Gay Super Villains

[Nyssane]

Yeah. It's a weird argument that always comes up. This fear that LGBT characters will be defined by being LGBT. I can't think of any characters who actually are, though. It's not about characters being defined by their sexuality, it's about seeing that sexuality represented. If, say, Shocker came out as gay, then he'd still be the Shocker. All his previous stuff would still be there, and he'd be the same person. It would just mean that he could also have a boyfriend.

Any time a character isn't the "default" of a straight white male, there are people who talk about not wanting that character "defined" by what makes them difference. I feel like this has a couple problems. First, it makes people a little more cautious about supporting characters who aren't straight white men. Second, there's a bit of an uncomfortable undertone to it that differences should be minimized. That a character being gay shouldn't really be brought up. That a black character should basically be a white character with a tan. That a woman shouldn't draw attention to the fact that she's a woman. It comes across as encouraging the assumption of "straight white man" as the default that should be aspired to.

Amazing post! <3

[norj]

Also, I may be confused but doesn't the Black Cat say she hasn't had a date - male or female - for a while in The Evil That Men Do (by Kevin Smith though...)

The MC2 version is bi and they decide to make canon in the 616 verse as well.

[ChronoRogue]

Seeing the same thing all the time is boring.

LGBT sexualities give a different view of how a villain might interact with other male/female villains or even male/female heroes. I'd like a male villian to play the "catwoman" or "blackcat" role to a female or gay male superhero for once. That's something we don't see a lot of.

[Peter Porker]

Sexuality matters to those that want it to matter. I never introduced my father as oh, this is my Gay dad. or my Step son has my gay son. I introduced them as my father and son. I have yet to meet anyone that introduced their child/sibling/friend/parent/etc as the Gay one. It's not like we go around saying, The Black Man Luke Cage or the androgynous Loki or the hetero couple Reed and Sue or the gay hero Northstar.

^LMAO^ I totally agree. I want well rounded and complex characters that just happen to be LGBT and are NOT defined by their sexuality.

Okay, that isn't the point at all. Of course sexuality shouldn't matter in real life and you do not say "this is my gay father", but I wasn't talking about that. I was talking about institutionalized homophobia that also has an effect on the media. I was simply talking about how representation in media is important, because society still has it's issues with the LGBTQ community.
It's cool when people don't care about the sexuality of a character, because it SHOULD NOT matter. But since we live in a world where institutionalized oppression is still a thing, we can't pretend like it doesn't matter.

I agree with That937, though. I don't like when there's a homosexual couple that has no interesting story besides being a homosexual couple. It's not like the sexuality of heterosexual characters is what makes them interesting. In fact most people assume all characters are straight until proven otherwise, which is also wrong.

[Pat Thomas]

Yeah. It's a weird argument that always comes up. This fear that LGBT characters will be defined by being LGBT. I can't think of any characters who actually are, though. It's not about characters being defined by their sexuality, it's about seeing that sexuality represented. If, say, Shocker came out as gay, then he'd still be the Shocker. All his previous stuff would still be there, and he'd be the same person. It would just mean that he could also have a boyfriend.

Any time a character isn't the "default" of a straight white male, there are people who talk about not wanting that character "defined" by what makes them difference. I feel like this has a couple problems. First, it makes people a little more cautious about supporting characters who aren't straight white men. Second, there's a bit of an uncomfortable undertone to it that differences should be minimized. That a character being gay shouldn't really be brought up. That a black character should basically be a white character with a tan. That a woman shouldn't draw attention to the fact that she's a woman. It comes across as encouraging the assumption of "straight white man" as the default that should be aspired to.

Do you think everybody here should be required to expose their sexuality? I mean, is there a reason everybody should, other than getting a count? What purpose would
it serve here, and what purpose does it serve in comics that are mostly good guy vs bad guy? We aren't talking about romantic comics here. They are more action/
adventure with a splash of life thrown in, not explorations of intimate relationships. The small amount of personal content is only there to add a sense of realism to the books.
It's not the central idea of this type of comic; the action is. Everything else is window dressing. I don't see why anybody would even be satisfied if a long-time character in
one of these books is just gay all of the sudden, when it's obvious that it's pandering and the easy way to temporarily appease some people. It doesn't solve anything, and
alienates the groups on these boards even more. Just one more thing to argue back and forth about.

[Tiamatty]

I agree with That937, though. I don't like when there's a homosexual couple that has no interesting story besides being a homosexual couple. It's not like the sexuality of heterosexual characters is what makes them interesting. In fact most people assume all characters are straight until proven otherwise, which is also wrong.

But which gay couples have no interesting story beyond that? Wiccan and Hulkling just make a really nice couple, and Gillen did some really good work exploring it. Northstar and Kyle have some of the same problems straight couples have - their sexuality doesn't enter into it. Julie Power and Karolina Dean haven't been seen much as a couple, but they seem like a pretty adorable pair. I don't read DC, but I've heard good things about the relationships Batwoman's had.

So who are these gay couples you're talking about?

[Tiamatty]

Do you think everybody here should be required to expose their sexuality? I mean, is there a reason everybody should, other than getting a count? What purpose would
it serve here, and what purpose does it serve in comics that are mostly good guy vs bad guy? We aren't talking about romantic comics here. They are more action/
adventure with a splash of life thrown in, not explorations of intimate relationships. The small amount of personal content is only there to add a sense of realism to the books.
It's not the central idea of this type of comic; the action is. Everything else is window dressing. I don't see why anybody would even be satisfied if a long-time character in
one of these books is just gay all of the sudden, when it's obvious that it's pandering and the easy way to temporarily appease some people. It doesn't solve anything, and
alienates the groups on these boards even more. Just one more thing to argue back and forth about.

Plenty of comics are more about exploring characters and their relationships (romantic or otherwise) than the action. So the argument that they're "mostly good guy vs. bad guy" doesn't ring true to me. The comics that are "mostly good guy vs. bad guy" are, to me, among the most boring comics out there. It's what I dislike about Hickman's Avengers.

A character being outed just for the sake of outing them would be unlikely to satisfy anyone, true. It would need to be something that gets followed up on, the same as any reveal about any character needs to be followed up on. If the Shocker were revealed as having a kid, it would be something that should get some attention. On the other hand, there actually are characters who could be revealed as gay without it being a big deal at all, with readers just going, "Oh, yeah, that actually makes sense."

At the end of the day, what it comes down to is representation. Everyone deserves to be able to find people in comics who are like them, who reflect their experiences. And that even includes having villains who reflect their experiences. A bad guy they can root for because, hey, "he's just like me."

[suss2it]

Yeah but we definitely need more lgbt heroes than villians.

The problem with more gay super villians is I almost always find them more relatable and more sympathetic than the heterosexual guy beating the sh*t out of him

So? What's wrong with relating with the villain?

Do you think everybody here should be required to expose their sexuality? I mean, is there a reason everybody should, other than getting a count? What purpose would
it serve here, and what purpose does it serve in comics that are mostly good guy vs bad guy? We aren't talking about romantic comics here. They are more action/
adventure with a splash of life thrown in, not explorations of intimate relationships. The small amount of personal content is only there to add a sense of realism to the books.
It's not the central idea of this type of comic; the action is. Everything else is window dressing. I don't see why anybody would even be satisfied if a long-time character in
one of these books is just gay all of the sudden, when it's obvious that it's pandering and the easy way to temporarily appease some people. It doesn't solve anything, and
alienates the groups on these boards even more. Just one more thing to argue back and forth about.

Have you ever read a Spider-Man comic? His love life is constantly explored in great detail. Superman too. Matter of fact he has a book about just that. And yeah changing long term characters isn't the best solution but since the big 2 are mostly averse to creating new characters its one of the solutions we're left with.

[Silvermoth]

Nothing's wrong with relating to the villain but I want some heroes I can relate to too

[Joe Acro]

So? What's wrong with relating with the villain?

Have you ever read a Spider-Man comic? His love life is constantly explored in great detail. Superman too. Matter of fact he has a book about just that. And yeah changing long term characters isn't the best solution but since the big 2 are mostly averse to creating new characters its one of the solutions we're left with.

While I don't necessarily agree with Pat's phrasing, he does bring up an interesting point.

Let's take Electro as an example. Comics rarely spend any time on Max Dillon as a person. He is, likely 99% time, Electro. He's committing a crime or working for hire or causing some other sort of problem and he needs to be dealt with. Is there much of a point to us knowing his sexuality or, really, much about him at all?

[The Overlord]

While I don't necessarily agree with Pat's phrasing, he does bring up an interesting point.

Let's take Electro as an example. Comics rarely spend any time on Max Dillon as a person. He is, likely 99% time, Electro. He's committing a crime or working for hire or causing some other sort of problem and he needs to be dealt with. Is there much of a point to us knowing his sexuality or, really, much about him at all?

Well it could make him more interesting, make him seem like a human being, rather then just a stereotypical villain. Look at say Mr. Freeze, they made him more interesting when they gave him a wife, he went from a one dimensional villain to an actual fully fleshed out character. Why do most super villains have to be guys who seem have no life outside of robbing banks and trying to kill the hero, isn't that kinda of boring after 50 years? I would supporting exploring villains in relationships more often in general, be it gay or straight, it makes them seem more like real people and less like cartoonish bad guys. Heck didn't Stan Lee introduce the idea that Marvel character should feel like normal human beings, why should that apply only to the heroes and not the villains?

[Peter Porker]

But which gay couples have no interesting story beyond that? Wiccan and Hulkling just make a really nice couple, and Gillen did some really good work exploring it. Northstar and Kyle have some of the same problems straight couples have - their sexuality doesn't enter into it. Julie Power and Karolina Dean haven't been seen much as a couple, but they seem like a pretty adorable pair. I don't read DC, but I've heard good things about the relationships Batwoman's had.

So who are these gay couples you're talking about?

Good that you're bringing up Wiccan and Hulkling, because despite my wish for representation of the LGBTQ community, I have zero interest in these two. Don't get me wrong, I think it's awesome that they exist and I have nothing bad to say about their characters.
The problem is that the focus is on their relationship and sexuality most of the time while every other aspect about them is disposable or simply not equally important, which is something that doesn't matter with supposedly heterosexual characters.
When I read comics with them, I feel like instead of reading a story I'm only reading this sentence over and over again: "Look, they are gay. We made a gay couple here."
I'm not trying to be harsh, I appreciate that Marvel is trying. I simply am not that interested in them, because this is the feeling I get about them.
Another good example is Batwoman. A lot of fans complained that suddenly everything was about her sexuality and that the story suffered from that.
I can't speak for them, because I didn't read Batwoman, but from what I read I get what they're saying and can only agree.

[krazijoe]

Good that you're bringing up Wiccan and Hulkling, because despite my wish for representation of the LGBTQ community, I have zero interest in these two. Don't get me wrong, I think it's awesome that they exist and I have nothing bad to say about their characters.
The problem is that the focus is on their relationship and sexuality most of the time while every other aspect about them is disposable or simply not equally important, which is something that doesn't matter with supposedly heterosexual characters.
When I read comics with them, I feel like instead of reading a story I'm only reading this sentence over and over again: "Look, they are gay. We made a gay couple here."
I'm not trying to be harsh, I appreciate that Marvel is trying. I simply am not that interested in them, because this is the feeling I get about them.
Another good example is Batwoman. A lot of fans complained that suddenly everything was about her sexuality and that the story suffered from that.
I can't speak for them, because I didn't read Batwoman, but from what I read I get what they're saying and can only agree.

One thing I didn't care for was the Terry Berg storyline in Green Lantern. DC and Judd Winick went for shock value to boost sales. I despise Judd back to his Real World days so maybe that has something to do with it.

[Thad937]

Good that you're bringing up Wiccan and Hulkling, because despite my wish for representation of the LGBTQ community, I have zero interest in these two. Don't get me wrong, I think it's awesome that they exist and I have nothing bad to say about their characters.
The problem is that the focus is on their relationship and sexuality most of the time while every other aspect about them is disposable or simply not equally important, which is something that doesn't matter with supposedly heterosexual characters.
When I read comics with them, I feel like instead of reading a story I'm only reading this sentence over and over again: "Look, they are gay. We made a gay couple here."
I'm not trying to be harsh, I appreciate that Marvel is trying. I simply am not that interested in them, because this is the feeling I get about them.
Another good example is Batwoman. A lot of fans complained that suddenly everything was about her sexuality and that the story suffered from that.
I can't speak for them, because I didn't read Batwoman, but from what I read I get what they're saying and can only agree.

I never got that impression that Hulkling and Wiccan were poster LGBT characters during Allan Heinberg's run on Young Avengers. I am guessing that your referring to Kieron Gillen's run? I hadn't read much of that, but I loved the surprise twist with Prodigy.

[Tiamatty]

Good that you're bringing up Wiccan and Hulkling, because despite my wish for representation of the LGBTQ community, I have zero interest in these two. Don't get me wrong, I think it's awesome that they exist and I have nothing bad to say about their characters.
The problem is that the focus is on their relationship and sexuality most of the time while every other aspect about them is disposable or simply not equally important, which is something that doesn't matter with supposedly heterosexual characters.
When I read comics with them, I feel like instead of reading a story I'm only reading this sentence over and over again: "Look, they are gay. We made a gay couple here."
I'm not trying to be harsh, I appreciate that Marvel is trying. I simply am not that interested in them, because this is the feeling I get about them.
Another good example is Batwoman. A lot of fans complained that suddenly everything was about her sexuality and that the story suffered from that.
I can't speak for them, because I didn't read Batwoman, but from what I read I get what they're saying and can only agree.

I haven't read the original Young Avengers stuff. But that's not the impression I got from Children's Crusade. And it sure as hell wasn't what I got from Gillen's run - he treated them the same way heterosexual couples are treated.

But what would you give as an example of an LGBT character or couple who was handled well?