories that they like and enjoy reading. Part of the issue is that a lot of the writers that they have right now are not writing fun stories. People like reading more happy and family Batman, they like family Clark and Lois, they like Wally and Linda with their kids. They want the family dynamic.
    I agree with what you say but you know DC, family dynamic has never been their strong point. We have gone from heroes can't be happy to suddenly opening to more representation. Also if Clark and Lois are being pensioned off as some are claiming, I don't see that happening!!

    The writers they have currently aren't that good, story telling is a mess. Infinite Frontier hasn't delivered, seems a ship without direction, at least rebirth or New52 had an original concept although they strayed away. Rebirth at its launch caused enthusiasm as rarely seen with fans, nowadays the mood with fans is of growing apathy

  15. #345
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psy-lock View Post
    Yeah, I meant Pied Piper.
    Pied Piper/Hartley Rathaway hasn't really been any sort of mainstay in the Flash comics since Barry was staying at Captain Singh's place in the new New 52 run. He's only made a couple brief cameos since Rebirth, so I am hesitant to really count him in the same way I would Tim Drake, Jon Kent, and Jackson Hyde. Not even Alan Scott, frankly, who's in a similar boat as Rathaway. And certainly not Wonder Woman herself (who, granted, has her own issues of her queerness being nominal).

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