How would you feel if Scarface became a supernatural character?

[Timothy Hunter]

Reading this, it got me to thinking - how many of Batman's enemies have gone from unpowered to powered? Ivy, of course. And I think I read Harley has some enhancements now? Clayface, technically, though that was a long time ago. Killer Moth (though again, I'm uncertain of current status quo).

I also vote against any supernatural aspect of Scarface.

When did Poison Ivy get powers?

[John Venus]

I prefer the ambiguity in whether it's a supernatural or Wesker is just controlling it. I don't think the supernatural angle works much as an explanation for why Scarface is able to do what he does whereas if you focus on why Wesker is channeling his criminal intent through a puppet you open up a rich vein of story telling.

[prepmaster]

When did Poison Ivy get powers?

I believe it was in Secret Origins in 1989. Before that, she had used weapons & other gadgets.

Technically Batman has faced meta human villains, magician and supernatural threats like werewolves, vampires. But they dont become iconic.

People like seeing Batman fighting Deathstroke and that guy has healing factor and thinks faster than normal humans. Bane has venom, Killer Croc i believe has a healing factor.

Ventriloquist works better as a crazy dude that needs a puppet - Scarface as an outlet for his darker thoughts. Sort of like Two-Face with his coin.

[Tzigone]

I believe it was in Secret Origins in 1989. Before that, she had used weapons & other gadgets.

I actually prefer that setup. I was first introduced through B:TAS. I'm cool with the environmental angle, but I do like her using tools instead of powers. And I like the ruthlessness and her exploiting plants, too. Sacrificing individuals for her greater goal, and so forth.

Technically Batman has faced meta human villains, magician and supernatural threats like werewolves, vampires. But they dont become iconic.

Oh sure. My specific question was individuals that started off without powers and were given powers. Usually as a method to reinvent them as more impressive. Then I'd shift over to those that had powers but got powerups. I'm on record as not being particularly fond of powerups for heroes, but I'm now thinking about whether I share the same opinions about villains. I don't really think about villains all that much. I understand if the hero gets more powers the villain may have to get (more) powers to "keep up" and vice versa. But with Batman an unpowered superhero, it's intriguing to explore how often this has happened to his villains, so I asked since I didn't know. Though I admit, it's a bit of a tangent for the thread.

Thanks for the info on Ivy's power change. I've read earlier stuff with Ivy and later stuff, but nothing from maybe maybe late 70s through late 90s.

[prepmaster]

I actually prefer that setup. I was first introduced through B:TAS. I'm cool with the environmental angle, but I do like her using tools instead of powers.

B:TAS Ivy would get wrecked by Batman if she only uses her crossbrow. Batman has trained himself to disarm opponents with guns. Batman grappling gun alone would shoot faster than her crossbow. Batarangs would also be good enough to do the job. Thats not mentioning Batman's standard gears like Flashbang and other stuffs. Even with her mutant plants, Batman would just spam herbicide & incendiary grenades. If Ivy had been more of a gadget user, i guess she would have evolved into more a chemist like modern day Joker and has female goons.

Batman in BTAS is nerfed. Somehow when it comes to certain opponents or episodes, Batman just forgets what he has or is able to do. I dont hold BTAS in that high of regard.

BTAS Batman would probably not even qualify as a foot soldier.

[Tzigone]

B:TAS Ivy would get wrecked by Batman if she only uses her crossbrow. Batman has trained himself to disarm opponents with guns. Batman grappling gun alone would shoot faster than her crossbow. Batarangs would also be good enough to do the job. Thats not mentioning Batman's standard gears like Flashbang and other stuffs. Even with her mutant plants, Batman would just spam herbicide & incendiary grenades. If Ivy had been more of a gadget user, i guess she would have evolved into more a chemist like modern day Joker and has female goons.

Batman in BTAS is nerfed. Somehow when it comes to certain opponents or episodes, Batman just forgets what he has or is able to do. I dont hold BTAS in that high of regard.

BTAS Batman would probably not even qualify as a foot soldier.

I think modern Batman is WAY overpowered, so we're simply different types of fans. I hate Batgod so much. For me, he should be the world's best detective, but not the world's best anything else (though certainly very good at numerous things). And frankly, both guns and crossbows should work at a distance Batman can't disarm from (and I'm not an armor fan, at least if stronger than kevlar) - that's the entire point of ranged weaponry.

I miss the days when a half-dozen thugs could be a credible threat to Batman (at least when the plot demanded it). I like him as a good street-level hero, too, you know?

For the record, I also would like quite a few powered heroes to go back to older levels of power. Not necessarily their lowest ever, but lower than current. But most of them don't have irk me the way Batgod does, because other heroes aren't nearly so likely to be consistently sacrificed/nerfed to make them look good.

[Riv86672]

Not into it because I Am Suicide already showed how Scarface work if it's just in Arnold's head. He doesn't need the puppet, just a sock puppet, or even, just his palm, and it's scary. I love it.

^^^Basically this, yes.

A supernatural explanation wouldn’t upset me or anything, but a psychological explanation is way creepier.

[prepmaster]

And frankly, both guns and crossbows should work at a distance Batman can't disarm from (and I'm not an armor fan, at least if stronger than kevlar) - that's the entire point of ranged weaponry.

But Batman should absolutely have no problem dealing with crossbow. He has more than enough gears to deal with enemies with ranged weapons. Batman must at least be prepared for that. If he cant disarm them at a certain range, he will use other gears to help him to get close to them. Him spamming various kinds of Batarangs alone would make him just more than good enough to take on opponents with ranged weapons. Batman uses Batarangs to disarm thugs (and knock them out) all the times.

I dont want a Batman that somehow just forgets that he has various kinds of Batarangs and is skilled at using them.

I want a Batman that knows what he is doing rather than a Batman that relies on deus ex machina.

[Tzigone]

If he cant disarm them at a certain range, he will use other gears to help him to get close to them.

If they aren't within range for him to disarm them, then they should not be in range for him somehow get them closer to him. I want Batman that doesn't depend on people with long-range weaponry being stupid enough to get within his short/medium range so he can take away their long-range weapon instead of just using them when he was too far away to do anything.

I want a Batman that knows what he is doing rather than a Batman that relies on deus ex machina.

I think Batman often is a deux ex machina at this point - doesn't matter if it makes sense for him to be able to do a thing, he's always able to do it. Secretly had a plan that made it possible - even if that means all the other characters had to be morons for it work. I could forgive it if were just the villains, but they make other heroes less capable and less moral so he can outshine them, too, and that is so not okay with me.

Not to mention that Batman not-incredibly-rarely does things humans simply cannot do (speed or strength wise), no matter if they are Olympic-level or not. Happens with some other Bats, too.

[Lightning Rider]

I prefer when it's unknown if Scarface is "real" or if Wesker really is "controlling" the puppet. I believe there have been some instances where Wesker has been knocked out, but the puppet keeps going. Just adds to the creep factor of the doll. In short, I like the ambiguity behind their connection, and I'd prefer that it remained ambiguous.

My thoughts exactly. It's really creepy either way, and the uncertainty just multiplies that.

[prepmaster]

If they aren't within range for him to disarm them, then they should not be in range for him somehow get them closer to him. I want Batman that doesn't depend on people with long-range weaponry being stupid enough to get within his short/medium range so he can take away their long-range weapon instead of just using them when he was too far away to do anything.

Batman used to deal with assassins like Deadshot on a regular basis. Batman isnt gonna get sniped.

If you make Batman too grounded, he would die in the first shoot out or get sniped.

[williamtheday]

I remember Roy Thomas retconned Vigilante's arch foe, The Dummy, into a real walking talking dummy. Is that still the case, or has it been retconned again?

[Dav85]

I would prefer if the mystique about it would remain